How many TOCs run DOO trains?

[scotsman]

Define National Rail (and provide a source).

National Rail, as in members of the Association of Train Operating Companies - the list of which can be found here

 

[pendolino]

Are Chiltern the only TOC who run services which are part DOO, part guard?

Southern run DOO to Dorking, where a Conductor jumps on for the last bit down to Horsham. And the South Croydon to Milton Keynes service is DOO between South Croydon and Clapham Jct. There might be other services, but those are the ones that spring to mind.

 

[scotsman]

Southern run DOO to Dorking, where a Conductor jumps on for the last bit down to Horsham. And the South Croydon to Milton Keynes service is DOO between South Croydon and Clapham Jct. There might be other services, but those are the ones that spring to mind.

NXEA certainly used to run DOO Liverpool St - Ipswich, then Conductor to Lowestoft

 

[150222]

Anglia/NXEA used to with the 170's.

 

[starrymarkb]

Are Chiltern the only TOC who run services which are part DOO, part guard?

Would this route provide a useful comparison of the safety of DOO versus guard protected services?

Southern do, FGW may still do so too

 

[150222]

FGW's class 166 operated services from Paddington to Worcester had a guard from Oxford.

 

[brad465]

I'm not sure if this counts considering all services travel mostly abroard, but Eurostar has no DOO based on my last experience.

The problem I feel with guards on companies like Southeastern is that they get out of the train to assess the platform of passengers, when clear he blows his whistle, beforehand locks the doors he's at open, then waits until all other doors are shut before getting back on and closing his. This costs time, which can easily be cut down if he just looked out the window of the rear cab of the train, or of the cab in another unit if there is one.

 

[313103]

Cheers Driver 9000 London Overground is indeed a National Rail train operating company. All staff are trained in National Rail rules, all trains are run to the National Rail standard, all signalling is run by Network Rail. London Overground is a concession. Instead of getting permission to do things from the Department for Transport, we get our orders from Transport for London.

With regard to DOO all train companies operate some form of DOO, even those that have Guards. All trains run empty stock which unless booked to have a Guard are operated in DOO mode.

 

[150222]

I'm not sure if this counts considering all services travel mostly abroard, but Eurostar has no DOO based on my last experience.

The problem I feel with guards on companies like Southeastern is that they get out of the train to assess the platform of passengers, when clear he blows his whistle, beforehand locks the doors he's at open, then waits until all other doors are shut before getting back on and closing his. This costs time, which can easily be cut down if he just looked out the window of the rear cab of the train, or of the cab in another unit if there is one.

The problem is that SouthEastern and certain other TOC's such as Crosscountry is that they operate on a semi-DOO basis where the driver opens the doors and the guard shuts them. Stupid system but there you go.

 

[scotsman]

The problem is that SouthEastern and certain other TOC's such as Crosscountry is that they operate on a semi-DOO basis where the driver opens the doors and the guard shuts them. Stupid system but there you go.

No, there is still a Guard onboard with all the same duties and responsibilities as any other commercial Guard. The difference being that the person who presses "Doors Open" and "Doors Close" is the Driver. The latter executed under the instruction of the Guard.

So, not semi-DOO at all

 

[68000]

Don't forget that a lot of non DOO services will not have it because of the lack of infrastructure (secure radio system, platform equipment). Every service will have a secure radio system to the signaller in the next 2-3 years.

 

[Eagle]

Define National Rail (and provide a source).

The brand used publicly by ATOC companies.
Source: National Rail website, ATOC website, DfT website, everywhere.

 

[TEW]

FGW's class 166 operated services from Paddington to Worcester had a guard from Oxford.

Quite a few services actually have guards to/from Reading, which otherwise could be a DOO section from Oxford. It is mainly because the guard train crew depot is at Reading.

 

[ji459]

Javelin HS1 service.

There's always been a guard on all the HS1 services I've ever used.

 

[notadriver]

I don't think they are proper guards, more like ticket examiners.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Quite a few services actually have guards to/from Reading, which otherwise could be a DOO section from Oxford. It is mainly because the guard train crew depot is at Reading.

They would still be operated as DOO trains though, surely? Guards often stay on trains in DOO areas for various reasons, revenue, diagramming, going to meet a train which does require a guard, but once a train reaches a DOO area then it will be worked (or at least dispatched) as a DOO train. A guard will still help with things like examining the line or placing protection if needed, obviously.

 

[150222]

I believe it is the case with thames turbos where the driver releases the door and the guard then buzzes the driver to tell him/her to close them. Similar to voyagers.

 

[Bellwater]

The problem I feel with guards on companies like Southeastern is that they get out of the train to assess the platform of passengers, when clear he blows his whistle, beforehand locks the doors he's at open, then waits until all other doors are shut before getting back on and closing his. This costs time, which can easily be cut down if he just looked out the window of the rear cab of the train, or of the cab in another unit if there is one.

It takes time but passengers using one door when seven are available, or taking an age to get off at same door, takes a bit longer.

NXEA I know have Guards diagrams where they do revenue only and work the train(doors etc)for the other part.

 

[Galvanize]

The problem is that SouthEastern and certain other TOC's such as Crosscountry is that they operate on a semi-DOO basis where the driver opens the doors and the guard shuts them. Stupid system but there you go.

Even then, on Southeastern services that have a conductor, the services are treated as "DOO" when in the London area! So, trains starting from say London Charing Cross or London Cannon Street are dispatched using the CD/RA method, with the driver opening and closing the doors. This arrangement continues upto Sevenoaks, then beyond Hildenborough, the conductor closes the doors, then goes "BING BING" to the driver!

Out of Victoria, the same arrangement applies as far as Swanley, for trains heading towards Rochester or Gillingham, or Otford, for trains heading towards Maidstone East or Ashford!!

Southeastern's Charing Cross-Gillingham services via Dartford and Gravesend, are DOO as far as Strood, where a conductor boards the train, however there are plans to make the service FULLY DOO!

There are a few Southern services that carry a conductor for part of the journey, such as the London Bridge-Reigate services. Most of them are DOO between London Bridge and Purley (some cases, East Croydon), where the conductor works the train down to Reigate. The same applies for certain London Bridge-Tonbridge services, DOO as far down as Purley, then a conductor boards the train. This does NOT apply for trains worked by Southeastern crew on that service!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I believe it is the case with thames turbos where the driver releases the door and then buzzes the driver to tell him/her to close them. Similar to voyagers.

They absolutely have the facility to do that, but are they worked like that? Maybe I am reading the original statement incorrectly, but I infer that "some" Banbury/Oxford - Paddington turbos will pick up a guard at Reading and some wont. To me that implies that the guard is on the train for reasons other than operational, because you wouldnt diagram some trains to run DOO and some to run conventionally manned if the traction, route and platform facilities are the same, surely?

 

[Aictos]

I'm not sure if this counts considering all services travel mostly abroard, but Eurostar has no DOO based on my last experience.

The problem I feel with guards on companies like Southeastern is that they get out of the train to assess the platform of passengers, when clear he blows his whistle, beforehand locks the doors he's at open, then waits until all other doors are shut before getting back on and closing his. This costs time, which can easily be cut down if he just looked out the window of the rear cab of the train, or of the cab in another unit if there is one.

There is a reason these trains are dispatched like that, there's enough Guards here to fully explain but in short it's done as safely as possible, you should never rush any procedure where the safety of the train and passengers is paramount.

By actually standing on the platform and observing all others doors have safely closed and no one is caught in the doors, the Guard can then close his door and bell their driver ensuring they stay at the door until the train has fully left the platform.

If you want to complain about the time, then you really ought to be complaining about the excess padding there is in some of the timetables out there.

 

[yorkie]

... and the Javelin HS1 service.

To be pedantic (sorry!) Southeastern (SET) was mentioned in post #2. The 'Javelin' shuttle service is not a TOC but a name to a shuttle service that will be operated by SET during the Olympics

SET deny that their HS1 services are DOO "This method of operation is not Driver Only Operation in the historic sense; we have defined this method as "Driver Controlled Dispatch‟" and stated that the train managers do have some safety roles. (Source: CIRAS)

 

[notadriver]

This is interesting. If you are the second crew member on the train but don't do the doors, are you a guard or not?

 

[TEW]

They absolutely have the facility to do that, but are they worked like that? Maybe I am reading the original statement incorrectly, but I infer that "some" Banbury/Oxford - Paddington turbos will pick up a guard at Reading and some wont. To me that implies that the guard is on the train for reasons other than operational, because you wouldnt diagram some trains to run DOO and some to run conventionally manned if the traction, route and platform facilities are the same, surely?

Guards work the services through to Reading simply because that is were they are based, there are no guards at Oxford so on some of the Cotswolds trains the guard would just have to pass up to Oxford anyway, instead they work the services from Reading. I'm not sure who controls the doors when a guard is on board from Reading to Oxford but they aren't just travelling passenger on the trains. When guards work 165s and 166s they do have to be despatched in the same way as voyagers, with the guard instructing the driver to close the doors.

 

[adc82140]

From a purely passenger perspective, from what I can hear from the rearmost saloon on a 165/166 on the North Downs Line, the guard buzzes the driver (x3 I think), the doors close, then the guard buzzes again (x2?) and the train departs.

I've heard both driver and guard do PA on the same train not that long ago, the guard doing the usual "next staion is" etc. and the driver explaining why we were going to stop right at the far and of the platform at one station.

 

[craigwilson]

No, there is still a Guard onboard with all the same duties and responsibilities as any other commercial Guard. The difference being that the person who presses "Doors Open" and "Doors Close" is the Driver. The latter executed under the instruction of the Guard.

So, not semi-DOO at all

No, what brad465/150222 said is right for the 375s, at least as far out from London as I am anyway. The 395s on the same routes do the "driver controlled dispatch" referred to by yorkie. I can't speak for the Networkers as I've not travelled in them often enough.

 

[cyclebytrain]

No, what brad465/150222 said is right for the 375s, at least as far out as I am anyway. The 395s on the same routes do the "driver controlled dispatch referred to by yorkie. I can't speak for the Networkers as I've not travelled in them often enough.

A 395 OBM that I know rather well told me that they are going to be there purely for "safety" and not checking tickets during Olympics, so I presume they have a safety role -could ask exactly what that means next time I see them, nut personally just accepted that they have a safety critical role.

 

[ainsworth74]

From a purely passenger perspective, from what I can hear from the rearmost saloon on a 165/166 on the North Downs Line, the guard buzzes the driver (x3 I think), the doors close, then the guard buzzes again (x2?) and the train departs.

THe bell codes would be buzz (pause) buzz buzz by the guard with the same code buzzed back by the driver (telling the driver to close doors and then the driver acknowledges). Then buzz buzz from the guard with the same buzzed back (which is the guard telling the driver that they are ready to start or basically that they should proceed if safe to do so).

 

[FGWman]

Guards work the services through to Reading simply because that is were they are based, there are no guards at Oxford so on some of the Cotswolds trains the guard would just have to pass up to Oxford anyway, instead they work the services from Reading. I'm not sure who controls the doors when a guard is on board from Reading to Oxford but they aren't just travelling passenger on the trains. When guards work 165s and 166s they do have to be despatched in the same way as voyagers, with the guard instructing the driver to close the doors.

Thats wrong I'm afraid. All Turbo services from Paddington to Oxford (and Banbury) are DOO. If there is a guard on board then they will only do revenue duties.

 

[BestWestern]

This is interesting. If you are the second crew member on the train but don't do the doors, are you a guard or not?

If you are trained in the Rulebook and competent to carry out the duties of protecting the train in an emergency, then you are the Guard. Operating the doors and dispatching the train are additional duties.