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How important is OOC to HS2?

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irish_rail

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But has the awkward change via London, which a good many people simply won't do, and which is inaccessible from a wheelchair user point of view too.

I can't see much of a case against this at all - having a "London Hbf" as an interchange (even if not in London itself so not as useful for going to London) is a massive potential benefit. If all it costs is 5 minutes on GWR and legacy WCML services plus the cost of a 4 platform station at Willesden (and some tidying up of the existing station which is an abject tip), that seems a price worth paying. If it's that much of an issue on "fast" GWR services, lop Reading out of those instead, leaving that in the "semifasts" only.
No thanks! Reading is a genuinely useful interchange for people travelling from the south west, forcing them to go to OOC instead wouldn't go down at all well. OOC on the other hand really needs to be for semi fasts , and leave anything bound for the far south west alone, certainly don't want to lose the Reading stop!
 
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Bletchleyite

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No thanks! Reading is a genuinely useful interchange for people travelling from the south west, forcing them to go to OOC instead wouldn't go down at all well. OOC on the other hand really needs to be for semi fasts , and leave anything bound for the far south west alone, certainly don't want to lose the Reading stop!

These things change, of course. On the WCML Watford Junction has lost importance in favour of MKC.

I think you probably want to serve both, though. The GWR of today is mostly a semifast commuter style service anyway, with the exception of the Penzance services.
 

Bald Rick

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These things change, of course. On the WCML Watford Junction has lost importance in favour of MKC.

I think you probably want to serve both, though. The GWR of today is mostly a semifast commuter style service anyway, with the exception of the Penzance services.

You have to serve Reading - the revenue you’d lose by not doing so with long distance services is astronomical. Wheareas the revenue loss from Watford was minimal.
 

irish_rail

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These things change, of course. On the WCML Watford Junction has lost importance in favour of MKC.

I think you probably want to serve both, though. The GWR of today is mostly a semifast commuter style service anyway, with the exception of the Penzance services.
The key bit is your last point "except the Penzance services". Therefore these should be exempt from the OOC stop.
 

Bletchleyite

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The key bit is your last point "except the Penzance services". Therefore these should be exempt from the OOC stop.

Given the small impact of adding 5 minutes to a journey time of 4h15 (and a lot of passengers doing very long journeys), and the potential confusion of stopping all but that 1tph, I would stop them too.
 

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Given the small impact of adding 5 minutes to a journey time of 4h15 (and a lot of passengers doing very long journeys), and the potential confusion of stopping all but that 1tph, I would stop them too.
I think we established in some previous discussion that capacity pressure is such that either all of them have to stop or none. This would be separate for the Mains and Reliefs though. Maybe in time Heathrow Express will disappear, and if so that might create more flexibility on the Mains.
 

irish_rail

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I think we established in some previous discussion that capacity pressure is such that either all of them have to stop or none. This would be separate for the Mains and Reliefs though. Maybe in time Heathrow Express will disappear, and if so that might create more flexibility on the Mains.
OK I'm no expert timetable planner, far from it, but surely if you let the xx to Penzance depart at xx00 from Paddington then have everything else, as now, in 2 or 3 minute intervals leaving after it. I'm sure it is more complex in the up direction, but I'm sure it isn't impossible.

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Given the small impact of adding 5 minutes to a journey time of 4h15 (and a lot of passengers doing very long journeys), and the potential confusion of stopping all but that 1tph, I would stop them too.
So you are happy to extend journey times to the south west? Even a 5 minute journey extension is an extension. Would passengers to the north west or north east tolerate such an extension? Oh no, of course not. But they are getting vastly speeded up services, whilst poor old Cornwall still has the same journey times to London it had in HST days. No wonder levelling up is needed, I'm just not convinced the Government are looking at levelling up the right areas of the country!
 

Bletchleyite

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So you are happy to extend journey times to the south west? Even a 5 minute journey extension is an extension. Would passengers to the north west or north east tolerate such an extension? Oh no, of course not. But they are getting vastly speeded up services, whilst poor old Cornwall still has the same journey times to London it had in HST days. No wonder levelling up is needed, I'm just not convinced the Government are looking at levelling up the right areas of the country!

Putting my old North West hat on, I would be more than happy for current Avanti services to be 5 minutes slower for the massive connectivity benefit of an OOC/Willesden stop, yes. Connectivity trumps simple journey time.

5 minutes on a 4+ hour journey is really nothing.
 

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Note: I was closely involved in much of the design of HS2, but I speak only for myself, not my former employer.

Without OOC station, there is no HS2.
The numbers of passengers envisaged on HS2 simply cannot be handled by a single London terminal station. By connecting into Crossrail and the GWML at OOC the wider connectivity creates a natural split of passengers between OOC and Euston. Adding further connectivity such as North London Line / West London Line / Central Line to the OOC complex further enhances its utility. Comparison with "What if HS2 ran direct with no intermediate stop" is an illusion, as that could never happen. I did rather offend some members of the GW planning team when we were discussing the need for all GW trains (main and slows) to call at OOC, since I was (and remain) convinced that OOC will grow to far overshadow Paddington in importance for the GWML. I described Paddington as the "necessary turnback sidings for OOC". There was some severe harumphing then, but by the following meeting they were fully on board with the idea.

It now appears that reconstructing Euston is going to take longer than first envisaged, so HS2 will open first to OOC, and only subsequently to Euston. That rather underlines the vital importance of OOC to the whole project.
 

MarkyT

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Putting my old North West hat on, I would be more than happy for current Avanti services to be 5 minutes slower for the massive connectivity benefit of an OOC/Willesden stop, yes. Connectivity trumps simple journey time.

5 minutes on a 4+ hour journey is really nothing.
ISTR long distance journey times into Paddington were often 'padded' by a similar amount on the last leg from Reading to keep on time arrival stats at the terminal within acceptable limits.
 

edwin_m

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OK I'm no expert timetable planner, far from it, but surely if you let the xx to Penzance depart at xx00 from Paddington then have everything else, as now, in 2 or 3 minute intervals leaving after it. I'm sure it is more complex in the up direction, but I'm sure it isn't impossible.
That should work in principle if they all stop, or if they all don't, though I don't know what the current or future headway actually is. But if one stops and the next one is scheduled not to, then the non-stop is just going to see adverse signals and probably get brought nearly to a stand. The same will probably happen to at least one train after that, depending how much slack there is between the timetabled interval and the technical headway the signalling can achieve.
 

Nottingham59

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I was closely involved in much of the design of HS2, but I speak only for myself, not my former employer.
Pleased to hear that.
I was (and remain) convinced that OOC will grow to far overshadow Paddington in importance for the GWML. I described Paddington as the "necessary turnback sidings for OOC".
I tend to agree, depending how slick the transfer will be from GWML to Elizabeth Line, and whether commuters heading into the centre get a time advantage by doing so. And if the Overground lines are readily accessible and not over-whelmed.

But if this applies to GWML, then why does that logic not apply to Euston HS? Does Euston become the turnback sidings for OOC too? Pretty expensive if that's the case.
 

Bletchleyite

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Pleased to hear that.

I tend to agree, depending how slick the transfer will be from GWML to Elizabeth Line, and whether commuters heading into the centre get a time advantage by doing so. And if the Overground lines are readily accessible and not over-whelmed.

But if this applies to GWML, then why does that logic not apply to Euston HS? Does Euston become the turnback sidings for OOC too? Pretty expensive if that's the case.

Paddington is in the sticks, Euston is more usefully located for continuing on foot/by bicycle. But I don't doubt OOC will be well used.
 

CW2

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Pleased to hear that.

I tend to agree, depending how slick the transfer will be from GWML to Elizabeth Line, and whether commuters heading into the centre get a time advantage by doing so. And if the Overground lines are readily accessible and not over-whelmed.

But if this applies to GWML, then why does that logic not apply to Euston HS? Does Euston become the turnback sidings for OOC too? Pretty expensive if that's the case.
If I remember the figures correctly (and it is a long time ago) roughly 1 in 3 of the passengers on HS2 will alight at OOC and the other 2 in 3 at Euston. The differing range of destinations available from each station accounts for the different choices. For a full HS2 service to operate, both stations are needed.

One thing I don't think the demand model did very well was to examine whether people would prefer to board northbound trains on HS2 at Euston rather than OOC. There is a natural desire to spend any waiting time on your preassigned seat on the train awaiting departure rather than on a platform at OOC waiting the train's arrival. Therefore I suspect there may be an imbalance between southbound and northbound traffic flows.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Paddington is in the sticks, Euston is more usefully located for continuing on foot/by bicycle. But I don't doubt OOC will be well used.
Paddington is not "in the sticks." It has a major hospital next door, innumerable small hotels nearby and Marble Arch is a few minutes walk away. It is a bit further away from "the middle" than any other London terminus but that isn't critical because much of London is not in "the middle" either. Places like Bayswater, Notting Hill and Earls Court are closer to Paddington than to any other terminus.
 

Bletchleyite

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Paddington is not "in the sticks." It has a major hospital next door, innumerable small hotels nearby and Marble Arch is a few minutes walk away. It is a bit further away from "the middle" than any other London terminus but that isn't critical because much of London is not in "the middle" either. Places like Bayswater, Notting Hill and Earls Court are closer to Paddington than to any other terminus.

It is further from most of the places people generally want to go, particularly on business, than the other termini are. As such, and combined with Crossrail serving those places directly, a lot of people are likely to wish to change at Old Oak Common onto Crossrail to reach those places easily. They can also change at Paddington, of course, but then if they do they likely won't get a seat on Crossrail.

I reckon for most of London I'd change at OOC on the way in and Paddington on the way out for that exact (seat getting, and civility of boarding at a terminus) reason.
 
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stuu

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Paddington is not "in the sticks." It has a major hospital next door, innumerable small hotels nearby and Marble Arch is a few minutes walk away. It is a bit further away from "the middle" than any other London terminus but that isn't critical because much of London is not in "the middle" either. Places like Bayswater, Notting Hill and Earls Court are closer to Paddington than to any other terminus.
It is a lot further out than any of the other termini from any properly major destinations. I would be interested to see the proportion of onward travel for each station. Paddington doesn't even have much of a proper entrance from the street
 

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It is a lot further out than any of the other termini from any properly major destinations. I would be interested to see the proportion of onward travel for each station. Paddington doesn't even have much of a proper entrance from the street

I'd be interested to see the proportion of onward travel from *any* of the terminii. How many people coming in to Euston or St P/KX just walk out & don't get on the tube?

There's not exactly many terminii ideally placed for the Docklands, nor the west end business areas. Paddington's not as good as CharingX for hte latter, but it's a straight shot on the Bakerloo.
 
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jfollows

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I'd be interested to see the proportion of onward travel from *any* of the terminii. How many people coming in to Euston or St P/KX just walk out & don't get on the tube?
I suspect this is coloured by lack of familiarity with visitors - I know I myself had little clue about walking around London until I moved there. Now I frequently walk from Euston or take a bus.
And Paddington is a little "difficult" I agree. It was great for me from Imperial College across Hyde Park back a long time ago, but it's been a bit isolated compared to other termini for a while.
 

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I suspect this is coloured by lack of familiarity with visitors - I know I myself had little clue about walking around London until I moved there. Now I frequently walk from Euston or take a bus.

The thing to know about central London is that it's much smaller north-south than east-west. You can walk from Euston to the Thames in about 25 minutes. Walking to theatreland or to the offices around Holborn isn't a problem, and plenty of people appear to do that sort of thing judging by the large number of pedestrians heading south in the mornings (pre COVID at least).
 

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The thing to know about central London is that it's much smaller north-south than east-west. You can walk from Euston to the Thames in about 25 minutes. Walking to theatreland or to the offices around Holborn isn't a problem, and plenty of people appear to do that sort of thing judging by the large number of pedestrians heading south in the mornings (pre COVID at least).
Totally agreed.
The walk from Euston to IBM South Bank via Red Lion Square and the Inns of Court was a pleasure and not onerous at all, provoked by a tube strike I recall.
 

stuu

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I'd be interested to see the proportion of onward travel from *any* of the terminii. How many people coming in to Euston or St P/KX just walk out & don't get on the tube?

There's not exactly many terminii ideally placed for the Docklands, nor the west end business areas. Paddington's not as good as CharingX for hte latter, but it's a straight shot on the Bakerloo.
There is a TfL report from 2011 which has the data, Paddington is the lowest by a fair margin for people walking out
 

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I walked back from Charing Cross to Euston one night, wasn't a particularly arduous walk, although I ended up spending hours sitting outside the station before I could get the train in the morning.
 

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Totally agreed.
The walk from Euston to IBM South Bank via Red Lion Square and the Inns of Court was a pleasure and not onerous at all, provoked by a tube strike I recall.
When I worked in various offices around Euston station, most days I would walk down to Oxford Street and back via various routes, easily accomplished within the hour with a short stop somewhere for lunch. Google maps suggest it's about 1 mile each way. On nice light evenings I would very occasionally walk from the Euston area to Paddington in the evening to get my train home. That's quite a bit further at nearly 2.5 miles, so much less attractive. I never had time for that in the mornings!
 

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These things change, of course. On the WCML Watford Junction has lost importance in favour of MKC.

I think you probably want to serve both, though. The GWR of today is mostly a semifast commuter style service anyway, with the exception of the Penzance services.

A high-speed service should service both Reading AND Old Oak, as they will both be (and continue to be in the case of Reading) considerable interchanges. Reading is sort of "the" interchange for South Central England.

I also wouldn't consider Paddington-Swansea or Worcester/Hereford a "semi-fast commuter style service".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Paddington is in the sticks, Euston is more usefully located for continuing on foot/by bicycle. But I don't doubt OOC will be well used.

Another ridiculous trope often trotted out here that it is "in the sticks" - okay not as central as others, but not by fine and very close to Hyde Park, Marble Arch and then onto Oxford Street with development still going up all around. It's hardly a field in the middle of nowhere. Don't disagree though that Paddington's usage will seriously diminish when OOC opens which I started a thread on before (see here)
 

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A high-speed service should service both Reading AND Old Oak, as they will both be (and continue to be in the case of Reading) considerable interchanges. Reading is sort of "the" interchange for South Central England.

I agree.

I also wouldn't consider Paddington-Swansea or Worcester/Hereford a "semi-fast commuter style service".

Worcester/Hereford is a semifast regional service in character. It's not at all dissimilar to some of the further-out SWR or Southern services - not at all InterCity.

Paddington-Swansea is IC-ish, but not that fast. Bristol is definitely similar to some longer distance South East commuter services.

Another ridiculous trope often trotted out here that it is "in the sticks" - okay not as central as others, but not by fine and very close to Hyde Park, Marble Arch and then onto Oxford Street with development still going up all around. It's hardly a field in the middle of nowhere.

It's out of the way compared with most London termini.
 

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So you are happy to extend journey times to the south west? Even a 5 minute journey extension is an extension. Would passengers to the north west or north east tolerate such an extension? Oh no, of course not. But they are getting vastly speeded up services, whilst poor old Cornwall still has the same journey times to London it had in HST days. No wonder levelling up is needed, I'm just not convinced the Government are looking at levelling up the right areas of the country!

5 minutes of a 4-5 hour journey is much better than 5 minutes added to a 1 hour journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Worcester/Hereford is a semifast regional service in character. It's not at all dissimilar to some of the further-out SWR or Southern services - not at all InterCity.

Paddington-Swansea is IC-ish, but not that fast. Bristol is definitely similar to some longer distance South East commuter services.

It's out of the way compared with most London termini.

Well that's already rather different from "semi-fast commuter service". It seems you only consider IC as anything that goes from Euston or Kings Cross, which isn't a description that I can agree with.

Again geographically, I can't disagree but there is a difference between "in the sticks" and "slightly further out than some other London terminals". As others have noted, how many truly continue their journeys by foot for wherever their destination is in C. London?
 

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Is Hyde park really a major traffic generator?

I would argue its the opposite, its a void in the middle of London.
 
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