How important is OOC to HS2?

[quantinghome]

Thought this comment in another thread was an interesting point (although I disagree).

... In it's original form it was "Design a high-speed line from London to the West Midlands, and include access to Heathrow Airport". This brief was later extended to Manchester and Leeds.

By forcing them to design in access to Heathrow, they've ended up with the cost of a second un-necessary station in London (£2bn?), plus an extra ten minutes and an extra ten miles on all HS2 journeys to central London. And it means that Euston (several £billion more) will only ever serve trains that are half full. Old Oak Common, if needed at all, would have been much cheaper and much more useful on the WCML fast lines, rather than on the high-speed route.

If the brief had been "Relieve the inner WCML", it would have been so much easier. They could have just dug a twin-bore tunnel from Euston to Tring, and then a two-track railway across open country to just past Rugby (and perhaps continuing to Leicester).

That would have addressed the inner WCML, which is the biggest issue facing the rail network today. And it would have left ~£30bn over to solve the next biggest issue, which is how to get more rail passengers into, out of, through and between Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

My view is that Old Oak Common is significantly more important than merely offering a connection to Heathrow (although that is a significant benefit on its own).

Connecting the GWML and HS2 at OOC also gives you:

- a convenient direct interchange from HS2 onto Crossrail which isn't possible at Euston.
- much improved access between West London and the Midlands and North.
- a direct connection from HS2 into the Thames Valley.
- less risk of overloading the underground at Euston.
- opens up a huge swathe of development.

 

[Nottingham59]

Connecting the GWML and HS2 at OOC also gives you:

- a convenient direct interchange from HS2 onto Crossrail which isn't possible at Euston.
- much improved access between West London and the Midlands and North.
- a direct connection from HS2 into the Thames Valley.
- less risk of overloading the underground at Euston.
- opens up a huge swathe of development.

I'd agree with nearly all of that.

I do think that OOC has scope to become a major interchange to the West of London, rather like Stratford is to the East. But my view, for what it's worth, is that a London West interchange traffic would be mostly with short and medium distance, rather than long-distance journeys. Just like Stratford to the East. There are good reasons why Eurostar don't stop at Stratford International, and indeed why Avanti rarely stop at Watford Junction. So better to connect OOC to WCML rather than HS2.

I might be wrong of course; time will tell. But the more passengers that get off HS2 at Old Oak, the less use is made of all that investment at Euston.

What I would have done is build a surface station at Old Oak Common, with connections to GWML, Chiltern mainline (via the North London Line), WCML and Crossrail.

Mirroring what you say above, connecting the GWML and WCML/CML at OOC also gives you
- a convenient direct interchange from WCML/CML onto Crossrail which isn't possible at Euston/Marylebone
- much improved access between West London and the Midlands
- a direct connection from WCML/CML into the Thames Valley.
- less risk of overloading the underground at Euston.
- opens up a huge swathe of development.

- Plus scope to open up new routes like Northampton, MK, OOC, Reading, Basingstoke. That would be amazingly useful for some.

I'd also investigate using the WCML slows as a sort of Crossrail 3, linking Eustion to OOC and on to Heathrow via GWML. But that's even more speculative.

But it's all far too late for this of course, because the original HS2 design was obsessed with maximum speeds rather than connectivity.

 

[Mikey C]

Won't changing at Old Oak Common also become a more attractive option than taking Cross Country trains via Reading?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The offset of whether Old Oak Common is worth building, after it's bonus connections are listed, is the time penalty it causes.
Does anyone know how many minutes from a London to Birmingham trip it eats up?

 

[edwin_m]

I think we discussed this some time ago, and from anywhere west of about Swindon it would be quicker to head north via Birmingham instead. But I also think someone said all GW fast line trains would need to stop at OOC if any did, because of capacity issues.

 

[nw1]

Won't changing at Old Oak Common also become a more attractive option than taking Cross Country trains via Reading?

I suspect so yes, as long as people aren't priced off travelling that way.

 

[Nottingham59]

Does anyone know how many minutes from a London to Birmingham trip it eats up?

I understand a stop in a high speed line eats up about 8 minutes, though according to HS2's "journey planner" OOC to Interchange is 32 mins and Euston to Interchange is 38 minutes. But it's not just the stop at OOC; it's the extra 5 miles distance.

Five minutes out of Euston, you want to be heading North at 200mph, not heading south-west and slowing to call at Old Oak Common.

 

[irish_rail]

Biggest negative of OOC is making all GWR trains stop there.

 

[tomuk]

I'd agree with nearly all of that.

I do think that OOC has scope to become a major interchange to the West of London, rather like Stratford is to the East. But my view, for what it's worth, is that a London West interchange traffic would be mostly with short and medium distance, rather than long-distance journeys. Just like Stratford to the East. There are good reasons why Eurostar don't stop at Stratford International, and indeed why Avanti rarely stop at Watford Junction.

But Eurostar are international trains whereas at OOC we are talking about internal trains and in the case of Birmingham hardly traditional long distance either with a journey time of only 38 mins. HiSpeed Javelin services to Kent stop at Strtford Internatonal.

OOC and Euston spread the burden of passengers on local transport links. OOC East to West with GWML and Crossrail (And Heathrow and London Overground). Euston the city centre and more North South with Northern Line and Victoria Line. Thameslink isn't that far either and would be even easier with the mooted Crossrail 2 Euston\Kings Cross\St Pancras station.

 

[cle]

But Eurostar are international trains whereas at OOC we are talking about internal trains and in the case of Birmingham hardly traditional long distance either with a journey time of only 38 mins. HiSpeed Javelin services to Kent stop at Strtford Internatonal.

OOC and Euston spread the burden of passengers on local transport links. OOC East to West with GWML and Crossrail (And Heathrow and London Overground). Euston the city centre and more North South with Northern Line and Victoria Line. Thameslink isn't that far either and would be even easier with the mooted Crossrail 2 Euston\Kings Cross\St Pancras station.

Agree. The London conurbation is far too large to have singular stations on future routes. The likes of Stratford, Finsbury Park, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall - and even smaller iterations like West Hampstead, Lewisham, Denmark Hill, Ealing Broadway - play a very important role in dispersing people across the metro area and relieving the termini - and thus the tube.

Even London Bridge is this, technically. Imagine services to Charing Cross without it (or Waterloo East). And it's an exercise in placemaking. I remember what Stratford was like in the 80s and 90s.

OOC will be a huge success, and the Heathrow connection cannot be underestimated (those off HS2 but also off the WLL/NLL) and of course, the outer GWML fasts. Inner GWML folks will hope for a Hayes call, but OOC is still decent enough.

GWML users will grumble until it's open. It will be far easier than using Paddington - more likely to get a seat due to starters, and probably quicker due to slow terminus approaches and disembarking. I expect in many cases, you'll overtake your 800

 

[stuu]

GWML users will grumble until it's open. It will be far easier than using Paddington - more likely to get a seat due to starters, and probably quicker due to slow terminus approaches and disembarking. I expect in many cases, you'll overtake your 800

Inbound definitely, outbound almost certainly not, at least for long distance passengers.

To answer the question: very. The extra connections and the reduction in demand at Euston are key.

The refusal to spend enough on decent connections to the Overground is a problem though, hopefully that can be sorted out but not likely with the current political outlook

 

[The Planner]

I'd also investigate using the WCML slows as a sort of Crossrail 3, linking Eustion to OOC and on to Heathrow via GWML. But that's even more speculative.

But it's all far too late for this of course, because the original HS2 design was obsessed with maximum speeds rather than connectivity.

Already done and decided against in about 2013. The amount of Crossrail trains they wanted to send up there would have destroyed the slow lines.

 

[Hadders]

One of the biggest benefits is unlocking land for development.

 

[Bald Rick]

The offset of whether Old Oak Common is worth building, after it's bonus connections are listed, is the time penalty it causes.
Does anyone know how many minutes from a London to Birmingham trip it eats up?

I understand a stop in a high speed line eats up about 8 minutes, though according to HS2's "journey planner" OOC to Interchange is 32 mins and Euston to Interchange is 38 minutes. But it's not just the stop at OOC; it's the extra 5 miles distance.

a very rough rule of thumb is :

linespeed 100mph costs 4 mins
linespeed 125mph costs 5 mins
linespeed 186mph costs 7 mins

In this case the linespeed on the London side is 140mph (just) but the trains will have spectacular acceleration, so this will cost around 5 mins.

 

[irish_rail]

GWML users will grumble until it's open. It will be far easier than using Paddington - more likely to get a seat due to starters, and probably quicker due to slow terminus approaches and disembarking. I expect in many cases, you'll overtake your 800

I have to disagree. If I'm going to Central London and getting a taxi somewhere Paddington is far far better. Also the tube network at Paddington connects the useful termini of other stations such as Euston, Kings Cross etc. I can walk to many attractions of Central London within half an hour, and not to mention the tourist side of Paddington Station (the grandest of all London termini arguably) which in itself is an attraction. All OOC is going to do is add minutes to my already long journey. I also think the planners need to observe passengers empty off an IET at Paddington with all luggage in tow and they will soon realise that we are looking at probably a 4 or 5 minute stop at OOC if it is indeed going to be well used, unless of course you replace all IETs with trains with doors all down the carriage like a commuter train. Either way, I think users in the south west and south Wales lose.

 

[stuu]

What proportion of passengers on the average long distance arrival at Paddington have significant luggage? In my experience very few, although summer weekends are very different. Changing from the west to Crossrail will be much quicker at OOC, but as I said previously, leaving London, Paddington is going to be the better option, with the facilities, more time and more chance to get a seat etc.

Whilst Paddington obviously has significant heritage value and interest, I doubt it is a factor for more than a very tiny minority of passengers

 

[irish_rail]

What proportion of passengers on the average long distance arrival at Paddington have significant luggage? In my experience very few, although summer weekends are very different. Changing from the west to Crossrail will be much quicker at OOC, but as I said previously, leaving London, Paddington is going to be the better option, with the facilities, more time and more chance to get a seat etc.

Whilst Paddington obviously has significant heritage value and interest, I doubt it is a factor for more than a very tiny minority of passengers

From the south west (ie Exeter westwards) the majority have significant luggage.

 

[Bald Rick]

All OOC is going to do is add minutes to my already long journey.

Fortunately, decisions like this are not made on the basis of how it suits you (or not). They are taken very carefully considering th eimpsct on all passengers.

 

[stuu]

From the south west (ie Exeter westwards) the majority have significant luggage.

Every day of the week? Unless they only form a tiny minority getting off at Paddington, that simply isn't true. Most people have nothing more than you can carry onto a plane

 

[Pete_uk]

This is a good example of the root and branch advantages of HS2, offering up different journey opportunities other than the trunk London, Birmingham and Manchester route.

 

[irish_rail]

Fortunately, decisions like this are not made on the basis of how it suits you (or not). They are taken very carefully considering th eimpsct on all passengers.

Sorry, how is this to do with me? Anyone in Devon and Cornwall will disbenefit from their train having to stop at OOC. There is simply no advantage. The interchange at Paddington we have now is good, OOC isn't going to be any better, and as has been discussed on previous threads, travelling via London to the north will not be any quicker than is the case presently via XC, so I cannot see the point, other than the planners wanting every train to stop at OOC , whether warranted or not.

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry, how is this to do with me? Anyone in Devon and Cornwall will disbenefit from their train having to stop at OOC. There is simply no advantage. The interchange at Paddington we have now is good, OOC isn't going to be any better, and as has been discussed on previous threads, travelling via London to the north will not be any quicker than is the case presently via XC, so I cannot see the point, other than the planners wanting every train to stop at OOC , whether warranted or not.

If, as is quite likely, the western rail access doesn't go ahead, changing at OOC will be the quickest way to Heathrow from everywhere further west.

 

[irish_rail]

If, as is quite likely, the western rail access doesn't go ahead, changing at OOC will be the quickest way to Heathrow from everywhere further west.

I wonder what percentage of people on a Penzance to Paddington train are heading to Heathrow. Very very few id wager. And OOC may save these few people about 15 minutes. Except rather than level crossing Paddington Station with all the the luggage they will be forced to go up and down lifts or escalators. Not really sure the hassle is worth the 15 minute or so saving.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry, how is this to do with me?

because you said:

All OOC is going to do is add minutes to my already long journey.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder what percentage of people on a Penzance to Paddington train are heading to Heathrow. Very very few id wager. And OOC may save these few people about 15 minutes. Except rather than level crossing Paddington Station with all the the luggage they will be forced to go up and down lifts or escalators. Not really sure the hassle is worth the 15 minute or so saving.

You asked what benefit it would be to you. I don't know if you travel to Heathrow but it's a possible benefit to some people. If I recall correctly one of the early HS2 studies reckoned about 8% of its passengers might be heading for Heathrow so maybe similar for South Wales and the West Country - possibly more as that area has fewer airports than the North?

Changing from long distance to Heathrow Express at Paddington involves dragging any luggage over the west end bridge (step only I think) or right to the front of the train, out through the barrier and back in. Crossrail may lead to removal of Heathrow trains from the high level at Paddington, making the change even longer. OOC should have ample lift and escalator provision and will probably be an easier change.

 

[MarkyT]

You asked what benefit it would be to you. I don't know if you travel to Heathrow but it's a possible benefit to some people. If I recall correctly one of the early HS2 studies reckoned about 8% of its passengers might be heading for Heathrow so maybe similar for South Wales and the West Country - possibly more as that area has fewer airports than the North?

Changing from long distance to Heathrow Express at Paddington involves dragging any luggage over the west end bridge (step only I think) or right to the front of the train, out through the barrier and back in. Crossrail may lead to removal of Heathrow trains from the high level at Paddington, making the change even longer. OOC should have ample lift and escalator provision and will probably be an easier change.

And that 15+ minutes time saving could turn out to be critical in getting to the gate in time at the airport if you happened to be running late.
New electric & bimode units' acceleration under the wires on GWML make an additional call less of a time penalty than it would have been under the old HST/Turbo regime. I think OOC will continue developing in the longer term as an increasingly useful interchange hub, coupled with it becoming a major new west London commercial centre in its own right; a 'Docklands of the west' if you like. Trains of all service tiers on Shinkansen lines entering highly polycentric Tokyo all make an edge city call at an alternate major hub before reaching the central terminus. As proposed in London, this spreads the interchange load and offers a wider range of convenient connections.

 

[jfollows]

Inbound definitely, outbound almost certainly not, at least for long distance passengers.

To answer the question: very. The extra connections and the reduction in demand at Euston are key.

The refusal to spend enough on decent connections to the Overground is a problem though, hopefully that can be sorted out but not likely with the current political outlook

That's my view too; I live a couple of miles from Manchester Airport station on HS2 and I'd expect to get off at Old Oak Common unless I have a specific destination easier reached from Euston (say 25% of the time, UCL being one obvious example), but for the return journey I'd almost always expect to use Euston to get on a train prior to departure.

 

[coppercapped]

Thought this comment in another thread was an interesting point (although I disagree).



My view is that Old Oak Common is significantly more important than merely offering a connection to Heathrow (although that is a significant benefit on its own).

Connecting the GWML and HS2 at OOC also gives you:

- a convenient direct interchange from HS2 onto Crossrail which isn't possible at Euston.
- much improved access between West London and the Midlands and North.
- a direct connection from HS2 into the Thames Valley.
- less risk of overloading the underground at Euston.
- opens up a huge swathe of development.

A significant part of the reason for the construction of the OOC station given in the business case/planning documents for HS2 (such as Demand and Appraisal Report HS2 London - West Midlands MVA Consultancy April 2012, see [1] below) is to avoid overloading the tube/bus distribution system at Euston with several hundred passengers per HS2 train arriving at intervals of four minutes or so. The tube/bus/taxi loadings at Euston cannot be viewed in isolation as St Pancras and Kings Cross are next door together with other major traffic generators.

Studies showed that some 30% of passengers would be expected to transfer to Crossrail for all or part of their onward journey so relieving the load at Euston. This is especially important as Crossrail 2 has been postponed — at best — for several years; this would also have increased the distribution capacity at King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston.

Connections to Heathrow and the GW were a 'nice to have', but not the main reason.

[1] 4.2.10 The pressures on the Underground network at Euston have been outlined above. It also outlines the impact of HS2 at Euston in the central case – including Old Oak Common. The Old Oak Common interchange helps to relieve pressure at Euston, and provides wider accessibility benefits for passengers travelling to London.

 

[D365]

As proposed in London, this spreads the interchange load and offers a wider range of convenient connections.

Which is a very good point, given that Crossrail 2 has been indefinitely postponed.

 

[quantinghome]

Connections to Heathrow and the GW were a 'nice to have', but not the main reason.

I suspect these will be significantly greater traffic generators than currently predicted.

The proportion of people accessing Heathrow from the Midlands and the North by public transport must be pretty slim. Likewise car journeys must be the dominant mode for journey from the Midlands and North to the Thames Valley. OOC will provide serious competition to the M40 and A34.