How much "new" capacity has the Elizabeth line actually gained?

[DynamicSpirit]

Has the DLR got a lot quieter from Woolwich Arsenal?

A great question. An irony for me is that, out of pure curiosity, I'd love to know the answer to that. But I never get to see because.... of course, now that the Elizabeth line is here, I never use the DLR any more!

 

[higthomas]

12tph is the max capacity for Abbey Wood as it has no turnback facilities, which means 12 tph for Shenfield.

How is it so low? Two track termini on LU can handle up to 30TPH or whatever the Victoria is at these days. I get that it might be a bit lower, but only a third seems crazy.

 

[306024]

How is it so low? Two track termini on LU can handle up to 30TPH or whatever the Victoria is at these days. I get that it might be a bit lower, but only a third seems crazy.

7 minutes turnround, 3 minutes platform reoccupation, equals one train off each platform every 10 minutes.

Now of course if you reduce the turnround time by having a new driver each trip, and work on two minutes platform reoccupation you can get more tph, but they still have to merge with the Shenfield service.

 

[Craig1122]

How is it so low? Two track termini on LU can handle up to 30TPH or whatever the Victoria is at these days. I get that it might be a bit lower, but only a third seems crazy.

345's are getting on for twice as long as tube trains which means double the time occupying the crossover on approach to the platforms.

Conventional rather than moving block signalling will reduce the capacity slightly.

High capacity tube lines use 'stepping back' at the terminus. This means there's always a driver waiting to take the train back out again rather than having to wait for them to change ends. This is probably the single thing which would theoretically let you increase frequency but it wouldn't be cheap.

Operating a publicly timetabled service rather than a headway frequency as per tube lines means you want a bit more slack in the system or timekeeping will be terrible.

 

[Bald Rick]

345's are getting on for twice as long as tube trains which means double the time occupying the crossover on approach to the platforms.

Conventional rather than moving block signalling will reduce the capacity slightly.

High capacity tube lines use 'stepping back' at the terminus. This means there's always a driver waiting to take the train back out again rather than having to wait for them to change ends. This is probably the single thing which would theoretically let you increase frequency but it wouldn't be cheap.

Operating a publicly timetabled service rather than a headway frequency as per tube lines means you want a bit more slack in the system or timekeeping will be terrible.

Also speed through the crossovers.

 

[Taunton]

Has the DLR got a lot quieter from Woolwich Arsenal?

Well not much, but one one hopes it will, because the DLR cut back the length of the trains at all times from three cars to two - which now gives significant dwell time issues at Canning Town where, unusually for the DLR, the stop point is right at the end of the platform rather than aligned centred on the entrances, and the rear of the train is in advance of one of the escalators, and causes large numbers, after years of admonishments to use the full platform length, to have to move forward to the back train door.

So crowding in the train is actually worse than before. I somehow don't remember this being presented as one of the Crossrail "benefits".

 

[DC1989]

Aren't they increasing DLR frequency from next year with the new trains?

 

[AzureOtsu]

Related from the discussions on passenger numbers...

It seems to me that there isn't actually a massive amount of new capacity into London on the EL. Obviously the core to abbey wood is all new capacity.

But on the GEML/GWML basically it's just replaced trains that stopped at paddington/liv st to continue onwards - not actual "new" capacity per se. I suspect in the next timetable change the 4 trains stopping at Liv St High level are indeed "new" capacity, and maybe the GEML/GWML slows have a more frequent service under EL vs previously (though not entirely sure of that).

I read some stat ages ago while it was getting built that it was increasing rail capacity into london by 10%, but I can't see that actually being the case, unless they are refering to the core -> abbey wood only? (which is really streching the defention of 'into london' IMO).

Didnt gwr only just start rolling out 387 didcot stoppers when the 345s entered service? before that it was a slow 2-4 coach turbo all the way out to reading, id call that a capacity increase

 

[Chris M]

Well not much, but one one hopes it will, because the DLR cut back the length of the trains at all times from three cars to two - which now gives significant dwell time issues at Canning Town where, unusually for the DLR, the stop point is right at the end of the platform rather than aligned centred on the entrances, and the rear of the train is in advance of one of the escalators, and causes large numbers, after years of admonishments to use the full platform length, to have to move forward to the back train door.

So crowding in the train is actually worse than before. I somehow don't remember this being presented as one of the Crossrail "benefits".

The length of DLR trains is independent of (but related to) Crossrail. The reduced the length of some trains so they could run more of them - there are simply not enough units to run every train as three cars. Even with every train to Lewisham being three cars long and running more frequently than before the route is still frequently standing room only on the Isle of Dogs at busy times, and Bank departure platform is no less crowded. The new link to the Northern and Central lines though has significantly improved the experience of alighting there.

The press release about the new timetable says under the heading about why they are changing the timetable:

We're changing the way we use our trains to better support how customers want to use our network.

On some routes, trains will be shorter but run more frequently. This will reduce waiting times while providing at least the same amount of space overall for customers.

Some journeys that previously used the DLR are now quicker via the Elizabeth line which has reduced crowding on some DLR routes. That means we can run shorter trains on these routes and instead use the extra cars elsewhere to offer more frequent and higher capacity services for a better overall customer experience.

We'll monitor the impact of these changes, including by reviewing customer and staff feedback.

If you are finding that the changes from Woolwich Arsenal are providing a less good service than previously then you should send that feedback in to TfL so that they are aware of it and can consider it as part of their monitoring.

Aren't they increasing DLR frequency from next year with the new trains?

The new trains are not due in service until 2024, and while they will certainly increasing capacity - they are getting more than the equivalent number of units* and each one has a greater capacity than an existing three car train - I don't know if the frequency will be increased (I'd be surprised if decisions on things like that have been made yet).
*Well they should be, but I read somewhere that the central government new homes and infrastructure commission (I can't remember the exact name) hasn't yet paid TfL the money they promised to have paid by now.

 

[stevetay3]

It’s still two services per hour off peak at my local (Taplow) so no improvement there . The 345s most likely have not many more seats than a 3 or 4 turbo at best, no internet connectivity, no power points and no toilets on these glorified cattle trucks. No toilets on most of the new central stations either, given the billions spent surely bogs could have been provided. As for journey times given the 5 to 10 minute wait to enter the tunnels at Westbourne Park a journey from say Slough to Paddington will most likely be quicker using GWR to Paddington then circle line to say Farringdon or Liverpool St thus avoid the lengthy walks through the tunnels to make connections. A replacement bus might be better than the walk from EL to LST. This line is totally alien to the elderly and disabled and needs to be avoided until improved . I suppose all we can expect at the moment is another 10% hike in fares.Sorry rant over.

 

[jeremyjh]

Typically services calling at Ealing Broadway from the Reading direction were formed of 1x 3-car 165/166 + 1x 2-car 165. Using info from the GWR Rolling Stock Guide, that's 259+159 = 418 seats and 56+86 = 142 standees. The 387s offer 448 seats and 460 standing places in 8-car formation.

The new EL trains have a stated capacity of 454 seated and over 1,000 more standing. Starting as far out as Taplow, I'd expect few inbound services are short of seats. 345s have much better accessibility than the trains they have replaced. It's far less likely that the wheelchair area, for example, will be fully occupied with standing passengers and it's always in the same place on the platform. There's level boarding in the central section too.

There is air-con and there will be wi-fi eventually. Admittedly it's frustrating that it's not already in place. There are additional peak trains at Taplow. The lengthy waits to get into Paddington will be reduced from the May timetable, and are hardly comparable to the interchange time at Paddington NR to/from the H&C line.

Plus, there's a lot more room for the significant number of people wanting to board at stations further in towards Paddington to board, and less need for them to do so given the increased capacity on routes to/from Heathrow. On these shorter journeys, not getting a seat is nothing new.

On the western section there are loos inside the gateline at Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham, Slough, West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington, Southall, Ealing Broadway, plus additional disabled facilities at further stations. The Heathrows have loos inside or outside the gated area. There are loos in the NR station at Paddington. There are loos at Farringdon inside the gated area. There are loos in the NR station at Liverpool Street. There are loos at Custom House, at Abbey Wood. There are loos at Stratford, at Ilford, at Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood and Shenfield.

I'm sorry, but to describe the 345s as glorified cattle trucks suggests that some plot has been lost. Suggesting the new line is *less* convenient for destinations on the route it serves than tube journeys with interchanges also doesn't stand up to reality. Not every last thing about the EL is perfect, but it's hardly a step backward.

[Edited in pursuit of complete, grammatical sentences]

 

[30907]

There is a contrast to be drawn with the Central Line extension, which actually cut capacity on the old LNER stations beyond Leytonstone

Not sure how you calculate that - number of seats perhaps? The steam service as far as Woodford was impressive, but less frequent than the tube service - and of course Leyton and Leytonstone had double that.

- a situation which would have been much worse had the suburban expansion of the 1930s bot been halted by WWIi and the Green Belt.

True. When I lived in Buckhurst Hill in the 80s the Central was extremely busy, but worst west of Stratford IIRC.

 

[stevetay3]

Typically services calling at Ealing Broadway from the Reading direction were formed of 1x 3-car 165/166 + 1x 2-car 165. Using info from the GWR Rolling Stock Guide, that's 259+159 = 418 seats and 56+86 = 142 standees. The 387s offer 448 seats and 460 standing places in 8-car formation.

The new EL trains have a stated capacity of 454 seated and over 1,000 more standing. Starting as far out as Taplow, I'd expect few inbound services are short of seats. 345s have much better accessibility than the trains they have replaced. It's far less likely that the wheelchair area, for example, will be fully occupied with standing passengers and it's always in the same place on the platform. There's level boarding in the central section too.

There is air-con and there will be wi-fi eventually. Admittedly it's frustrating that it's not already in place. There are additional peak trains at Taplow. The lengthy waits to get into Paddington will be reduced from the May timetable, and are hardly comparable to the interchange time at Paddington NR to/from the H&C line.

Plus, there's a lot more room for the significant number of people wanting to board at stations further in towards Paddington to board, and less need for them to do so given the increased capacity on routes to/from Heathrow. On these shorter journeys, not getting a seat is nothing new.

On the western section there are loos inside the gateline at Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham, Slough, West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington, Southall, Ealing Broadway, plus additional disabled facilities at further stations. The Heathrows have loos inside or outside the gated area. There are loos in the NR station at Paddington. There are loos at Farringdon inside the gated area. There are loos in the NR station at Liverpool Street. There are loos at Custom House, at Abbey Wood. There are loos at Stratford, at Ilford, at Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood and Shenfield.

I'm sorry, but to describe the 345s as glorified cattle trucks suggests that some plot has been lost. Suggesting the new line is *less* convenient for destinations on the route it serves than tube journeys with interchanges also doesn't stand up to reality. Not every last thing about the EL is perfect, but it's hardly a step backward.

[Edited in pursuit of complete, grammatical sentences]

The loos in the outer stations are hardly helpful to people in central London are they. As for access, it is not easy for us oldies that can still walk a bit, I would not attempt it in a wheel chair.

 

[345 050]

A great question. An irony for me is that, out of pure curiosity, I'd love to know the answer to that. But I never get to see because.... of course, now that the Elizabeth line is here, I never use the DLR any more!

I'd say that is probably one of the more noticeable shifts, along with the changes to patterns on central line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2022 ==

7 minutes turnround, 3 minutes platform reoccupation, equals one train off each platform every 10 minutes.

Now of course if you reduce the turnround time by having a new driver each trip, and work on two minutes platform reoccupation you can get more tph, but they still have to merge with the Shenfield service.

That's not a genuine constraint, there's no need to have the dwell times that long, stepping back can overcome this.

 

[matt_world2004]

The loos in the outer stations are hardly helpful to people in central London are they. As for access, it is not easy for us oldies that can still walk a bit, I would not attempt it in a wheel chair.

Paddington,Tottenham Court road, Farringdon,Liverpool street, Whitechapel, canary wharf, Abbey wood have toilets in the central section

You" oldies" providing your over 65 now get free travel as far as reading because of the Elizabeth line. That seems a pretty good deal

It's much more accessible for wheelchair users than the tube and the gwr that proceeded it in both the central and western sections .

 

[Wychwood93]

Paddington,Tottenham Court road, Farringdon,Liverpool street, Whitechapel, canary wharf, Abbey wood have toilets in the central section

You" oldies" providing your over 65 now get free travel as far as reading because of the Elizabeth line. That seems a pretty good deal

It's much more accessible for wheelchair users than the tube and the gwr that proceeded it in both the central and western sections .

There is an assumption that #cygnus44 is actually a resident of 'London' that gets that 65+ free travel. Those of us in that age group, outside of 'London', do not get the good deal. Many of us in that age group find toilet provision quite useful - wait until you get there!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You" oldies" providing your over 65 now get free travel as far as reading because of the Elizabeth line. That seems a pretty good deal

No they don't. The 60+ Oyster card is not valid beyond West Drayton.

 

[306024]

That's not a genuine constraint, there's no need to have the dwell times that long, stepping back can overcome this.

Err that’s what I said. But stepping back doesn’t come free, it requires more drivers. And for a 12 tph service on each branch isn’t necessary anyway.

The Liz line has a very onerous performance regime, which is why turnround times are planned to be the maximum the platform capacity will allow, to enable easier recovery from minor delays.

 

[matt_world2004]

No they don't. The 60+ Oyster card is not valid beyond West Drayton.

The 65 plus freedom pass does though

 

[stevetay3]

No they don't. The 60+ Oyster card is not valid beyond West Drayton.

Free travel not much good if we can’t get to the trains

 

[matt_world2004]

There is an assumption that #cygnus44 is actually a resident of 'London' that gets that 65+ free travel. Those of us in that age group, outside of 'London', do not get the good deal. Many of us in that age group find toilet provision quite useful - wait until you get there!

As I actually work at bus stops In London I am highly dependent on toilet facilities in stations which GwR try to prosecute people for using.

 

[stevetay3]

There is an assumption that #cygnus44 is actually a resident of 'London' that gets that 65+ free travel. Those of us in that age group, outside of 'London', do not get the good deal. Many of us in that age group find toilet provision quite useful - wait until you get there!

Cygnus44 lives in Bucks, no free travel here

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The 65 plus freedom pass does though

Ah yes you're right. My mistake - I hadn't realised that there were two different older-people passes.

 

[345 050]

Err that’s what I said. But stepping back doesn’t come free, it requires more drivers. And for a 12 tph service on each branch isn’t necessary anyway.

The Liz line has a very onerous performance regime, which is why turnround times are planned to be the maximum the platform capacity will allow, to enable easier recovery from minor delays.

I don't disagree with your point about performance, that makes sense. However, in theory it only actually requires 1 additional driver to be walking back along the platform, whilst the next driver comes into the station, and the earlier driver prepared the next train for departure. The trains are long, but they are not that long, walking from end to end on the platform may be 3 minutes or so. In reality if stepping back was used I'd imagine they might build a bit more resilience than just 1 extra driver.

 

[Class 170101]

But there won’t be any more trains from the WA side, so platform capacity isn’t an issue.

More likely the ARL side rather than GA West Anglia.

7 minutes turnround, 3 minutes platform reoccupation, equals one train off each platform every 10 minutes.

Now of course if you reduce the turnround time by having a new driver each trip, and work on two minutes platform reoccupation you can get more tph, but they still have to merge with the Shenfield service.

Any turnback facilities at Plumstead to help with turning trains or is it just Abbey Wood?

Not going to help the core if the Shenfield branch is closed if the maximum is 12 tph to Abbey Wood.

 

[Bald Rick]

More likely the ARL side rather than GA West Anglia.

There is zero chance for either, so they are as likely as each other!

 

[306024]

I don't disagree with your point about performance, that makes sense. However, in theory it only actually requires 1 additional driver to be walking back along the platform, whilst the next driver comes into the station, and the earlier driver prepared the next train for departure. The trains are long, but they are not that long, walking from end to end on the platform may be 3 minutes or so. In reality if stepping back was used I'd imagine they might build a bit more resilience than just 1 extra driver.

If you work it out over the course of a day it is more than just one driver. It also assumes the next train will take your driver to where they need to go. You are more likely to need your driver to step back two trains (especially if they are a GE based driver) which is all unproductive time in the diagram, and could be the difference between a diagram working or not. It also increases the hours in the roster, which may not be possible without adding more rest days, and hence requiring more drivers too. It really is a more complex subject than it appears.

Any turnback facilities at Plumstead to help with turning trains or is it just Abbey Wood?
Not going to help the core if the Shenfield branch is closed if the maximum is 12 tph to Abbey Wood.

All there is at Plumstead are carriage sidings that can only be accessed from Abbey Wood. If the Shenfield branch is closed on a planned basis, then you are back to the every 5 minute service you had before, unless you step back drivers at Abbey Wood to increase the service as explained above.

 

[matt_world2004]

If you work it out over the course of a day it is more than just one driver. It also assumes the next tran will take your driver to where they need to go. You are more likely to need your driver to step back two trains (especially if they are a GE based driver) which is all unproductive time in the diagram, and could be the difference between a diagram working or not. It also increases the hours in the roster, which may not be possible without adding more restdays, and hence requiring more drivers too. It really is a more complex subject than it appears.


All there is at Plumstead is carriage sidings that can only be accessed from Abbey Wood. If the Shenfield branch is closed on a planned basis, then you are back to the every 5 minute service you had before, unless you step back drivers at Abbey Wood to increase the service as explained above.

Of course if the Shenfield branch is closed you have enough drivers stepping back. As no one is driving the Shenfield branch.

 

[306024]

Of course if the Shenfield branch is closed you have enough drivers stepping back. As no one is driving the Shenfield branch.

Indeed But you may still need to get GE based drivers to Abbey Wood to help out.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Indeed But you may still need to get GE based drivers to Abbey Wood to help out.

Not horribly difficult tbh, main GE depot is at Ilford as I understand it.
Ilford depot to Barking (if the GEML Reliefs are the section out of action) is 15 mins on a bus, 5 mins down to West Ham on c2c, 7 mins to Canary Wharf on the Jubilee, then 11 mins to Abbey Wood. Max about an hour with padding.
Or 40 mins by car .
Either way, it's theoretical, but certainly it could be done. Expect you'd see more issues at the Padd end.