I recently tried to alight from a suburban-layout EMU and was nearly caught in the doors or overcarried. I was sat at the rear of the train beyond the rear set of doors so could only alight from those, and a bicycle had been incorrectly loaded onto the train at the major station that was the train's origin such that it was partly blocking the door along with some suitcases. I had to queue to get off the train after the doors had been open for over 60 seconds the person in front of me stepped onto the platform as the door alarm sounded. I quickly shoved my way off the train and was only a couple of seconds from being trapped in the doors. I noticed the guard staring at me leaning out of the window of the rear cab door, which was closed. Is it reasonable to expect people to alight from the train as quickly as they can so as not to delay it? Only 30 seconds were allowed for stopping at this station but almost 3 times that was necessary due to the train being very busy, it being a popular stop and the obstructions. I broke the rule about not alighting from the train when the doors are closing and was close to getting trapped in the doors. But I judged that less risky than being dumped a the next unstaffed station and waiting an hour for a train back.
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How long should you have to alight from a train?
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scott118
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is this a DOO worked service?
ANorthernGuard
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I am presuming it's a 323. I am forever telling passengers to put bikes in the middle coach near the toilets otherwise the block exits and makes it unsafe. When the last person alights the train I count to 10 before closing the doors. That seems to work out just about right.
What is the correct loading for a bicycle ?
Were the suitcases also incorrectly loaded ?
How many people were in the queue ?
Did you seek to use an alternative set of doors ? Was there a single set of doors on the coach ?
Do you believe that 60 seconds is inadequate ?
Stepping into the doors whilst they were closing was your choice and whilst I do understand it. If you had become trapped then you would have been partially to blame.
I would say not. There service is provided for the passenger and I would expect them to act in a reasonable way not to DELIBERATLY delay it but otherwise it takes as long as it will for passengers to alight and board.
I'm confused. Did you make multiple trips ? I'm confused over "3 times" Were the doors released and reopened ?
Can you show where there is only 30seconds dwell time in the booked schedule ?
Your post is lacking specifics so it's hard to determine if anything was amiss and could be rectified. In general I open the doors and when its clear I press the button. I've seen a coachload of school kids decamp in less than 30 seconds.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I was going to post almost exactly that. If the door hustle alarms started to sound while someone was alighting, it sounds like that was perhaps not what was done here, to the detriment of the OP. Or maybe if the platform was crowded the guard couldn't see properly.
Urban Gateline
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I quite agree, but sometimes the last person is when you think the last person has already alighted, especially on trains like Pendolinos it is impossible to see people still fiddling around just about to get off, this happens a lot at weekends with Families who are slow to get up when the Train arrives at their station and then get together all their luggage and by the time they get to the door the Guard or Dispatcher may already have prompted the closing of the doors!
How would the person closing the doors know ? From a DOO perspective I only see the outside of the train.
I tend to use experience to judge that people are fully alighted.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
With train-mounted cameras has it ever been considered to have an additional monitor with a view of inside the vestibules? Would also be useful for a guard, but more so for DOO or for longer trains.
The bicicle space was nowhere near where the bike had been loaded, but nobody had bothered to tell him to move it. The luggage was left in front of the doors. I was clear on all of your other questions (not DOO, no alternative doors) except maybe where I referred to 'three times longer' I meant the doors needed to be open for nearly a minute and a half. I don't know how many people were in front of me, lots of them were queuing from the other side of the doorway, they of course would have had a choice of doors.
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Personally I think its a non issue and a one off. Even on the Ride London days I see hoards of bikes decamp in less than a minute. If it was a regular occurrence then it is worth reporting to the TOC.
If the Guard has given over a minute then they have been more than reasonable.
As for cameras inside the vestibule. Cost would be the obvious factor but necessity would probably be the big decider. It's a huge cost for a very much non issue. More can be achieved by better dispatch procedure.
We have 12 car trains and that's 24 sets of doors to monitor.
I hate to say it but passenger attitudes plays a big part of the issue. Chuck in traction, DOO, infrastructure and whatever someone will find as an excuse. As a couple others have posted. Give a pregnant pause before hitting the button and you are generally ok.
If the Guard has given over a minute then they have been more than reasonable.
As for cameras inside the vestibule. Cost would be the obvious factor but necessity would probably be the big decider. It's a huge cost for a very much non issue. More can be achieved by better dispatch procedure.
We have 12 car trains and that's 24 sets of doors to monitor.
I hate to say it but passenger attitudes plays a big part of the issue. Chuck in traction, DOO, infrastructure and whatever someone will find as an excuse. As a couple others have posted. Give a pregnant pause before hitting the button and you are generally ok.
My advice is that if you come across any bikes/luggage blocking your exit doors is to politely but firmly push them onto the platform as you exit. If you are a considerate soul you may move them out of the way of your fellow passengers and inform the friendly station staff that there is now some unattended luggage on their platform.
No guard worth his salt should allow exits/entrances to become blocked esp. when there is free luggage/cycle space further down the train.
Grrrrr!
No guard worth his salt should allow exits/entrances to become blocked esp. when there is free luggage/cycle space further down the train.
Grrrrr!
fairysdad
Member
I too think it's a non-issue, but I don't think it's a one-off occurence. Admittedly, my experience in this relates to London Underground rather than National Rail, but I've known loads of times when the doors have started to close (ie, the hustle alarm) before people have got off, even to the detriment of people wanting to board (who now have an empty train to get onto!).
The OP didn't mention that the cyclist was decamping, his bike was left blocking the exit so those needing to alight couldn't do so in the normal time allowed in the dwell.
Not if there were still passengers alighting. Also, if he was experienced, he should realise that passengers were alighting much slower than normal and there was probably a reason for that.
That's just a rant about various things that are nothing to do with this post.
With the current aggressive attitude of some TOCs about claiming of being overcarried is an excuse for a passenger underpaying fares. They also seem to want to, if not penalise, at least chastise anybody who just touches closing doors when all they are trying to do is maximise their profits by avoiding delay penalties.
As DOO is now the default position the guards wont be there to do anything in future anyway!
In what way is it a rant ?
starmill was asking about alighting times and what is reasonable. Considering I've seen bikes, kids, grannies, disabled passengers and all manner of people alight a unit in a remarkably quick manner I would say that it is exactly what is pertinent to the discussion.
Bikes are put in place and carried on by the passenger. The FACT that it has caused an issue in this case makes it very germane to the op. It is the passenger in this case that has caused other passengers to queue whilst trying to alight.
The Guard DID make a reasonable adjustment and gave extra time to alight. Considering they cannot see inside the train they make a reasonable guess. The Guard gave additional time to alight and that was pointed out in the OP. How long do you recommended the Guard wait. 2 minutes ? 3 minutes ? 4.. ?
We can keep the rest of it in context too. starmill hasn't identified the traction type and I can flat out tell you that it will make a difference. On the units I drive each coach has 2 sets of doors. I would say that it is totally reasonable for passengers to walk through the coach to the next set of doors if a bike was blocking a set of doors. That still wouldn't take a minute.
DOO is an issue too because I can only see outside the train. I am not expected to walk back and check each set of doors to ensure passengers are not disembarking. Are you suggesting otherwise ? How long should I leave it ? As highlighted by me and others if the doors are clear you hold tight for a second or two before closing the doors. The Guard does the same.
There are many issues involved with the PTI (platform train interface) and a lot of specific passenger issues with boarding and alighting. But what would I know. I only do it most days of the week.
I can also highlight specific passenger attitudes if you would like but maybe that would be a rant too.
If we take it from a TOC perspective I can tell you with absolute certainty that alighting and boarding times are regularly checked as well as large scale timing exercises carried out to test passenger loading. Seriously if a class of 30 school kids can get off a train within 30 seconds then how many people and how much of an issue was the bike in starmill's experience ? Hence me saying it sounds like a one off. Still worth reporting to the TOC if it happened regularly.
FYI the 2 main reasons (in my experience) for passengers over carrying is because they were asleep or drunk.
The PTI is a major concern for the TOC so it is important that they get it right. The high level of incidents at the PTI must be reduced but hey its about profits first as always
What difference does it make? The guard didn't leave the cab for the part of the train's journey I was onboard for.
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Although its not the closest to the exit, it is by far the closest to the entrance at the origin station and major boarding point where its up against the buffers.
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I kinda wondered how good a view of the outside of the train the guard had from the inside of the cab, but he must have thought it sufficient.
Aren't all 1/3 2/3 door-spaced suburban layout EMUs pretty much the same?
In all honesty I have no idea what a "suburban layout EMU" is. However I can tell you that each of the 3 different units I drive they each have their own uniqueness.
Indeed. If, as a passenger, you leave a gap of more than a few seconds between you and the next person then you will get the doors closing on you.
I guess the issue here is that the first passenger's exit did not trigger the doors to reopen, as they would in a lift.
Well "I hate to say it but passenger attitudes plays a big part of the issue. Chuck in traction, DOO, infrastructure and whatever someone will find as an excuse." is all about what the driver/guard sees as justification for closing doors when they do. It has nothing to do with the original posting in this thread which was about inconsiderate passenger(s) obstructing an exit door thereby causing passengers to exit the train slower than normal. The OP has clearly said that it was the end door (meaning that with the queue to get off and the original obstruction blocking passage past those doors to the next), there was no other way off the train. That "passenger attitudes", "traction", "DOO", "infrastructure" and "whatever" may irritatate an intolerant driver is totally irrelevant. Trying to excuse the action of closing the doors on passengers exiting a train with irrelevant irritations like that is pure ranting, unless you are saying that the driver wasn't mentally fit for the job!
So what! That's another irrelevance. The fact as reported is that there was a serious obstruction in that coach and, slow as it was, that was the fastest that the passengers could get off safely.
This statement makes your us and them attitude more obvius, i.e. passengers are just passengers, so if one inconsiderate one does something daft/dangerous/etc. then it's the fault of all passengers and they should suffer. A 'not my fault' situation.
The guard should give enough time for all passengers needing to alight time to do so. If it seems that one door is particularly slow, then if he/she can't/won't walk along the train to find out why, just wait until the flow of passengers finishes. Had they gone to investigate, the obstruction would have been found and dealt with. Staff have resonsibility for train safety, not the passengers as we are so frequuently reminded on these fora. All the other comments about holding doors open for passengers to join the train are irrelevant here, these were passengers trying to get off, and ultimately, deliberately closing doors on passengers trying to get off could be construed as assault.
The OP opened his post by saying:
"I recently tried to alight from a suburban-layout EMU and was nearly caught in the doors or overcarried. I was sat at the rear of the train beyond the rear set of doors so could only alight from those,..."
To me that means that it was a 1/3, 2/3 doors design which is typically used on suburban routes almost everywhere, think class 150, 321 etc.. For him to be sitting beyond the rear set of doors in a 'regional/rural' type of layout (class 156 etc.) he would be sitting in the rear cab with the guard, (maybe he could have told the guard to get up and sort the door obstruction then he wouldn't have needed to keep the doors open longer than the TOC's precious 30 seconds).
If passengers are alighting say one every five seconds then 'a second or two' isn't enough. Neither I nor any other passenger makes the rules for DOO, (I doubt that many even know them), all they expect is that having paid the fare, they can alight safely at the station they need to as per the timetabled stops and their ticket's validity.
I would assume that those employed to close the doors have the necessary experience to do it correctly and although they are just as likely to make mistakes like any human being, they both admit their errors and acknowledge the possible consequences of them.
Not relevant to a specific event so yes it is.
Just because young agile children can quickly clamber over obstructions, should those that can't get the doors closed on them? It's the one offs that create serious safety problems, when normal operation is assumed.
So you would assume that is why they were slow?
The PTI is a major concern for the TOC so it is important that they get it right. The high level of incidents at the PTI must be reduced but hey its about profits first as always
I agree absolutely with your sentiment here. If profit is a motive then all the exhortations about their priorities must be taken with some cynicism as to the real resons:
safety = legal H & S consequences
people = industrial relations and tribunal consequences
service = keep out of the media's eyes
profit = bow to mammon
That all depends on the curvature of the platform
No emoticon?
Why? Perfectly sensible questions. Through experience both as a passenger and from working on the railway I often see people get up late or not ask people to move their stuff so they can get off - then blame the railway for not holding the doors open long enough.
That is a very risky plan of action. You may be lucky and get away with it - you probably would with my TOC, bad publicity and all that. However, I have seen perfectly reasonable people huckled by the BTP for daring to do this on one of the special TOCs that operate from my station.
Define an emergency? NB it does not apply to someone missing their stop.
Define an emergency? NB it does not apply to someone missing their stop.
It may not be an emergency to the TOC but it could be an emergency to an innocent passenger for a number of reasons.
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That depends on the consequences of them not being able to get off.
This may sound reasonable to a lay person - but we need specifics to back it up. NB for the avoidance of doubt do not confuse an inconvenience, severe or otherwise, with an emergency.
Also note I am sympathetic to the plight of over carried passengers but surely it is better to ensure that there is free access/egress throughout the train than relying on the misuse of emergency alarms (passcoms) to regulate passenger flow.
Passengers & staff can work towards this goal it is not rocket science but merely good common sense - if you as a passenger see an obstruction, if possible, ask the person causing it to move it to a more suitable location, move it yourself if safe to do you, or report it to the on board staff for suitable action.
How many posts have there been on this forum recently about 'don't touch anybody's possesions because they might':
1) accuse you of attempted theft/damage
2) lump you!
Whilst I don't agree that either of those are likely to happen to a significant degree, there is the issue that passengers shouldn't have to challenge others who clearly have little regard for others comfort or safety. If there is a guard then as flamingo has hinted he likes the challenge and 'he wears the uniform', but what about DOO?
It may not be sensible law in action, but I can imagine a court case where the TOC seeks a fine for misuse, where a sound defence would be based on 'false imprisonment'* and prevention of attending say: a court hearing, an important hospital appointment, an important academic examination, etc..
As I posted earlier, actually closing doors on a person who is trying to get off could also be considered as assault.
* as in detaining them against their wishes
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