How does the Dutch rail network work?

[radamfi]

Our TOCs very rarely do because it will affect the figures or is just too much effort - when it is written policy not to hold anything even for your own passengers let alone those off other TOCs such timetables are useless far too often.

But this was the case under BR as well. There has always been a no connections policy. The point is that British passengers don't seem to appreciate it or even understand it even when a good connection is provided. Maybe it is because they have had such bad experience in connecting in the past that it has become culturally/socially unacceptable to change.

 

[Greenback]

But this was the case under BR as well. There has always been a no connections policy. The point is that British passengers don't seem to appreciate it or even understand it even when a good connection is provided. Maybe it is because they have had such bad experience in connecting in the past that it has become culturally/socially unacceptable to change.

Not entirely true. There was never an official rule, policy on connections was very much a local thing, which led to complaints about inconsistency in different areas, regions or lines. It was this that led to the decision taken in the run up to privatisation that after BR no connections would be guaranteed.

Of course, in reality, connections are often held at stations like Swansea, and passengers cannot be left stranded in the event of late running and missed connections.

 

[WestCoast]

Which is all very good because the likes of NS tend to be proper railways run for the passenger - have a connectional policy and will actually hold trains. Our TOCs very rarely do because it will affect the figures or is just too much effort - when it is written policy not to hold anything even for your own passengers let alone those off other TOCs such timetables are useless far too often.

Not that DB held my RB connection in Nienburg last week, when a packed RE double-decker was delayed by 5 minutes! I'll let them off because there was confusion due to very poor weather.

 

[EWS 58038]

When Midland Mainline had a lot of 170s, they introduced a cunning timetable in which 170s from the north would arrive in Leicester and get looped by fast HSTs which would run non-stop to St Pancras. The intention was that passengers would connect onto the HSTs and get a fast overall journey time. However, most passengers didn't understand this and continued on the 170 stopping at all stops into St Pancras. This timetable was quickly abandoned and the traditional British style timetable reintroduced.

Okay, when you work for the railways there is a rule you learn pretty fast. "Passengers are dumb animals". So, to change the behaviour of the animal you need to tell it what to do.

Clearly the above was a superb system, and if it works on the continent I see no reason why it shouldn't in the UK. The problem is that passengers were probably not advised of this and the "commercial" department of MML clearly missed the boat in this one.

A timetable change isn't done from one day at the other, but needs months of advising people in advance. Spread leaflets on the train, make people aware with posters and commercials... even do it via station announcements... But that is another big problem in the UK, there are to many "stupid" announcements.

Hey we come to Holland again. Here the only announcements made is when a train is late, or has a platform change. That's it. Some trains like the Fyra, Thalys or ICE service do have extra announcements to advice people where their "premium" service will depart. Other then that, there are NO train related announcements.

And if an announcement is made, only 5 calling points will be told. The first four and the last one. The reason for this is that humans do not remember more then five place names when they come in a raw.

So if the sprinter from Amsterdam to Almere has a platform change, only Amsterdam Muiderpoort, Sciencepark, Diemen, Weesp and Almere Oostvaarders will be announced. Even mayor stations like Almere Central and Almere Buiten will NOT be announced for this train.

Years of study have resulted in this policy, and people are more then happy with it.

 

[WestCoast]

And if an announcement is made, only 5 calling points will be told. The first four and the last one. The reason for this is that humans do not remember more then five place names when they come in a raw.

Annoucements are indeed kept to a minimum, your VIRMs don't even have an auto-annoucer do they?

Interestingly, announcements I have heard on NS stations have been in dutch only. At DB, it's also in English if it's a long-distance service.

So if the sprinter from Amsterdam to Almere has a platform change, only Amsterdam Muiderpoort, Sciencepark, Diemen, Weesp and Almere Oostvaarders will be announced. Even mayor stations like Almere Central and Almere Buiten will NOT be announced for this train.

Years of study have resulted in this policy, and people are more then happy with it.

Deutsche Bahn gives "key via points" along the service (3-5 stops generally) in annoucements since the network is huge in comparison to NS. I have to admit I think this seems more sensible.

"Platform 1 for the Regional Express XXXX to Braunschweig via Minden, Wunstorf and Hannover Hbf".

The manual announcers at Crewe in the UK have a similar approach.

 

[EWS 58038]

Annoucements are indeed kept to a minimum, your VIRMs don't even have an auto-annoucer do they?

Not yet, but the first vIRM sets are due for their mid-life refurbishment in 5 years, and they will be fully equipped with the latest gadgets...

Interestingly, announcements I have heard on NS stations have been in dutch only. At DB, it's also in English if it's a long-distance service.

Only at Schiphol airport there is a hard rule to announce Intercity services in Dutch and English. High speed services and international services are announced in Dutch, the language of the train destination (French or German) and English.

If you want to work as an announcer at the Amsterdam IECC (What I did for 5 years) you will have to speak Dutch, English, French and German.

 

[WestCoast]

If you want to work as an announcer at the Amsterdam IECC (What I did for 5 years) you will have to speak Dutch, English, French and German.

No problem for the Dutch! You could probably announce everything in English and everyone would understand....

I'm not complaining by the way, it's meerly an observation.

 

[EWS 58038]

No problem for the Dutch! You could probably announce everything in English and everyone would understand....

I'm not complaining by the way, it's meerly an observation.

Do you want it with a Manchester or a Indian accent???

 

[WestCoast]

Do you want it with a Manchester or a Indian accent???

Interesting way to vary the train manager's annoucements

 

[Old Timer]

Not entirely true. There was never an official rule, policy on connections was very much a local thing, which led to complaints about inconsistency in different areas, regions or lines. It was this that led to the decision taken in the run up to privatisation that after BR no connections would be guaranteed.

Of course, in reality, connections are often held at stations like Swansea, and passengers cannot be left stranded in the event of late running and missed connections.

I am sorry but this is completely wrong. I really do not know who told you this but they are very wrong.

BR did have connectional policies, especially concerning late night and weekend trains.

These connectional policies extended into the InterCity/Regional Railways days too. The final arbiter in Class 1 and inter-area class 2 connections was the DCC at Crewe.

Within the areas it was within the gift of the Area Operations Centre Manager.

 

[Greenback]

Well, this is what I was told by a neighbour in the 1970;s who worked for BR. I also remember articles and discussions with BR managers in railway magazines in the 1980's regarding this very issue. Some of the matters raised were why Gloucester services were sometimes held at Swindon for trains arriving from Bristol, to which the response was that there was no such thing as an official connection in that direction, and that it would be down to the supervisor at Swindon as to whether to hold the train for conenctions from London or not.

Another issue raised was that of conenctions to the Tyne Valley at Newcastle from ECML services. The reply given there was that passnegers in danger of missing connections due to late running service should ensure that the train manager was aware of them. The TM would then advise Newcastle station who would decide whether holding the train was justified.

This sounds more like the pragmatic approach I remember. Presumably the decision would have been made based on how many people were affected, both on the late running service and on the connecting train.

If the magazines and neighbour were incorrect, and I would not doubt your own first hand knowledge on this, can you give an indication of what the national policies were?

 

[stanley T]

As befits a small crowded country, Dutch railways are a metro, and a very good one too. The downside is that the trains are slow. Except on the new HSL, I think they don't go any faster than 130km/h or so? It always amazed me, pre HSL, that it took 3 hours for the train to go from Amsterdam to Brussels when you could drive it in two.

UK has an equivalent, of frequent slow trains serving everywhere, it used to be called Southern Region. It even also has underpowered DC electrification system and a new high speed line of limited domestic use. The main difference is that no-one bothers with connections when everyone is assumed to be going to London.

 

[radamfi]

AFAIK the usual top speed outside the HSL-Zuid is 140 km/h. There are some pretty long trips possible in the Netherlands, such as Roodeschool-Vlissingen which is 420 tariff km, which has a walk up fare of €14.10 with a 40% off card.

 

[EWS 58038]

And here is how to dismantle NS and split the rail system in 11 franchises... http://www.mobiliteitnederland.nl/pdf/201106/Het Nieuwe Spoorplan.pdf

It has been consulted twice... By a normal consultant and SBB. Both concluded this could be the way forward.

 

[shinkansen1966]

. Things can be done if you really want. Britain isn't that less wealthy than Belgium and Netherlands but chooses to spend its money in a different way

To some extent, Britain mismanages money spent on public transport namely:

• setting up of SRA only to scrap it less than 10 years later
• Waterloo International now just lying dormant
• multiple, wasteful and duplicate station signage, uniforms and web sites
• recent report suggesting that Britain railways where 30-40% more expensive to run than other european railways on a like for like basis
• costly tendering process for franchise bids, for instance East Coast is now on its fourth owner in less than 15 years