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How long should you have to alight from a train?

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Bletchleyite

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That depends on the consequences of them not being able to get off.

Quite. I pulled it a while ago at Birmingham Intl when the staff failed to turn up to let a cyclist off to connect onto the blockade buster. As it was quite late in the day and the train I was on was terminating at MKC, other than by cycling from there (a long way) he'd not have reached London that day, so I thought it completely justified to do so and the staff did not suggest otherwise, they just let him off and reset it.

I'd consider it justified in cases where the inability to alight was not the passenger's fault - e.g. unsigned door failures and the likes, particularly where the impact was high (last train of the day, infrequent service or perhaps elderly/infirm passenger or passenger with young children). Less so where the service was frequent and the passenger wouldn't be waiting long for a train back the other way.
 
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AM9

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Quite. I pulled it a while ago at Birmingham Intl when the staff failed to turn up to let a cyclist off to connect onto the blockade buster. As it was quite late in the day and the train I was on was terminating at MKC, other than by cycling from there (a long way) he'd not have reached London that day, so I thought it completely justified to do so and the staff did not suggest otherwise, they just let him off and reset it.

I'd consider it justified in cases where the inability to alight was not the passenger's fault - e.g. unsigned door failures and the likes, particularly where the impact was high (last train of the day, infrequent service or perhaps elderly/infirm passenger or passenger with young children). Less so where the service was frequent and the passenger wouldn't be waiting long for a train back the other way.

A voice of reason. I am however not a railwayman nor have I ever been one and I'm sure that in the profit driven rail system we have today, staff are given a hard time when their better judgement tells them to take actions that may cause delays (aka costs). The other side of the coin is that if the staff on the ground just ignore such events, unless there are very expensive consequences that the TOC cannot just ignore/wriggle out of, nothing is said, recorded or even admitted. The train/dispatcher staff are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
 

reb0118

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It may not be sensible law in action, but I can imagine a court case where the TOC seeks a fine for misuse, where a sound defence would be based on 'false imprisonment'* [as in detaining them against their wishes] and prevention of attending say: a court hearing, an important hospital appointment, an important academic examination, etc..

To be fair I have no knowledge that any misuse of passcoms has resulted in a court appearance but I am very sure that the above defences, sound or otherwise, you state above are no defence in law. In fact I would counter that one would be proving their guilt by admitting to deliberately using the passcom when there was no real emergency.

I must reiterate that the passcom is only for emergency use, e.g a person trapped in the door when the train is moving, the train is on fire, &c., &c.. Not you are going to be late for the dentists. The acceptance of deliberate misuse of the passcom in non emergency situations has the potential to weaken its effect in a true emergency therefore I can not and will not accept its use for a passenger being overcarried.

Train operators do take door faults seriously and we are constantly reminded as traincrew that we must timeously report the fault and label any such door found, the use of public address is encouraged to inform the travelling public to give themselves extra time to alight due to any door fault, and we would be justified in allowing extra dwell time (a 1/4 minute would probably suffice) to ensure this happens. Ensuring that arrival announcements are made prior to stations helps those passengers who are not so familiar with the line get ready to alight before their stop. Traincrew are authorised to move any item that in their opinion is causing an obstruction to the doors or in fact any other passageway on the train - this helps the free movement of passengers and speeds up boarding & alighting considerably. Not only that in creates a much more pleasant travelling environment for all.

Passengers must also take responsibility for their own actions and give themselves plenty of time to alight. It always amazes me so that many do not and also that so many pay no attention to the door opening instructions nor to the hustle alarms.

As I posted earlier, actually closing doors on a person who is trying to get off could also be considered as assault.

The above really does not warrant a response but do you have any examples of successful prosecutions for "assault by train door"?
 

transmanche

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As DOO is now the default position the guards wont be there to do anything in future anyway!
On the T&W Metro (which is DOO and has a 'no cycles' policy) I've witnessed a number of occasions where the driver has warned a passenger via the PA not to board the train with a bike. (Although obviously this would be harder with 8- or 12-car trains.)
 

AM9

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To be fair I have no knowledge that any misuse of passcoms has resulted in a court appearance but I am very sure that the above defences, sound or otherwise, you state above are no defence in law. In fact I would counter that one would be proving their guilt by admitting to deliberately using the passcom when there was no real emergency.

I must reiterate that the passcom is only for emergency use, e.g a person trapped in the door when the train is moving, the train is on fire, &c., &c.. Not you are going to be late for the dentists. The acceptance of deliberate misuse of the passcom in non emergency situations has the potential to weaken its effect in a true emergency therefore I can not and will not accept its use for a passenger being overcarried.

Train operators do take door faults seriously and we are constantly reminded as traincrew that we must timeously report the fault and label any such door found, the use of public address is encouraged to inform the travelling public to give themselves extra time to alight due to any door fault, and we would be justified in allowing extra dwell time (a 1/4 minute would probably suffice) to ensure this happens. Ensuring that arrival announcements are made prior to stations helps those passengers who are not so familiar with the line get ready to alight before their stop. Traincrew are authorised to move any item that in their opinion is causing an obstruction to the doors or in fact any other passageway on the train - this helps the free movement of passengers and speeds up boarding & alighting considerably. Not only that in creates a much more pleasant travelling environment for all.

Passengers must also take responsibility for their own actions and give themselves plenty of time to alight. It always amazes me so that many do not and also that so many pay no attention to the door opening instructions nor to the hustle alarms.



The above really does not warrant a response but do you have any examples of successful prosecutions for "assault by train door"?

I'll assume that you haven't read fully or maybe just misunderstood the comments in my post #30 and Neil Williams in post #31. Both posts explain that there are circumstances that, trivial as it may seem to a guard/driver, are serious issues for the passenger who through no fault of their own may be forced to travel beyond their destination. If you think that the examples that I have given (a court hearing, an important hospital appointment, an important academic examination, etc..) would be frivolous reasons to pull the lever then so be it. I would imagine that any TOC who had the stupidity to take a legitimate passenger to law for that would not only be lambasted by the local media, but a court would ask questions as to what the emegency alarm is for then. As somebody has already posted here, if the TOCs can't (won't) give some formal guidance on what is an emegency and what isn't, then they can hardly complain if the public, who are not interested in details of rail operations, decide what an emergency is themselves. If a passenger didn't pull the lever because 'a TOC member of staff' said "you can't use it for that", and there were serious consequences, I can't see the TOC automatically supporting that employee in every circumstance.
The bottom line is that the emergency alarm is there to be used when the passenger feels it is necessary. As far as he/she is concerned, all it does is stop the train. The operational consequences would be relevant in the case of abuse of this safety feature, but as you say, you haven't heard of any TOC taking a passenger to court, and nor have I. I doubt that in the circumstance being discussed, a TOC would take the risk of a court exposing their lack of foresight.
You should note that I am not lambasting the guard/driver/dispatcher here who are just trying to keep the trains running to time. They do have unreasoanble passenger behaviour to deal with, and probably get no sympathy from their employer when it happens. Placed in that situation, if I couldn't cope with it, I would consider my employment options. I wouldn't take it out on all passengers by assuming that the TOC's financial interests in avoiding penalties for late running took priority over all passengers needs.

As far as what you erroneously call 'assault by door', (or even 'TOC employee assaults passenger by closing doors on him/her') cases, please just read what I said again: "could also be considered as assault". Where do you get the idea from that I said there has been any actual case brought to court?
 

XC90

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30 seconds is long enough. If its busy, extend it to 41 seconds.
 

PermitToTravel

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On the T&W Metro (which is DOO and has a 'no cycles' policy) I've witnessed a number of occasions where the driver has warned a passenger via the PA not to board the train with a bike. (Although obviously this would be harder with 8- or 12-car trains.)

Fairly common, too, on the parts of the London Underground on which the carriage of bicycles is prohibited. Heard it countless times on (8-car) Victoria line trains.
 

AM9

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Fairly common, too, on the parts of the London Underground on which the carriage of bicycles is prohibited. Heard it countless times on (8-car) Victoria line trains.

Easier to hear on a platform in a tube.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
30 seconds is long enough. If its busy, extend it to 41 seconds.

Or if there are any reasons why passengers can't (as opposed to can't be bothered) to get off safely in that time.
 

Starmill

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To be fair I have no knowledge that any misuse of passcoms has resulted in a court appearance but I am very sure that the above defences, sound or otherwise, you state above are no defence in law. In fact I would counter that one would be proving their guilt by admitting to deliberately using the passcom when there was no real emergency.

I must reiterate that the passcom is only for emergency use, e.g a person trapped in the door when the train is moving, the train is on fire, &c., &c.. Not you are going to be late for the dentists. The acceptance of deliberate misuse of the passcom in non emergency situations has the potential to weaken its effect in a true emergency therefore I can not and will not accept its use for a passenger being overcarried.

If you had a passenger overcarried who did not use the passcom, and it seemed to be the case that they had not been able to alight through no fault of their own, and it was the last train of the night, would your TOC get them a taxi from the next station back to the one they wanted? I suspect that the answer is no.
 

XC90

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If you had a passenger overcarried who did not use the passcom, and it seemed to be the case that they had not been able to alight through no fault of their own, and it was the last train of the night, would your TOC get them a taxi from the next station back to the one they wanted? I suspect that the answer is no.

Mmmmm, you don't live on a scotrail route do you?
 
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fluff

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If you have the good fortune to be travelling on my train and there is a genuine reason as to why you cannot get off in time, I would be perfectly happy for you to pull the passcom. I'll come and investigate, tell you not to worry about it, apologise if the exit has been blocked by other inconsiderate passengers, reset the equipment, and we'll be on our way again with minimal delay. I'll simply report any delay as overrunning on station dwell time due to passengers alighting. It happens. Often multiple times in a journey but it's not usually the fault of the passengers alighting.

If you have pulled it because you were asleep or drunk or whatever, whilst I may not be quite as happy about it, I'm not going to be angry or give you a hard time or delay everyone else unnecessarily by involving the BTP.
 

AM9

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If you have the good fortune to be travelling on my train and there is a genuine reason as to why you cannot get off in time, I would be perfectly happy for you to pull the passcom. I'll come and investigate, tell you not to worry about it, apologise if the exit has been blocked by other inconsiderate passengers, reset the equipment, and we'll be on our way again with minimal delay. I'll simply report any delay as overrunning on station dwell time due to passengers alighting. It happens. Often multiple times in a journey but it's not usually the fault of the passengers alighting.

If you have pulled it because you were asleep or drunk or whatever, whilst I may not be quite as happy about it, I'm not going to be angry or give you a hard time or delay everyone else unnecessarily by involving the BTP.

Wow, a driver/guard on here who isn't blaming passengers for being asleep, drunk etc. but accepting that most passengers are loathe to pull the alarm and would only do so if it was really important to them. Thank you.
 

Bletchleyite

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Wow, a driver/guard on here who isn't blaming passengers for being asleep, drunk etc. but accepting that most passengers are loathe to pull the alarm and would only do so if it was really important to them. Thank you.

FWIW I've pulled it twice, once on LUL and once on a VT, both times on behalf of others, and both times I feel it was justified and no member of staff said otherwise.
 

sarahj

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If its time to go or past time to go and no-one has got off for 5 secs or so, then its blow the whistle and close the doors. Sometimes your heart goes into your mouth when just as you push the door close button someone then tries to get off. over the last 8 years I've had about two over carried. My answer, we were they long enough, you had time.
You do get the odd one or two who wait until the train stops, then decide to get up, collect their belongings, and then head for the door. Fine on an inter city train, not great on a many stops, 2 mins between stations line.

However for those boarding, I try and make sure all those waiting get on. The only ones I've behind are those that after I blow the whistle make no attempt at getting on, but are walking up the platform. Another whistle, nope, still they wander.. Close doors and off we go.

If you have ever seen the film, 'dirty rotten scoundrels' their is a scene where Caine and Martin are about to get off a train. Every time I watch it these days all I can think is 'too slow, the train would be away by now'.

Real trains are not the railway children. Time for a chat with my cribbens, Jenny to go 'oooo', some wizzard words and a then a whistle. If it was like that the stoppers along the coast would be 5 mins late by Worthing.
 

bramling

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If its time to go or past time to go and no-one has got off for 5 secs or so, then its blow the whistle and close the doors. Sometimes your heart goes into your mouth when just as you push the door close button someone then tries to get off. over the last 8 years I've had about two over carried. My answer, we were they long enough, you had time.
You do get the odd one or two who wait until the train stops, then decide to get up, collect their belongings, and then head for the door. Fine on an inter city train, not great on a many stops, 2 mins between stations line.

However for those boarding, I try and make sure all those waiting get on. The only ones I've behind are those that after I blow the whistle make no attempt at getting on, but are walking up the platform. Another whistle, nope, still they wander.. Close doors and off we go.

If you have ever seen the film, 'dirty rotten scoundrels' their is a scene where Caine and Martin are about to get off a train. Every time I watch it these days all I can think is 'too slow, the train would be away by now'.

Real trains are not the railway children. Time for a chat with my cribbens, Jenny to go 'oooo', some wizzard words and a then a whistle. If it was like that the stoppers along the coast would be 5 mins late by Worthing.

One thing I find irritating .. sit in a platform for a minute or two waiting booked time, signal or whatever.

The moment the door close button is pressed, someone will appear attempting to alight. This happens *so* often, I don't understand why.

I will always ensure there's time for everyone to *alight*, and normally seek to ensure there's time for everyone *already on the platform* to board. However patience runs thin if the train is obviously full and more people try and force their way on, or large numbers of people are trying to get on through a few doors whilst other doors elsewhere on the train are not being utilised. In the above situations, especially if there's another train close behind, then I will make a robust announcement and start the sequence.

The big picture is important. You can't always wait for everyone to board at a given station, as what will happen is you start to run late. Subsequent stations then incur longer dwell times, causing the lost time to start to add up very quickly, now starting to mess up the whole service. Having to re-open due to not getting interlock can cost 15-20 seconds each & every time. So if I know there's a gap in front and another train close behind, I won't always wait for everyone to board at a given location. There's no requirement to ensure the doors are clear when pressing the close button (PAs and door chimes are deemed to take care of that), however there are important safety procedures associated with what happens if someone gets caught and checking the train is safe before moving off.
 
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Starmill

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Mmmmm, you don't live on a scotrail route do you?

No. And I await thoughts on what might happen to said passenger with interest.

Imagine you're on the last train to Bridge of Allan? I would expect to be dumped by myself at Dunblane at 1am and just hope there's a taxi will pick you up.
 
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reb0118

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Imagine you'[ve been overcarried] on the last train to Bridge of Allan [BIA]? I would expect to be dumped by myself at Dunblane

You are never alone in Dunblane! <D

Anyway it is a very pleasant ramble back down the backroad to the Bridge of Allan even at 01:00, you can follow the river but please watch out for wolves or the ghosts of the redcoats from 1715.



In reality your circumstances would be taken into consideration and the following may happen:-

1) It was deemed to be your fault, tough*. (TBF I feel that this would be unlikely to happen - but if so our helpline may arrange a taxi at your expense or call a friend to pick you up).

2) It was deemed to be our fault so you will receive transport back to BIA (either a taxi or control will authorise your travelling on the ECS that would be returning to Stirling anyway). You may be eligible for Delay Repay too?

3) No obvious fault: we would err on the side of caution and get you back to BIA. See 2) above.

* Regardless of fault "vurnerable" passengers would not be left stranded
 

redbutton

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I was on a 387 the other day where I heard a new twist on an old favourite automated announcement:

(Paraphrased)

"Please ensure you take all your belongings with you and you are ready to alight."

As for the OP's situation, if I were in that position (as a passenger) I would have recognised the hazard posed by the bicycle and luggage, and either asked the owner to move them, done it myself, or made my way to the next set of doors. This process starts as we are departing the previous station.

Of course I shouldn't have to go out of my way to avoid inconvenience, but sometimes the only person who can help you is you.
 

Haywain

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That's just a rant about various things that are nothing to do with this post.
With the current aggressive attitude of some TOCs about claiming of being overcarried is an excuse for a passenger underpaying fares. They also seem to want to, if not penalise, at least chastise anybody who just touches closing doors when all they are trying to do is maximise their profits by avoiding delay penalties.

Promptly followed by a rant about things that have nothing to do with the original post. Well done!
 

kieron

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One time I remember, I was on a fairly crowded train on the approach to my stop. There was a woman in the closest vestibule to me standing right in front of the door buttons. Then the train came to a stop.

"Could you press that button, please?"

Apparently not.

And away we go!

Sometimes, doors which open at every stop don't seem like such a bad idea.
 

Starmill

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As for the OP's situation, if I were in that position (as a passenger) I would have recognised the hazard posed by the bicycle and luggage, and either asked the owner to move them, done it myself, or made my way to the next set of doors. This process starts as we are departing the previous station.

Of course I shouldn't have to go out of my way to avoid inconvenience, but sometimes the only person who can help you is you.

In many cases this clearly does apply. Unfortunately, in order for me to have done something about it, I would have had to do lost of shouting down the saloon giving instructions to people who almost certainly wouldn't listen to me, let alone do as I requested. For about the fifth time I'll have to point out that I was in the queue to leave the train before we had stopped, and couldn't see the obstructions that the people in front of me weren't interested in doing anything about.

However, I was fairly sure that if the guard had chosen to dispatch the train from the platform, rather than the inside of the cab, he would have been able to see sufficiently into the area around the rear set of doors to spot this problem.


Perhaps a further but separate note, a friend was recently over-carried on a double decker bus, because although they'd pressed the bell in time, had not stood up from the top deck before the bus stopped (in order to avoid falling down the stairs I think more than in order to comply with company policy of staying seated until the bus has stopped, but whatever). The driver upon being alerted then passed several stops that the bus wasn't booked to serve, despite it clearly being a safe place to drop someone off, and dumped them a 15 minute walk away at the next stop that this bus had been booked to serve. When challenged they admitted that they had over-carried the passenger, and did know that they had wanted the stop they hadn't waited for them at, but that that was 'not their problem'.

Public transport companies are there for us, their passengers. But there is no effective regulator to make them treat us fairly by not doing things like that. If you want travel under sensible terms the only solution is to drive. Welcome to modern Britain.
 
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cjmillsnun

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I have a beef with this if its true. The guard was in a position to see the stream of passengers from the OP's door. Therefore they were aware that station duties were not complete in that passengers were still alighting in a steady stream (which they would've been if there was a queue for that door inside the car)

It used to be the case (and still is with some operators) that the guard left the train at each station to observe passengers boarding and alighting, then closed the doors when safe before returning to their local door, closing it and giving two to the driver. That obviously isn't practicable with DOO, hence monitors and mirrors are provided for the driver.
 
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455driver

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For about the fifth time I'll have to point out that I was in the queue to leave the train before we had stopped, and couldn't see the obstructions that the people in front of me weren't interested in doing anything about.

How did the people in front of you manage to get off then?
 

infobleep

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What about the opposite, which happened to me in 2001. One time I was at Swindon station awaiting a train to Reading. It was the last train I could get to connect back to Guildford. I was in the platform waiting room chatting to someone.

They switched the train platforms but didn't announce it. I didn't hear the train come in until it was in. The doors had closed by the time I got their and the train manager refused to open them.

I eventually rang National Rail Enquiries but they couldn't do anything so I spent the night at Swindon station.

I complained and got a first class rail voucher to use anywhere on the First Great Western network but I never did use it.

If the platform was switched, I'd have expected an announcement.
 

455driver

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How many other passengers missed the train?
If none then I would hazard a guess that the announcement was made but you didn't hear/listen to it!
 

Wolfie

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One time I remember, I was on a fairly crowded train on the approach to my stop. There was a woman in the closest vestibule to me standing right in front of the door buttons. Then the train came to a stop.

"Could you press that button, please?"

Apparently not.

And away we go!

Sometimes, doors which open at every stop don't seem like such a bad idea.

That's a particular bugbear of mine on London Overground. Perhaps because people are used to the tube they just stand there waiting for the doors to open. It's a big problem when they aren't getting off but block the door controls....
 

infobleep

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Saturday I got on the Waterloo and City line to Bank. Train pulled in and myself and two friends immediately got on. As I was getting on the door bleeps went to close the doors.

Seems very fast to me but perhaps the driver had judged that everyone would be on by the time the doors closed.
 
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