How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[D Mylchreest]

And which of those produced steam coal?

Dunno but you could try the internet

 

[Ben Rhydding]

"How viable are preserved railways?" Sufficient that they can afford to turn away business? This summer I have had three almost identical experiences. Presenting myself at the booking offices at Welshpool, Bo`ness and Bolton Abbey, I have been refused a ticket on the grounds that the train is full and told that I must wait for the next one typically two hours later.

In each case, having asked the guard, I boarded the train along with one or two other customers who had declined to be put off. W&L was pretty full and the guard said I would have to stand the whole way. Actually I had a block of three seats to myself. At Bo`ness, I was one of five passengers in the entire carriage. At Bolton Abbey, I was able to choose between five blocks of four empty seats. But what about the customers who had been less persistent and simply gone away?

Is this a hang over from covid? Is it a system designed to deter people who don`t book on line? It seems pretty mad.

 

[12C]

"How viable are preserved railways?" Sufficient that they can afford to turn away business? This summer I have had three almost identical experiences. Presenting myself at the booking offices at Welshpool, Bo`ness and Bolton Abbey, I have been refused a ticket on the grounds that the train is full and told that I must wait for the next one typically two hours later.

In each case, having asked the guard, I boarded the train along with one or two other customers who had declined to be put off. W&L was pretty full and the guard said I would have to stand the whole way. Actually I had a block of three seats to myself. At Bo`ness, I was one of five passengers in the entire carriage. At Bolton Abbey, I was able to choose between five blocks of four empty seats. But what about the customers who had been less persistent and simply gone away?

Is this a hang over from covid? Is it a system designed to deter people who don`t book on line? It seems pretty mad.

I had a very similar experience at Embsay last year. Arrived with the kids and was also refused a ticket for the train we planned to catch as it was “full”. Then watched said train depart at less than 50% capacity.

Utter madness, and yes sadly a hangover from Covid.

Luckily the KWVR up the road returned to normal as soon as possible and despite being much busier it has never been an issue to buy a ticket on the day there.

 

[nferguso]

Successful heritage railways understand that their industry sector is not transportation services but showbusiness.

 

[duffield]

I just totted it up and I spent around £2000 at heritage railways last year. None of it went to any of these lines with ridiculous rules and restriction like those mentioned in the last few posts, and none of it ever will.

Any service with "all seats booked" will *always* have some spare seats in practice, and some of us are quite happy to stand if necessary. Just warn people when buying their ticket and leave it up to them. If you really, really must, maybe only allow a small extra quota beyond the seating capacity to ensure those who've paid for a reserved seat don't feel crowded. As it is, you're turning away "free money" from the relatively small number of people who turn up to a "pre-book" railway on the day, and probably ensuring they will never visit - pre-book or not - in the future.

 

[Djgr]

I had a very similar experience at Embsay last year. Arrived with the kids and was also refused a ticket for the train we planned to catch as it was “full”. Then watched said train depart at less than 50% capacity.

Utter madness, and yes sadly a hangover from Covid.

Luckily the KWVR up the road returned to normal as soon as possible and despite being much busier it has never been an issue to buy a ticket on the day there.

Certainly I have been swerving from the Ffestiniog railway since it turned into an Experience.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Successful heritage railways understand that their industry sector is not transportation services but showbusiness.

In which case their fares will be liable to VAT at 20% rather than zero rated. Is that really their understanding?

The railway upon which I volunteer provides zero rated passenger transport.

And does showbusiness turn away customers when there are plenty of empty seats?

 

[nferguso]

In which case their fares will be liable to VAT at 20% rather than zero rated. Is that really their understanding?

The railway upon which I volunteer provides zero rated passenger transport.

And does showbusiness turn away customers when there are plenty of empty seats?

Are you upset about something?

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Yes I am upset about travelling a considerable distance to a preserved railway only to be refused travel because the "train is full" when it is no such thing - and it wouldn`t actually matter if it was. I`m also upset at learning of heritage railways in financial difficulties when I can see them turning paying customers away. And I`m none too pleased at seeing railways risking the zero rating of fares by advertising their services as something other than passenger transport.

But there`s nothing I can do about this. All I can do is turn up when I`m rostered on my railway which does not send customers away telling them the train is full when there are plenty of empty seats. In fact, it doesn`t turn them away on the rare occasion that the train really is full. It just does its best to accommodate them.

 

[bramling]

I just totted it up and I spent around £2000 at heritage railways last year. None of it went to any of these lines with ridiculous rules and restriction like those mentioned in the last few posts, and none of it ever will.

Any service with "all seats booked" will *always* have some spare seats in practice, and some of us are quite happy to stand if necessary. Just warn people when buying their ticket and leave it up to them. If you really, really must, maybe only allow a small extra quota beyond the seating capacity to ensure those who've paid for a reserved seat don't feel crowded. As it is, you're turning away "free money" from the relatively small number of people who turn up to a "pre-book" railway on the day, and probably ensuring they will never visit - pre-book or not - in the future.

I can see both sides of this one. If you’re paying for an “experience”, as opposed to a transportation service, there’s a reasonable expectation of having an enjoyable experience, which it probably won’t be if the train is absolutely packed.

It’s a difficult problem to solve, as there’s always going to be spikes in demand, along with factors such as weather, and to add to that not all railways have the flexibility to lengthen their formations.

But I guess it comes down a trade-off whether the maximum revenue comes from filling every train to the maximum extent possible and potentially sacrificing some repeat business, or running with space. Presumably these railways will have some idea what the optimum balance is.

That’s before the whole issue of coach parties arises, which can upset things even more, and indeed if you look at trip adviser is often a source of complaints.

 

[simonw]

Dunno but you could try the internet

It was rhetorical

 

[35B]

I had a very similar experience at Embsay last year. Arrived with the kids and was also refused a ticket for the train we planned to catch as it was “full”. Then watched said train depart at less than 50% capacity.

Utter madness, and yes sadly a hangover from Covid.

Luckily the KWVR up the road returned to normal as soon as possible and despite being much busier it has never been an issue to buy a ticket on the day there.

I visited Embsay recently; it's nothing to do with Covid and everything to do with a a system that is very strongly focused on pre-booked "experience" visits, and leaves little or no room for turn up & go visits such as this. I'd done homework, found the volunteers and staff wonderfully friendly and welcoming, but still found that my experience as a visitor didn't really match that from the KWVR later in the day.

Reverting to the title of the topic, it is a model that appears to be working well for Embsay with reports that it is now much more profitable. However, that economic viability also brings other costs, and I remain to be convinced about the impact on volunteering.

 

[eldomtom2]

I can see both sides of this one. If you’re paying for an “experience”, as opposed to a transportation service, there’s a reasonable expectation of having an enjoyable experience, which it probably won’t be if the train is absolutely packed.

I don't think the average visitor attraction plans to leave seats empty when it could fill them...

 

[Backroom_boy]

No idea of the local politics, finances of the company/society and strength of volunteers but if the Epping to Ongar railway can work out how to make a smooth connection with the central line, its location has a lot of potential and possibly could become the heritage railway with highest number of visitors arriving by public transport.

However I think its a big if; looks quite complicated on the ground.

 

[D6130]

However I think its a big if; looks quite complicated on the ground.

.... especially as the section between North Weald and Epping Forest is currently closed due to the poor condition of the track.

 

[35B]

I don't think the average visitor attraction plans to leave seats empty when it could fill them...

But if they've been sold regardless of whether occupied?

 

[bramling]

I visited Embsay recently; it's nothing to do with Covid and everything to do with a a system that is very strongly focused on pre-booked "experience" visits, and leaves little or no room for turn up & go visits such as this. I'd done homework, found the volunteers and staff wonderfully friendly and welcoming, but still found that my experience as a visitor didn't really match that from the KWVR later in the day.

Reverting to the title of the topic, it is a model that appears to be working well for Embsay with reports that it is now much more profitable. However, that economic viability also brings other costs, and I remain to be convinced about the impact on volunteering.

I can see how it would actually work at Embsay, being a relatively small railway that only goes from A to B and back to A. It probably wouldn’t work if they ever extend to Skipton.

 

[Krokodil]

it's nothing to do with Covid and everything to do with a a system that is very strongly focused on pre-booked "experience" visits

Covid was in many cases the catalyst, though the concept exists in other countries too.

But if they've been sold regardless of whether occupied?

Certain airlines wouldn't mind

 

[bramling]

I don't think the average visitor attraction plans to leave seats empty when it could fill them...

The difficulty is that if you pack every train to capacity (which, fortunately, realistically isn’t going to happen in practice) eventually you are going to lose repeat business.

Honesty, who wants to go for a leisure day out on something akin to their crowded commute?

A lot of people will have the expectation of having a bay of four, or a compartment, to themselves - at least in terms of their group. It might be one thing to have the odd person standing in a doorway, but having passengers standing down aisles or every single seat taken just isn’t going to be popular. It might work in an area with a very high tourist turnover, but it isn’t going to work universally.

This is the problem with the post-Covid model which we have in some places now. It’s marketed as an “experience”, and in a lot of cases these experiences are sold at somewhat inflated prices compared to what they might have been in the past. There has to be some attempt at providing quality.

 

[Belperpete]

Honesty, who wants to go for a leisure day out on something akin to their crowded commute?

It might be one thing to have the odd person standing in a doorway, but having passengers standing down aisles or every single seat taken just isn’t going to be popular. It might work in an area with a very high tourist turnover, but it isn’t going to work universally.

This is one of the things that has put me off travelling on the NYMR, as I have seen too many reviews complaining about people having to stand, people who have prebooked not getting a seat or even not getting on the train because they have filled the train up with people who book on the day. If I have taken the trouble to book in advance and then travel a considerable distance to get to the railway, then I expect to get a seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2025 ==

Yes I am upset about travelling a considerable distance to a preserved railway only to be refused travel because the "train is full" when it is no such thing - and it wouldn`t actually matter if it was. I`m also upset at learning of heritage railways in financial difficulties when I can see them turning paying customers away. And I`m none too pleased at seeing railways risking the zero rating of fares by advertising their services as something other than passenger transport.

Is it possible that seats were reserved for a pre-booked group joining at one of the intermediate stations?

You might not mind standing, but others might mind you standing around them. I have seen reviews complaining about feeling like they were on a claustrophobic commuter train rather than a leisure trip.

 

[The_Van]

No idea of the local politics, finances of the company/society and strength of volunteers but if the Epping to Ongar railway can work out how to make a smooth connection with the central line, its location has a lot of potential and possibly could become the heritage railway with highest number of visitors arriving by public transport.

However I think its a big if; looks quite complicated on the ground.

They have been trying to get permission for a station at Epping Glade for many years now, AFAIK the issues are with London Underground although it's certainly been much quieter on this proposal since covid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2025 ==

.... especially as the section between North Weald and Epping Forest is currently closed due to the poor condition of the track.

The timetable for this weekends Steam gala has trains running in to the Forest again

 

[Falcon1200]

If I have taken the trouble to book in advance and then travel a considerable distance to get to the railway, then I expect to get a seat.

Unless every train is made reservation-only, and non-bookers are turned away, there can be no guarantee of getting a seat, or indeed the preferred bay of 4 or secluded compartment - Can heritage railways really afford to restrict numbers in such a way, and is it actually really necessary? Having said that, I normally attend Gala events only, when trains can indeed be very busy, but I expect that.

I have only once encountered the 'train is full' refusal to sell me a ticket; This, bizarrely, was on a Gala Day too! Having travelled a long way I was told that there might not be space on the train, when it actually arrived there was plenty of room and I got a bay of 4 to myself! The railway concerned was lucky I didn't abandon my plans and spend my money elsewhere.

 

[Dave W]

Re VAT treatment - have HMRC ruled that out and back railway tickets are standard rated? I would think that's exceptionally hard to define, and potentially open to challenge at tribunal.

(I'm thinking somewhere like Ribble Steam Railway where no alighting is possible outwith the main station)

HMRC guidance isn't clear - the distinction is only made between railways in their own right and those as part of a wider attraction (such as a railway at a theme park): https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-transport/vtrans030600

VTRANS030600 - Passenger transport connected with recreational activities or airport car parking: Preserved railways
Because many preserved railways function as public transport systems it was not possible to include specific rules on historic preserved railways in the legal drafting of Note 4A to Group 8. They therefore present several potential borderline problems, since they may provide zero-rated passenger transport services similar to those of normal scheduled train services, or standard-rated transport within a place of entertainment etc such as a theme park, or their own premises may themselves be a place of entertainment etc, rendering fares associated with admission to the premises standard-rated.

Zero-rated passenger transport.
Where a preserved railway provides a timetabled service between stations at which passengers can board and alight, and the railway is not within a place or entertainment or interest as defined in VTRANS030400, the service is one of passenger transport and is zero-rated. This remains the case where minor additional facilities are supplied in the course of the journey: such facilities are not considered to create a place of entertainment or interest in their own right.

Examples are:

Santa Specials (mince pie, drink, present from Santa);
Winter Warmers (soup);
Hogmanay Specials (whisky or other alcoholic drink); and
Historic Train days where the rolling stock used for transporting passengers is from a particular period. Displays of shunting etc may be given.
In addition to their usual services, many preserved railways hold special events at stations which may differ widely from year to year. The scale of many of these is minimal and does not prevent any associated transport benefiting from zero-rating. Examples of events which do not create a place of entertainment or interest and allow fares to remain zero-rated are:

Thomas the Tank Engine days, where the rolling stock is decorated with character faces and which may include appearances by the Fat Controller, Mrs Kyndley, a Punch and Judy show and clowns;
Postman Pat days, where Postman Pat loads mail onto a train; and
Behind the Scenes weekends which give customers access to workshops, signal boxes etc.
This list is not exhaustive.

Top of page

Standard-rated passenger transport
Transport within a place of entertainment or interest
Passenger transport provided using preserved trains within any of the places of entertainment or interest listed in VTRANS030400 is standard-rated when supplied by the person granting admission to, or the right to use the facilities of, the place of entertainment, or by a person connected with him.

If the railway is operated within a place of entertainment independent of the person granting admission to, or the right to use the facilities of, the place of entertainment the supply maybe zero-rated as transportation.

Where such a railway runs in a park for which there is no admission charge, but where the railway is one of many facilities (such as crazy golf, putting, croquet, radio boats etc) for which a single charges is made for use of all the facilities by the person operating the railway that will be a single standard-rate supply.

“Experiences”
Some preserved railways provide “experience” events, such as learning to drive a steam train. This type of event will be standard-rate as it is not a supply of transport.

A railway as a place of entertainment or interest in its own right
The provision of facilities or events of a significant scale at a station may potentially turn it into a place of entertainment or interest in its own right and thereby render fares and other charges to and from that place standard-rated. Most facilities at stations or other premises, however, are likely to be small scale.

Examples are a children’s playground, or a “museum” or “exhibition” which is little more than an enhanced storage shed where rolling stock which is not in use can be viewed by the public.

Such facilities are regarded as incidental to zero-rated transport if included in the ticket price. However, a full scale permanent theme park, museum or exhibition, or a major event such as a county fair, agricultural show, or antique or craft fair held on railway premises could be of sufficient scale to amount to a place of entertainment or interest in its own right. For example, in a decided case, a railway storage shed at a station was registered with the Museum Commission as a museum and the fare included admission to it. It contained seven tracks some 80 metres long. Four were used simply for storage but the remaining three had nose to tail high quality exhibits of historic railway engines and carriages. It was ruled that the fares were standard rated.

Each case will need to be judged on its own facts.

 

[John Luxton]

Certainly I have been swerving from the Ffestiniog railway since it turned into an Experience.

As a member of both the FRS and WHRS I wasn't to happy about the Expereince Model - but it has been adapted and there is a published timetable. It isn't the first one one comes to on the web site but lurks as a PDF file. Thus one can see what is operating on what days. They really should post a copy of this at each station though. It would cost little and would provide details for those without access to smartphones or a signal.

You can just turn up and each train has a one carraige for non booked passengers. I have turned up three times on a Conwy Valley line train and given the tight connection at Blaenau have never booked in advance but have managed to get a ticket on each occasion.

On the face of it the FWHR is running an experience model - but scratch the surface it is also offering a normal but not very well advertised service.

 

[bramling]

As a member of both the FRS and WHRS I wasn't to happy about the Expereince Model - but it has been adapted and there is a published timetable. It isn't the first one one comes to on the web site but lurks as a PDF file. Thus one can see what is operating on what days. They really should post a copy of this at each station though. It would cost little and would provide details for those without access to smartphones or a signal.

You can just turn up and each train has a one carraige for non booked passengers. I have turned up three times on a Conwy Valley line train and given the tight connection at Blaenau have never booked in advance but have managed to get a ticket on each occasion.

On the face of it the FWHR is running an experience model - but scratch the surface it is also offering a normal but not very well advertised service.

What has (for me) spoiled the FR is that they no longer attach one or two older carriages to the Ffestiniog end of the train, as used to be fairly standard practice for many years through the summer. This provided a bit of extra capacity whilst offering a nod to enthusiasts.

So essentially the only way you can travel the entire length of the line in a historic carriage is on the Bygones weekend. Similar applies to the WHR I believe.

 

[Belperpete]

Unless every train is made reservation-only, and non-bookers are turned away, there can be no guarantee of getting a seat, or indeed the preferred bay of 4 or secluded compartment - Can heritage railways really afford to restrict numbers in such a way, and is it actually really necessary?

It is not necessary to make trains reservation only to ensure that anybody who has paid for a seat actually gets a seat. It is really very simple, you only sell as many tickets as there are seats on the train. To keep on selling tickets long after all the seats have been filled is in my opinion verging on fraud.

I know that is how certain airlines work, based on experience of how many people fail to show. But at least if they get it wrong, they then offer financial incentives to travel on an alternative service.

 

[35B]

It is not necessary to make trains reservation only to ensure that anybody who has paid for a seat actually gets a seat. It is really very simple, you only sell as many tickets as there are seats on the train. To keep on selling tickets long after all the seats have been filled is in my opinion verging on fraud.

I know that is how certain airlines work, based on experience of how many people fail to show. But at least if they get it wrong, they then offer financial incentives to travel on an alternative service.

And if you sell a guaranteed capacity to a coach operator, whose coach is of uncertain load?

 

[SuspectUsual]

It is not necessary to make trains reservation only to ensure that anybody who has paid for a seat actually gets a seat. It is really very simple, you only sell as many tickets as there are seats on the train. To keep on selling tickets long after all the seats have been filled is in my opinion verging on fraud.

Please explain this in the context of the last NYMR departure from Whitby

 

[JGurney]

Please explain this in the context of the last NYMR departure from Whitby

Quite. Or from Newtondale Halt. Or from various stops along the Ravenglass & Eskdale or the Welsh Highland lines. Especially if advance booking from those stations is not possible.

 

[Krokodil]

And if you sell a guaranteed capacity to a coach operator, whose coach is of uncertain load?

When I worked in the booking office of a (non-heritage) tourist line, the group reservation was made in advance and the driver wrote out a cheque when they arrived and confirmed the final number.