How much "new" capacity has the Elizabeth line actually gained?

[greatkingrat]

The main issue I have with Abbey Wood is that the design is appalling. Two separate island platforms with footbridge needing to be used in both directions to change.

Given Crossrail burrows into a tunnel a mile or so west of the station it is inexcusable. It should have emerged between the Southern lines like the Jubilee emerges between the Met lines at Finchley Road so the two island platforms have cross platform interchange. Then a turnback siding for crossrail between the Southern lines beyond the station.

If and when Crossrail is ever extended to Dartford, there will be conflicting movements between up Crossrail and Down Southeastern services restricting capacity, which would not have happened if a Finchley Road arrangement had been designed.

That's all nice in theory, but to do that would have required the existing line to be closed for months on end.

 

[21C101]

This is the problem below

No chance of crossing on the flat and no flyover exists to get to the Mains from the Crossrail tunnels.

In terms of capacity 10% uplift isn't a lot but remember Crossrail has been in the planning for decades, I read a book about it in 1991 and it goes back further than that, so the %uplift would have been greater than the 10% uplift on opening as capacity use was way lower even with the covid affected loadings of today.

That is certainly an issue in the short term although booting the freight off the slow lines during the day to create more slow line paths would improve matters without having to resort to new flyovers.

In the longer term do nothing isnt an option, once 16 trains worth of passengers from Manchester and the like start piling onto Crossrail to both Heathrow and central London at Old Oak Common.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==

That's all nice in theory, but to do that would have required the existing line to be closed for months on end.

I honestly can't see why, you slew the southeastern line over before the crossrail serices surface at a portal with the existing down line remaining in service until the new one is commission.

I suspect it was value engineering to save some money by having the portal half a mile further west than it would have needed to be if it emerged between the Southeastern lines.

 

[Stephen42]

Thanks. Would be interested to see more details of what the latest proposals are, if you know of any links (even though I appreciate they are unlikely to happen).

The only public info is the last consultation options available here, Option 1 is the one submitted in the business case end of last year. Quote of the text for Option 1 below:

Option 1 proposes that 8 of the 12 Elizabeth line trains per hour that will terminate at Abbey Wood are extended eastwards, sharing the existing North Kent line tracks with Southeastern and Thameslink services.

Of the 8 trains per hour, 4 would terminate at Northfleet, with the remaining 4 continuing on to Gravesend.

The Elizabeth line trains would stop at all the stations on the North Kent line between Abbey Wood and Gravesend.

This option would require some changes to the existing Southeastern service to reduce operational conflicts with the additional Elizabeth line services running on the North Kent line tracks.

The 2 trains per hour “circular” services, currently operating between the Crayford and Barnehurst lines and the Abbey Wood line, would instead be diverted to terminate at Dartford. The diversion of these services will require passengers wishing to travel between Crayford / Barnehurst and Abbey Wood to use rail services via Dartford or to use bus services.

This option would require the construction of some sections of additional track and junction works within the existing rail Corridor, significant works at Abbey Wood, Slade Green and Dartford stations and require additional land to accommodate additional train stabling facilities.

 

[21C101]

That's all nice in theory, but to do that would have required the existing line to be closed for months on end.

I honestly can't see why. Providing you divert the down Southeastern line before constructing the portal.

I suspect it was down to value engineering to save some money by having the portal further west than it would have needed to be if it emerged between the Southeastern lines

 

[ScotGG]

It was also altered to allow access to Plumstead sidings which were a late addition to the plan.

That and saving a few quid in the 2010 review by the coalition govt.

Can't see any great pressing need for an extension. Get 12 car trains from Medway/Dartford to Abbey Wood for a start. Thameslink use 8 and SE between 6-10 without utitilising max capacity.

New SE stock tender doesn't look like a net increase in stock so likely still have 8 car trains for many years.

Much cheaper way to increase capacity in next 10-20 years through longer TL and SE services linking to EL at Abbey Wood.

 

[AL1875]

People arriving at Old Oak Common from HS2 won't necessarily need a service from Heathrow to go Eastbound into London. There are also Reading services, Maidenhead services and that is before the Shenfield services are also extended.

 

[swt_passenger]

Given Crossrail burrows into a tunnel a mile or so west of the station it is inexcusable. It should have emerged between the Southern lines like the Jubilee emerges between the Met lines at Finchley Road so the two island platforms have cross platform interchange. Then a turnback siding for crossrail between the Southern lines beyond the station.

In fact that’s the way it was originally designed. I think the reasoning has been posted before, but a quick search hasn’t found it. It might have been to do with the relatively late decision to have a stabling location at Plumstead.

 

[hwl]

That is certainly an issue in the short term although booting the freight off the slow lines during the day to create more slow line paths would improve matters without having to resort to new flyovers.

In the longer term do nothing isnt an option, once 16 trains worth of passengers from Manchester and the like start piling onto Crossrail to both Heathrow and central London at Old Oak Common.

OOC will have 24tph Crossrail in few years time, half of which will terminate and turn back at OOC.

The main (fast) line stopping at OOC is all or nothing so the HEx services (if they still exist) will need to stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==


I honestly can't see why, you slew the southeastern line over before the crossrail serices surface at a portal with the existing down line remaining in service until the new one is commission.

Unfortunately the Plumstead depot access is in the way and trains coming in/out of the depot will use autoturn back (twice!) and ORR requite segregated (fenced) tracks for that now.
The Slade Green - Dartford 4tracking and flyovers is the expensive infrastructure work

I suspect it was value engineering to save some money by having the portal half a mile further west than it would have needed to be if it emerged between the Southeastern lines.

No, all to do with Plumstead depot as @swt_passenger has already said

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==

The only public info is the last consultation options available here, Option 1 is the one submitted in the business case end of last year. Quote of the text for Option 1 below:

That Option 1 has been the plan for the last 15 years, nothing has really changed apart from TL effectively taking 2 SE paths.

I'll try to dig out the older versions

 

[Sleepy]

Since Shenfield services started using the core do users feel the general time keeping/ reliability has fallen off a cliff ? Seem to be plenty of disruption messages coming through daily. How does delay attribution work compared to a normal TOC ?

 

[thomalex]

Since Shenfield services started using the core do users feel the general time keeping/ reliability has fallen off a cliff ? Seem to be plenty of disruption messages coming through daily. How does delay attribution work compared to a normal TOC ?

Would be interesting to see some actual stats on reliability since through running but I must admit it's not been great when I've used it recently. At Paddington yesterday it was chaos when I went down to the platforms, they were full of people and all the screens were blank. Given the overcrowding the platform screen doors wouldn't close so a westbound train was stuck and the stewards were shouting for quite some time until it managed to depart. There was no information on when an eastbound would be arriving. I gave up eventually and got the Bakerloo out of there.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Would be interesting to see some actual stats on reliability since through running but I must admit it's not been great when I've used it recently. At Paddington yesterday it was chaos when I went down to the platforms, they were full of people and all the screens were blank. Given the overcrowding the train the platform screen doors wouldn't close so a westbound train was stuck and the stewards were shouting for quite some time until it managed to depart. There was no information on when an eastbound would be arriving. I gave up eventually and got the Bakerloo out of there.

Same experience at Canary Wharf yesterday evening! I had to go into London to run an errand, for the journey back the planner suggested the Elizabeth line to Reading, then Thames Valley service as the best option. I was actually looking forward to my first 'through' experience. No - didn't happen. Got down to platform level, screens blank, confused staff, no trains running in either direction. When I managed to get to Paddington via the Bakerloo, noticed there were police milling round the Crossrail side of the station watching/dealing with the crowds, which were busy. Not very easy to get information on what is going on, and it's interesting to hear the displays at Paddington were blank as well.

Not long returned from a business trip to Stockholm - for all the Swedes moaning about their public transport their system was, frankly great. My experience yesterday doesn't bode well.

 

[Thirteen]

I do think it's a bit unfair to brand the Elizabeth Line as unreliable when the issues were out of its control.

 

[hkstudent]

I do think it's a bit unfair to brand the Elizabeth Line as unreliable when the issues were out of its control.

Indeed, the trespassing on western section was out of TfL's control. However, that also shows how vulnerable Elizabeth Line could be, with any point of failure at any section.

Hopefully with more Paddington terminating service to be allocated to Abbey Wood branch, at least half of the Elizabeth Line service can run to both southeast and northeast branches when there are issues on GW mainline.

 

[JonathanH]

Hopefully with more Paddington terminating service to be allocated to Abbey Wood branch, at least half of the Elizabeth Line service can run to both southeast and northeast branches when there are issues on GW mainline.

That isn't what happened yesterday though. The Shenfield trains just occupied Liverpool Street with five 345s in the station by 1735.

The issue appears to be the need to take trains to Westbourne Park to reverse.

 

[Chris M]

The Elizabeth line was also disrupted before the trespass incident due to a faulty platform edge door at Liverpool Street*. I was at Stratford trying to get to Harold Wood at about 2pm, but at least two consecutive eastbound services ran non-stop to Shenfield, presumably just to get some trains there to provide a westbound service. On the return journey, the train I was on called at Gidea Park, Stratford and then all stations, passengers for the skipped stations were advised to change for a train that would be starting from Gidea Park.

*This was reported as a problem with lineside equipment in some places, which while technically correct mislead me to thinking it was something (signalling kit? OLE mast?) between stations.

 

[21C101]

Since Shenfield services started using the core do users feel the general time keeping/ reliability has fallen off a cliff ? Seem to be plenty of disruption messages coming through daily. How does delay attribution work compared to a normal TOC ?

Inevitable. It was a segregated end to end service before with no functioning junctions. Now it is importing delays from both GE and GW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

In fact that’s the way it was originally designed. I think the reasoning has been posted before, but a quick search hasn’t found it. It might have been to do with the relatively late decision to have a stabling location at Plumstead.

If that is the case it is a real shame and lost opportunity.

 

[thomalex]

So the link tunnel at Bond Street is the latest to be graffitied

 

[plugwash]

In the longer term do nothing isnt an option, once 16 trains worth of passengers from Manchester and the like start piling onto Crossrail

I doubt it will be "16 trains worth of passengers". Yes OOC will be more convinetent for heathrow and some central London destinations than Euston, but my understing is the HS2 works will connect Euston Square with Euston, giving the newly expanded Euston station direct services to a large propotion of stations in Zone 1.

 

[hkstudent]

Inevitable. It was a segregated end to end service before with no functioning junctions. Now it is importing delays from both GE and GW.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==
If that is the case it is a real shame and lost opportunity.

By having separate platforms, that would allow Elizabeth Line trains reverse much easier compare to the mix platforms approach as crossover can be set closer to terminus.

Also, missing the EZL concourse at Country end

 

[thomalex]

Anyone know what is going on with the screens showing incorrect arrival times, as in the 3rd train supposedly arriving before the 2nd, I've certainly seen this a few times and I'm not the only one it seems!

https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1596454631831351297

 

[mrmartin]

Anyone know what is going on with the screens showing incorrect arrival times, as in the 3rd train supposedly arriving before the 2nd, I've certainly seen this a few times and I'm not the only one it seems!

https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1596454631831351297

Frankly embarrassing given the money and amount of software updates done. I cannot understand how it is so buggy.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Anyone know what is going on with the screens showing incorrect arrival times, as in the 3rd train supposedly arriving before the 2nd, I've certainly seen this a few times and I'm not the only one it seems!

https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1596454631831351297

Last week I was twice on the Elizabeth Line platforms at Paddington, and both times I noticed the first east bound train being described as two minutes away with the second train described as one minute away!

 

[greatkingrat]

I wonder if it something to do with the waits in the timetable outside Paddington, eg the system sees that a train from Reading is 1 minute away, but doesn't know it will stop and wait for several minutes before actually arriving?

 

[absolutelymilk]

I wonder if it something to do with the waits in the timetable outside Paddington, eg the system sees that a train from Reading is 1 minute away, but doesn't know it will stop and wait for several minutes before actually arriving?

Wouldn't that be the same for all the eastbound trains? I.e. it shouldn't result in the order being mixed up

 

[greatkingrat]

Wouldn't that be the same for all the eastbound trains? I.e. it shouldn't result in the order being mixed up

But half the trains are starting empty from the sidings, so it may be that train 1, from the sidings will arrive in 2 min as shown, while train 2, from Reading would arrive in 1 min if it had a clear run, but will actually sit outside the station for several minutes and arrive later, after train 1.

 

[absolutelymilk]

But half the trains are starting empty from the sidings, so it may be that train 1, from the sidings will arrive in 2 min as shown, while train 2, from Reading would arrive in 1 min if it had a clear run, but will actually sit outside the station for several minutes and arrive later, after train 1.

Ah got it, makes sense

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But half the trains are starting empty from the sidings, so it may be that train 1, from the sidings will arrive in 2 min as shown, while train 2, from Reading would arrive in 1 min if it had a clear run, but will actually sit outside the station for several minutes and arrive later, after train 1.

I think that's probably the reason.

One thing I experienced more than once is that when westbound trains for Heathrow or Reading/Maidenhead leave Paddington, they travel as far as Westbourne Grove and then sit there for a few minutes before proceeding. Can anyone offer an explanation?

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that's probably the reason.

One thing I experienced more than once is that when westbound trains for Heathrow or Reading/Maidenhead leave Paddington, they travel as far as Westbourne Grove and then sit there for a few minutes before proceeding. Can anyone offer an explanation?

Same as Eastbound. It’s a function of welding together two timetables that aren’t quite aligned. It gets resolved when the May 23 recast happens.

 

[stuu]

I noticed the trains displaying in the wrong order at Bond Street heading west last week

 

[DC1989]

Has the new timetable fixed the issues at the western ends of 5+ minute waits?