How to explain 19(c) splits?

[Amy Worrall]

I was travelling from Macclesfield to London on the 7.56 train, holding the return portion of an off peak Rugby to Macclesfield, plus my season ticket (Berkswell to London Terminals, route any permitted).

The train manager looked at my tickets, and initially said I couldn't use them since the train did not stop at Rugby.

I said that I believed NRCoC 19(c) allowed me to use them, and called up the conditions of carriage on my laptop. He seemed willing to accept my explanation, and scribbled on my ticket, but in the mean time he had already sent a photo of the two tickets to his control.

Control replied with "Not valid; the routeing point for Berkswell is Coventry so I would expect the passenger to hold a peak time Macclesfield to Coventry return". (He showed me the message on his phone.)

I persisted in saying that I believed the tickets to be valid, and he took a photo of the NRCoC from my laptop screen and texted that back to his control. They did not reply again, so I was not asked to buy another ticket.

Nonwithstanding that I didn't actually need to rely on a 19(c) split (since the train did stop in Nuneaton, and my season ticket is valid via Nuneaton), how would I best go about explaining this in future? This particular train manager was very reasonable, and willing to push back on the response. I can foresee many others just taking the erroneous message from control at face value…

Interestingly, the bit I thought I'd have trouble with was the time of day an off peak Rugby-Macclesfield was valid, but nobody has questioned that at all!

 

[AlterEgo]

There's not much you can do in this situation. The controller has clearly over-thought the question asked of him, which is unfortunate.

 

[LexyBoy]

I generally explain that if one of the tickets is a season then the train does not need to call - generally this gets either a response of "OK you're the expert!" or "No it doesn't, I know the rules, but I'll let you off this time". Also, if the part of the journey I'm on when inspected is valid on one ticket alone I will usually show only that one.

Usually if someone is convinced they're right there's no point in trying to explain why they are not - it will just aggravate the situation since they feel they're being told how to do their job. I have yet to encounter someone who didn't "let me off" though, but I'd certainly not buy another ticket if I did!

It does seem a strange message back from Control: perhaps they didn't know where Berkswell is, or understand the journey being made? I don't see what relevance routeing points have either since Berkswell-London is obviously valid for Rugby-London.

 

[Amy Worrall]

It does seem a strange message back from Control: perhaps they didn't know where Berkswell is, or understand the journey being made? I don't see what relevance routeing points have either since Berkswell-London is obviously valid for Rugby-London.

I got the impression that they thought that 19(c) only allowed splits at the routeing point for the season ticket. Which is not the case, but it would explain that advice…

 

[RJ]

Explain why the combination is valid, once.
Point the guard towards where the rule is published to help them out.

If they still don't listen you, tell then you are withdrawing from the conversation, once and leave them to it. From experience, even the most stubborn types will relent. Well either that or disappear to stew in their own juice.

 

[bb21]

Explain why the combination is valid, once.
Point the guard towards where the rule is published to help them out.

If they still don't listen you, tell then you are withdrawing from the conversation, once and leave them to it. From experience, even the most stubborn types will relent. Well either that or disappear to stew in their own juice.

I find that engaging them in a conversation why it is valid works better, but I have the ability to talk to them for hours if needed be about the Routeing Guide.

YMMV.

 

[Amy Worrall]

Issues again today. He clipped my ticket but told me it wasn't valid, and that he'd let me off today but I should think more carefully next time.

"Do we stop at Rugby? Answer me that?"
<I attempt to explain 19C splits, he cuts me off>
"40 years I've been doing this. 40 years it's been the same."

It worries me in case I encounter this train manager on a future week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Each time it happens make a formal complaint. They might eventually decide he is in need of some additional training, as it most certainly is *not* the same as 40 years ago. Indeed, it's not the same as a year ago - the NRCoT is more lenient on the matter than the NRCoC (though your combination is equally valid under both).

 

[Amy Worrall]

I should do. Each time this happens it makes me feel like I'm trying to 'get away with' something, when really what I'm doing should be legitimate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was a different TM this time to last time I had trouble.

 

[AlterEgo]

Issues again today. He clipped my ticket but told me it wasn't valid, and that he'd let me off today but I should think more carefully next time.

"Do we stop at Rugby? Answer me that?"
<I attempt to explain 19C splits, he cuts me off>
"40 years I've been doing this. 40 years it's been the same."

It worries me in case I encounter this train manager on a future week.

Sigh.

 

[Haywain]

Issues again today. He clipped my ticket but told me it wasn't valid, and that he'd let me off today but I should think more carefully next time.

"Do we stop at Rugby? Answer me that?"
<I attempt to explain 19C splits, he cuts me off>
"40 years I've been doing this. 40 years it's been the same."

It worries me in case I encounter this train manager on a future week.

There are often complaints and criticism on this forum about poor training, but I would argue that this is a case of having entrenched views. I doubt anyone would accept an argument that this individual has not had any training in 40 years! More concerning is that he will be seen as a 'senior' member of the guards community on that TOC and may be listened to by more junior members, and thus peer pressure takes over from training.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Assuming that the passenger is properly in possession of sufficient ticketing to permit the trip (i.e. is right), I wonder which approach has a greater likelihood of achieving the preferred outcome - namely that such member(s) of staff are properly disabused so that they cease their accusations:
(a) to complain in writing to the TOC every time the accusation is made
(b) to do nothing until the staff member actually escalates (eg by sending in reports, taking names, issuing penalties and so on) and then politely arguing it out with the relevant revenue department.
In other words - do TOC Customer Services people actually do anything with such complaints? And do revenue departments actually research properly and decide in favour of whoever is actually right (rather than blindly supporting the front line staff) and then proceed internally to prevent future occurrences?

 

[najaB]

Assuming that the passenger is properly in possession of sufficient ticketing to permit the trip (i.e. is right), I wonder which approach has a greater likelihood of achieving the preferred outcome - namely that such member(s) of staff are properly disabused so that they cease their accusations...

All things being equal, the latter approach is more likely to result in something happening since, as you correctly surmise, customer service advisors are more focused on dealing with the specific complaint in front of them and, generally speaking, have limited power to influence policy.

Letting the matter escalate means it's more likely to land on the desk of someone with the power to enact changes but this will likely only be after it has already been through the prosecutions team and potentially the court.

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed the second option is somewhat more high risk!

 

[SickyNicky]

Indeed the second option is somewhat more high risk!

Do you mean risk to the company? The worst (and probably best) outcome for the passenger is an appearance in court, which they will certainly win, and gaining a nice settlement from the TOC when they realise they've brought a prosecution which is clearly without merit.

 

[jon0844]

More concerning is that he will be seen as a 'senior' member of the guards community on that TOC and may be listened to by more junior members, and thus peer pressure takes over from training.

Reminds me of the many plane crashes where people just accepted what the senior member of crew said.

Also, to stay on topic, it reminds me of the ongoing problems at Paddington that some members experience (and still do) because you simply can't change the views of someone who refuses to listen, knowing best through 'experience'.

It's how bad habits form in people, of which I'm sure we're ALL guilty. We do silly things from time to time because, well, we always did and got used to it.

Edit: Also, isn't it time the link to the NRCoC PDF is redirected to the NRCoT file? Even if I search for NRCoT specifically, I get the old (July 2015) NRCoC offered to me to view/download. [filename: www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf]

The new URL being: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf (don't ask me why they decided to use spaces!)

 

[Puffing Devil]

Perhaps the new Conditions of Travel can be of use here. 14.2, the new 19(c) has this working bolded in the clause:

If you are using a Season Ticket [...] in conjunction with another Ticket [...] then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.​

If I encountered the same guard again, I would start the conversation with "The new Conditions of Travel came into force on the 1st October and deal specifically with this situation. Here's a copy of the rules...." The hand him a copy and let him deal with it.

If you still have issues - complain to the TOC. A tweet there and then can work wonders.

Question - anyone know where you can get a printed copy of the NRCoT? I'm thinking of something that looks official, not a home printed document.

 

[syorksdeano]

Quick question about these new rules.

I travel very regularly from Sheffield to Walsall and use a combination of Derbyshire Wayfarer and then Burton on trent to Walsall (saves a hell of a lot of money).

With these new rules would I be able to jump on the train that doesn't call at Burton on Trent now or don't the new rules cover PTE tickets?

Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

Do you mean risk to the company? The worst (and probably best) outcome for the passenger is an appearance in court, which they will certainly win, and gaining a nice settlement from the TOC when they realise they've brought a prosecution which is clearly without merit.

That will be the eventual outcome. However there is potentially a lot of stress, money and aggravation involved in getting there. Along with the non-zero possibility that the Court will make the wrong decision.

 

[jon0844]

That will be the eventual outcome. However there is potentially a lot of stress, money and aggravation involved in getting there. Along with the non-zero possibility that the Court will make the wrong decision.

In such cases, it would never make court. There would be an out of court settlement in your favour.

Indeed, I suspect in some cases where people are offered out of court settlements for £80, they'd also not proceed to court if you told them to stuff it. Not that I expect anyone would chance it, which is kind of why they offer these settlements! It's often a bluff, and they hold all the cards.

 

[Greenback]

I'd bring this up with the train company, point out that new Conditions of Travel, and suggest that staff need to be briefed more thoroughly to prevent pointless discussion and argument on board the train which simply wastes everyone's time.

 

[najaB]

In such cases, it would never make court. There would be an out of court settlement in your favour.

I agree that it shouldn't make it as far as court, and indeed it is highly unlikely that it would.

However, "shouldn't" and "unlikely" aren't the same as "never".

 

[Amy Worrall]

I've sent in a complaint via Virgin's website, so we'll see what happens. I pointed out that I'm not after compensation (since I was allowed to travel), but I'd like their staff to be appropriately trained, and I also asked for them to send me a letter confirming that my combination of tickets is valid. We'll see if anything comes of it.

 

[Haywain]

Quick question about these new rules.

I travel very regularly from Sheffield to Walsall and use a combination of Derbyshire Wayfarer and then Burton on trent to Walsall (saves a hell of a lot of money).

With these new rules would I be able to jump on the train that doesn't call at Burton on Trent now or don't the new rules cover PTE tickets?

Neither of the tickets you are using is a PTE ticket. However, it appears that the combination is now valid for a non-stopping train under new condition 14.2.

 

[talldave]

Although I'm not a fan of Twitter, it seems to be a good mechanism for getting the TOC's attention. Something along the lines of: "Can you explain why my valid combination of tickets is being refused yet again on your xxx service?"

 

[Merseysider]

Although I'm not a fan of Twitter, it seems to be a good mechanism for getting the TOC's attention. Something along the lines of: "Can you explain why my valid combination of tickets is being refused yet again on your xxx service?"

Yes, that normally works. There is however a growing tendancy among Twitter teams (especially TPE) to direct people to email/phone numbers for customer services, rather than engaging with the issue.

 

[Clip]

Yes, that normally works. There is however a growing tendancy among Twitter teams (especially TPE) to direct people to email/phone numbers for customer services, rather than engaging with the issue.

Thats because they are the proper channels to go to and a lot of twitter teams are not briefed on the intricacies of the ticketing system and by getting involved could give out the wrong information and or miss another tweet which is far more important or miss getting relevant information out quick enough.

By all means alert them to it via twitter but dont waste peoples time also on there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats because they are the proper channels to go to and a lot of twitter teams are not briefed on the intricacies of the ticketing system and by getting involved could give out the wrong information and or miss another tweet which is far more important or miss getting relevant information out quick enough.

By all means alert them to it via twitter but dont waste peoples time also on there.

I go to Twitter because on some TOCs it's run from (or has direct access to) their Control and problems actually get fixed.

Problems rarely get fixed by going to Customer Services. You just get an apology and vouchers 2 months later, of which I'm heartily sick when I want a policy or operational problem fixed.

In all areas of business, the "Customer Services Department" is mostly just a fob-off department. There are exceptions, but they are rare.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thats because they are the proper channels to go to and a lot of twitter teams are not briefed on the intricacies of the ticketing system and by getting involved could give out the wrong information and or miss another tweet which is far more important or miss getting relevant information out quick enough.

By all means alert them to it via twitter but dont waste peoples time also on there.

I can't speak for other TOCs, but I think Twitter would work better for Northern, even if they don't engage. I've seen no evidence that any complaints (or compliments) sent to Northern's Carillion's Customer Experience Centre has ever made it back to Northern. I also don't believe any of the Northern Carillion Customer Experience Centre staff have had any form of ticket training.

 

[RailAleFan]

I go to Twitter because on some TOCs it's run from (or has direct access to) their Control and problems actually get fixed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37602290

@ 02:30