How much to save a class 58

[DarloRich]

I dunno. I just think DBS could be doing a bit more. Would getting one 58 up and running break their bank? Would lots of enthusiasts love to have run behind one of them? (yes). If DBS were behind the refurb of a 58 it would be done in 3-4 months.

Its not asking much in my opinion. And there are some rewards to be had since DBS put quite a few locos on the front of charters.

I don't think many people in the railway industry care much about the railways at all. Just a load of big suits making crap loads of money and never thinking to be charitable with money or the things they control. Pretty lame in my humble opinion.

What you are asking DBS to do is expand a considerable level of time, resource and effort for minimal return. It isn't going to happen. You need to live in the real world of business i am afraid.

 

[richieb1971]

Yeah, DRS must be going under with the amount of restoration work they do. Kingmoor looks like a museum sometimes more than a current day depot.

The fact is, some people can be bothered, and some can't. I know which group I put DBS in. It would probably help if they were passionate British owned and patriotic, not just money grabbing suits.

If DRS can run a fleet of 20's, 37's and 47's I am sure DBS can get ONE of their 58's up and running.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's worth noting that 58050 is reserved for the National Collection, so sooner or later it should return to the UK and the NRM. Whether it'll be anything more than a Christmas tree at that point though, is another story altogether...

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yeah, DRS must be going under with the amount of restoration work they do. Kingmoor looks like a museum sometimes more than a current day depot.

The fact is, some people can be bothered, and some can't. I know which group I put DBS in. It would probably help if they were passionate British owned and patriotic, not just money grabbing suits.

If DRS can run a fleet of 20's, 37's and 47's I am sure DBS can get ONE of their 58's up and running.

The difference there is DRS have small fleets of those types of traction, not just a single unit and therefore crews are familiar with and fully trained on them, if DBS on the other hand restored a single 58 to mainline working order they would be stuck with what is now a non standard member of their traction fleet and probably no drivers or very few left with traction knowledge therefore what regular work would they employ it on? These complex machines have got to be kept active otherwise it will soon fall back into an unserviceable state.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[DarloRich]

Yeah, DRS must be going under with the amount of restoration work they do. Kingmoor looks like a museum sometimes more than a current day depot.

The fact is, some people can be bothered, and some can't. I know which group I put DBS in. It would probably help if they were passionate British owned and patriotic, not just money grabbing suits.

If DRS can run a fleet of 20's, 37's and 47's I am sure DBS can get ONE of their 58's up and running.

this is not a serious post surely. If it is it barely merits a sensible response and seems to contain no understanding of the world of business or current railway operations :roll:

DRS may have returned some "heritage" locos to traffic. Do you know why? Because they have work, PAYING work, for them. Why should DBS get one of their 58's running. Have they got paying work for it?

 

[talltim]

20s, 37s and 47s have their niches, mainly due to route availability and requirements for ETS. A 58 is more expensive to run and less flexible than a 66 without any of the benefits of 20s, 37s and 47s.
They are also less suitable for preserved lines, being air brake only and having neither steam or electric heating and are over-powered for most lines, thus using more fuel

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[CosherB]

..... profit margins and economics run today's railway.

All reasons why 58's will never run in the UK again in a commercial capacity.

I suggest our friend's efforts are directed to: http://www.c58lg.co.uk/

 

[6Gman]

The fact is, some people can be bothered, and some can't. I know which group I put DBS in. It would probably help if they were passionate British owned and patriotic, not just money grabbing suits.

I'm sure the DBS staff currently facing the possibility of redundancy would be unimpressed if their company decided to invest many thousands of pounds in refurbishing a 58 for the benefit of enthusiasts.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yeah, DRS must be going under with the amount of restoration work they do. Kingmoor looks like a museum sometimes more than a current day depot.

The fact is, some people can be bothered, and some can't. I know which group I put DBS in. It would probably help if they were passionate British owned and patriotic, not just money grabbing suits.

If DRS can run a fleet of 20's, 37's and 47's I am sure DBS can get ONE of their 58's up and running.

The only reason that DRS run forty to fifty year old locos is that they don't have the resources to buy enough modern stock to replace all their old locos. DBS is run quite rightly as a business and would get very little return on their money for spending a fortune restoring an obsolete loco. This has nothing to with being patriotic / British owned and everything to do with common sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure the DBS staff currently facing the possibility of redundancy would be unimpressed if their company decided to invest many thousands of pounds in refurbishing a 58 for the benefit of enthusiasts.

Well exactly! I'm sorry but some forum members are so far removed from reality it almost beggars belief.

 

[richieb1971]

Then the railway business is the most horrible business i've ever seen. It is ran in such a manner that a depot starts to look like a metal recycling bin. The assets that made it money are left to rot like a dead rat in the drain.

DRS don't just run old locos, they look ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!

There is a difference here that if you cannot see it, your so blind it beggars belief. There is room for DBS to hit some middle ground here. Or at least release the asset for the purpose of restoration or putting the loco in a nicer habitat at least.

 

[DarloRich]

Then the railway business is the most horrible business i've ever seen. It is ran in such a manner that a depot starts to look like a metal recycling bin. The assets that made it money are left to rot like a dead rat in the drain.

DRS don't just run old locos, they look ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!

There is a difference here that if you cannot see it, your so blind it beggars belief. There is room for DBS to hit some middle ground here. Or at least release the asset for the purpose of restoration or putting the loco in a nicer habitat at least.

I think you might be missing the point about a business and the purpose of it's existence.

 

[SWTH]

The DRS locos look smart because it makes good business sense to have tidy-looking machines. Nothing to do with pleasing enthusiasts.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[Ash Bridge]

All businesses are 'horrible'

As for 'putting the loco in a nicer habitat', it's not a living creature! It's an inanimate object. Not only that, it's probably a water damaged, vandalised and heavily corroded, inanimate object fit only for the scrap yard.

Well I'm now waiting here for the next suggestion...

Perhaps there should be a RSPCL (Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Locomotives ):roll: ....sorry, just collecting my coat now

 

[richieb1971]

Jokes aside, are DBS really in that much trouble?

I mean, they are the biggest operator in the UK and everything else i've read here suggests freight contracts are increasing.

And regardless of the jokey comments If I ran DBS's loco fleet I would have already put the word out that donating parts to preservation groups out of good will was a easy consideration. It would already have happened.

The scrap metal these locos are worth is a lot to us as individuals, but to DBS its really a drop in the ocean and its not enough to balance the books or stop the business from tipping over the edge.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Jokes aside, are DBS really in that much trouble?

I mean, they are the biggest operator in the UK and everything else i've read here suggests freight contracts are increasing.

And regardless of the jokey comments If I ran DBS's loco fleet I would have already put the word out that donating parts to preservation groups out of good will was a easy consideration. It would already have happened.

The scrap metal these locos are worth is a lot to us as individuals, but to DBS its really a drop in the ocean and its not enough to balance the books or stop the business from tipping over the edge.

Have you not yet heard about the Scottish coal traffic?

 

[87electric]

Jokes aside, are DBS really in that much trouble?

I mean, they are the biggest operator in the UK and everything else i've read here suggests freight contracts are increasing.

And regardless of the jokey comments If I ran DBS's loco fleet I would have already put the word out that donating parts to preservation groups out of good will was a easy consideration. It would already have happened.

The scrap metal these locos are worth is a lot to us as individuals, but to DBS its really a drop in the ocean and its not enough to balance the books or stop the business from tipping over the edge.

Is this guy for real?

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[richieb1971]

I did hear that some coal traffic had stopped due to government taxation or something similar, but thought it was a temporary state of affairs.

I thought the freightliner business was booming though.

So essentially Toton yard is going to be chocker with redundant locos including 66's?

I see I'm getting a lot of stick around here. So I'll just say that I wear my heart on my sleeve. Although money rocks and makes the world go round, it needs love sometimes as well. If the things you love are left to rot the world suddenly becomes a very miserable place. I couldn't be a billionaire and watch my fellow people struggle just like I couldn't be a TOC boss and watch British locos rot in a siding. I don't understand why anything railway related is so expensive and why humongous figures are sprouted around here. Based on that I can't see how the railway even makes a profit.

So to end this I will say to the OP "How much to save a class 58?" My response would be "they are beyond saving". Even if you had people that were willing to do the work for free, the TOC wouldn't sell the product for anything like a reasonable price and as soon you did reach the amount needed, some guy would say "I want £500 a day to to park your loco in my siding" that is doing nothing anyway. Its like a beaver dam trying to stop a tidal wave of BS.

The railways are going to hell.. and these forums are no place for rail enthusiasts like myself.

 

[headshot119]

I did hear that some coal traffic had stopped due to government taxation or something similar, but thought it was a temporary state of affairs.

I thought the freightliner business was booming though.

So essentially Toton yard is going to be chocker with redundant locos including 66's?

I see I'm getting a lot of stick around here. So I'll just say that I wear my heart on my sleeve. Although money rocks and makes the world go round, it needs love sometimes as well. If the things you love are left to rot the world suddenly becomes a very miserable place. I couldn't be a billionaire and watch my fellow people struggle just like I couldn't be a TOC boss and watch British locos rot in a siding. I don't understand why anything railway related is so expensive and why humongous figures are sprouted around here. Based on that I can't see how the railway even makes a profit.

So to end this I will say to the OP "How much to save a class 58?" My response would be "they are beyond saving". Even if you had people that were willing to do the work for free, the TOC wouldn't sell the product for anything like a reasonable price and as soon you did reach the amount needed, some guy would say "I want £500 a day to to park your loco in my siding" that is doing nothing anyway. Its like a beaver dam trying to stop a tidal wave of BS.

The railways are going to hell.. and these forums are no place for rail enthusiasts like myself.

Take it from someone heavily involved in railway preservation in the DMU sector. Shameless Plug. What people on this thread have told you is realistic.

No heritage railway can give enough "running days" to an air braked only, none ETH/ETS locomotive.

No tour company can give enough "tour days" to an air braked only, none ETH/ETS locomotive.

Not enough to give you the money you'll need to keep a locomotive in running order, after you've paid the cost of storage, movement, restoration, built up a pool of spares etc, paid your fuel bill etc.

 

[DarloRich]

Is this guy for real?

I am not sure to be honest!

Can someone truly have so little grasp of the real world or the world of business? This has to be a wind up - no one can be that naive surely?

So to end this I will say to the OP "How much to save a class 58?" My response would be "they are beyond saving". Even if you had people that were willing to do the work for free, the TOC wouldn't sell the product for anything like a reasonable price and as soon you did reach the amount needed, some guy would say "I want £500 a day to to park your loco in my siding" that is doing nothing anyway. Its like a beaver dam trying to stop a tidal wave of BS.

The railways are going to hell.. and these forums are no place for rail enthusiasts like myself.

None of that is true!

What needs to happen is someone with hardheaded business sense has to come up with a business case and funding to both meet the DBS contract price and then look after the locomotive going forward. The Class 58 Locomotive Group seem to have done that.

It isn't cheap but it can be done and is done on a regular basis. Going into something like this without understanding the cost implications will lead to bankruptcy very quickly - It isn't something individuals (unless they have deep pockets) should try!

What the TOC wont do is give away assets at a knock down price or free of charge. The assets have a value to the company and that value must be satisfied. It is all well and good being passionate about a type of locomotive but you have to understand that to the business that means nothing unless you are willing to pay.

PS - I wouldn't say you are getting stick what is happening is that people are offering you advice which you don't seem willing to absorb.

 

[richieb1971]

I don't hear advice. I hear a bunch of business minded people giggling because someone mentions charity, good will etc.

Anyway i'm done here. No amount of talking is going to change anything. In fact I doubt more than 3 people on this forum have any power to change anything that anyone is talking about. We are all just minions that like to talk about things we cannot control.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Then the railway business is the most horrible business i've ever seen. It is ran in such a manner that a depot starts to look like a metal recycling bin. The assets that made it money are left to rot like a dead rat in the drain.

DRS don't just run old locos, they look ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!

There is a difference here that if you cannot see it, your so blind it beggars belief. There is room for DBS to hit some middle ground here. Or at least release the asset for the purpose of restoration or putting the loco in a nicer habitat at least.

If someone wished to purchase a class 58 from DBS I dare say they would be able to do so. DRS look after those old locos because they are in daily service. The class 58's are redundant in the eyes of DBS so why should they prevent them from rotting away? How does it promote their business to stop them rusting? How do you think BR dealt with all those 9F's that were barely a decade old??

 

[90019]

I don't hear advice. I hear a bunch of business minded people giggling because someone mentions charity, good will etc.

Anyway i'm done here. No amount of talking is going to change anything. In fact I doubt more than 3 people on this forum have any power to change anything that anyone is talking about. We are all just minions that like to talk about things we cannot control.

How would you feel about losing your job because the company could no longer afford to pay you, while they're simultaneously spending many times your salary restoring some old kit to use on an occasional basis to ingratiate themselves to a some people who don't even use their services?

 

[6Gman]

How would you feel about losing your job because the company could no longer afford to pay you, while they're simultaneously spending many times your salary restoring some old kit to use on an occasional basis to ingratiate themselves to a some people who don't even use their services?

Quite.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't hear advice. I hear a bunch of business minded people giggling because someone mentions charity, good will etc.

Anyway i'm done here. No amount of talking is going to change anything. In fact I doubt more than 3 people on this forum have any power to change anything that anyone is talking about. We are all just minions that like to talk about things we cannot control.

you need to sort your antennae out then as i don't think anyone is laughing at you.

What people are trying to do is point out how, nice though it would be, your proposal wont happen in the real world. That isn't to say there isn't a place for charitable giving (I know DBS and other FOC/TOC donate time and skills to helping preserved railways) but rather expecting a company to simply give away something that still has a residual value to them( AND they have spent resources on repairing and transporting for you) is simply naive.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[trac]

This isn't just a UK issue ...... you should see what SNCF have stored at their yard in Rouen. wnxx reporting today (coincidentally) that there are 400 - 450 locos there in various states of repair / disrepair.

Thats an impressive collection - looks like there are some TGV driving cars and some sybics.