How Do You Solve A Problem Like Sundays?

[O L Leigh]

Well, we have a rostered standby and spare on each shift on a Sunday, so there's always a few bodies to soak up the work straight away even before getting to those who want extras. I expect that's partly down to the size of the depot and it can make a big difference to those who want to get out of their rostered turn.

But then most drivers aren't too concerned about blowing their Sundays in. There was an opt-out some years ago that some drivers exercised which is still in force, but for the rest of us it's a quick, easy, guaranteed way of earning a little extra.

O L Leigh

 

[1V53]

Arriva Trains Wales don't have spares on Sundays.... That's actually another thing to ponder.

 

[O L Leigh]

It is, but adding them to your roster is only going to serve to increase your workload on the supposed Day of Rest.

O L Leigh

 

[1V53]

Yes had just worked that through and rejected the idea!

 

[O L Leigh]

Especially if they're only going to be used to allow other drivers the day off.

No, I don't think you should be putting that one forward in your company's staff suggestion box.

O L Leigh

 

[Greenback]

There isn't a lot of flexibility or choice when it comes to rostering, though. The roster has to be written in it's entirety every 6 months prior to the TT change to ensure that all jobs are covered. If drivers have preferences about earlies, lates or when their days off fall it is up to them to arrange the swaps and to notify the roster clerk in good time before that week's roster is published (usually no later than the Wed of the week before).

The roster also has to balance in terms of the booked hours over whatever cycle it is operates on, and unfortunately the job is such that most earlies book on before 7am and most lates from around 2pm.

And then you come to the problem of meeting individual drivers needs because each driver will have a different family situation and may prefer a certain pattern of working that might not suit the next guy. Plus you can't even offer permanent earlies/lates/nights because you won't be able to deliver that to everyone. I wouldn't think that bringing Saturdays into the discussion is helpful either, as we have almost as many Sat jobs as there are on weekdays and many more than there are on Sun.

The fairest system is to permit a certain amount of swapping and leave it up to the drivers to sort it all out amongst themselves. We all know who the people are who like a certain shift or want those jobs that start or finish at a certain location.

O L Leigh

I don;t know whether such a system would work. It would require a very different approach to the traditional one, that's for sure!

But I have two friends who are, or were, bus drivers. One preferred earlies, the other lates. They couldn;t swap with each other as they wer ein different rotas, but each of them would have welcomed the chance to 'sign' for a permanent set of duties every six months.

I have heard from some of my contacts that a TOC has started to implement such an idea, or soemthing quite similar to it. I can't remember which one it was, though!

Those who opted for a day type turn would have to do more Sundays in their rota than those who are doing the very early starts or the late finishes.

 

[bluenoxid]

Blimey!! We're only just into March. Can't you come back with that one again in about, oh, 9 months time...?

O L Leigh

Timetable planning is starting now for the Christmas period. Now is the time to sort it.

This is complicated so bear with me

I think the best way to do it is to allocate the rosters to the depot. You pay a slightly enhanced rate for Sundays plus a lump sum to all staff that is docked to all staff if diagrams are uncovered if they fail to fill them. Individual benefits and joint penalisation. The two best ways to motivate them.

For supermarket managers.

You have 3 sunday shifts. Any staff who work Sundays get 1.25 but if diagrams are left uncovered all staff at the depot are penalised from their Sunday lump sum/bonus which maybe valued at upto £5,000. Dock a £100 from everyone if a diagram is not covered at roster clark time, £50 if spare is not covered.

Everyone wins, everyone gains.

Examples

Everyone pulls a "London Midland"

All staff lose £5,000 bonus. Staff at other depots get 1.25 if they work. May even get an additional enhanced for covering another depot.

All diagrams are filled

All staff gain £5,000 plus staff that work gain 1.25 pay.

One weekend is not covered, but just no spare.

£50 knocked off bonus from everyone but staff who work get 1.25 pay.

 

[tbtc]

I don;t know whether such a system would work. It would require a very different approach to the traditional one, that's for sure!

But I have two friends who are, or were, bus drivers. One preferred earlies, the other lates. They couldn;t swap with each other as they wer ein different rotas, but each of them would have welcomed the chance to 'sign' for a permanent set of duties every six months.

I have heard from some of my contacts that a TOC has started to implement such an idea, or soemthing quite similar to it. I can't remember which one it was, though!

Those who opted for a day type turn would have to do more Sundays in their rota than those who are doing the very early starts or the late finishes.

That sounds reasonable to me - I have my preferred times at work, most people do - if I had to work shifts then I'd rather have predictable ones - wouldn't it be easier for the TOC to allow people to "fix" their shift pattern, rather than leaving it for staff to have to "swap" around? Is there a danger there that some shifts don't get picked up?

 

[1V53]

Timetable planning is starting now for the Christmas period. Now is the time to sort it.

This is complicated so bear with me

I think the best way to do it is to allocate the rosters to the depot. You pay a slightly enhanced rate for Sundays plus a lump sum to all staff that is docked to all staff if diagrams are uncovered if they fail to fill them. Individual benefits and joint penalisation. The two best ways to motivate them.

For supermarket managers.

You have 3 sunday shifts. Any staff who work Sundays get 1.25 but if diagrams are left uncovered all staff at the depot are penalised from their Sunday lump sum/bonus which maybe valued at upto £5,000. Dock a £100 from everyone if a diagram is not covered at roster clark time, £50 if spare is not covered.

Everyone wins, everyone gains.

The problem is our depot has a lot of Sundays and a number of people who don't work and don't want to work Sundays and aren't interested in any financial incentive. Despite a large number of people keen to work them, we have some awful 10 hr shifts which don't fit on many Sundays due to the shifts before or after, so the depot is very easily in a situation where work is uncovered despite willing volunteers and all manner of creative work is required by roster clerks to cover them, sometimes including letting people do a late and covering their early shift to give them Monday off.

Depots with fewer Sundays would have more problems than ones with more, it would be a difficult one to do fairly, but if done fairly it could well be a workable incentive.

 

[Greenback]

That's what I was thinking tbtc (sorry 1V53 we posted at the same time). There was the choice, when I worked in a mail centre, to opt for a permanent shift or stay on a rotation. The latter suited some, others preferred to know when they would be working (within a ten or so hour band ie start between 0500 and 0730, finish between 1230 and 1530 depending on the duty).

If such a scheme was to work on the railways, it would need a whole new way of thinking though...

 

[O L Leigh]

I have two friends who are, or were, bus drivers. One preferred earlies, the other lates. They couldn;t swap with each other as they wer ein different rotas, but each of them would have welcomed the chance to 'sign' for a permanent set of duties every six months.

I'm sure. But where I work it would simply be the case that these two drivers could just agree to swap (provided that the lines and shifts matched up). Simple.

I think the best way to do it is to allocate the rosters to the depot. You pay a slightly enhanced rate for Sundays plus a lump sum to all staff that is docked to all staff if diagrams are uncovered if they fail to fill them.

This simply isn't needed. Where blowing in a Sunday is dependent on cover you don't need to have a stick or carrot. It's O/T plain and simple, and the fact of that alone is enough to prompt some drivers to put their hands up for extras.

That sounds reasonable to me - I have my preferred times at work, most people do - if I had to work shifts then I'd rather have predictable ones - wouldn't it be easier for the TOC to allow people to "fix" their shift pattern, rather than leaving it for staff to have to "swap" around? Is there a danger there that some shifts don't get picked up?

It's not a simple matter because rostering can't be fixed in such a way and it certainly wouldn't be fair to attempt it, which was the point I was trying to make before.

O L Leigh

 

[Zoe]

On a related note, I find that Sunday evening services can be some of the busiest. Is there a case for making 4 PM to 8 PM Sunday peak?

 

[1V53]

On a related note, I find that Sunday evening services can be some of the busiest. Is there a case for making 4 PM to 8 PM Sunday peak?

Depends where you are I guess. On ATW the busiest time is from 10am building up to 12 noon then busy till 6pm then winds down to 8pm, then dead. Depends if your area/TOC is mostly long distance (ATW) or local or inter-urban.

Going back to people doing shifts they like.... you have to do the rough with the smooth. Our most disliked shifts are long middles (1100 thru 1300ish to 2100-2300ish. Nobody likes them. We don't really have anyone who 'likes' lates but most like earlies. However I do remember an ex colleague who loved lates and thinking about it now there are two guys who do swap so they are on permanent lates/earlies.

The thing is I dont mind lates for different reasons to why I like earlies (lates all day off before work and earlies all afternoon off). I'd be a bit cheesed off if anyone didn't do the rough with the smooth and just got all of one or the other without doing the nasty middles that nobody likes!

 

[ainsworth74]

On a related note, I find that Sunday evening services can be some of the busiest. Is there a case for making 4 PM to 8 PM Sunday peak?

Surely that would just complicate things? As it stands now the whole weekend is off-peak which makes life nice and simple, also making a Sunday peak will also penalise the leisure market possibly driving people away (unless that was your intention).

 

[Zoe]

Surely that would just complicate things? As it stands now the whole weekend is off-peak which makes life nice and simple, also making a Sunday peak will also penalise the leisure market possibly driving people away (unless that was your intention).

It wouldn't be my first choice either but some Intercity services on Sunday evening are packed. I could see it as one way of reducing overcrowding on these by encouraging people to travel earlier on Sunday.

 

[Metroland]

Sundays were never a problem until some people started to use them in industrial action, especially as Sunday evenings are the busiest part of the week.

The unions always managed to negotiate into keeping them outside the working week, to afford flexibility for those that wanted to spend some time at home should they be able to get cover.

Certainly in the signalling grades (like others) Sundays were not part of the working week (as they were paid at overtime rates) but they were always rostered. If you didn't want to work it (the odd person occasionally didn't every now and again) you would just need to find cover. We actually did our own rosters, so you knew who would want to pick up the odd extra.

Because Sundays are paid at overtime rates and some people may not want to work them, I suspect having them as part of the working week with cost the TOCs dearly if they want full flexibility and sign up everyone. Realistically that's the only way with maybe a productivity agreement somewhere else.

 

[1V53]

ATW won't pay to train up enough people to make Sunday part of the working week yet they grumble about staff chucking them in and not being able to cover them. The solution is in their hands.

 

[Mojo]

It wouldn't be my first choice either but some Intercity services on Sunday evening are packed. I could see it as one way of reducing overcrowding on these by encouraging people to travel earlier on Sunday.

In my experience on Sundays long distance routes on Sunday evenings are absolutely packed (particularly those going towards London and also on the XC route at least north of Bristol), despite the trains running at the same frequency as during the week. Yet I've travelled on Sunday mornings about 11am and the trains are dead.

 

[Greenback]

The thing is I dont mind lates for different reasons to why I like earlies (lates all day off before work and earlies all afternoon off). I'd be a bit cheesed off if anyone didn't do the rough with the smooth and just got all of one or the other without doing the nasty middles that nobody likes!

One persons rough may be another persons smooth!

 

[Tom B]

But I have two friends who are, or were, bus drivers. One preferred earlies, the other lates. They couldn;t swap with each other as they wer ein different rotas, but each of them would have welcomed the chance to 'sign' for a permanent set of duties every six months.

I believe LU operates a system organised by drivers whereby all drivers signed up to the so-called "mafia" give the organiser their preferences (e.g. prefers earlies, prefers nights etc) and the organiser then juggles the shifts of all the included staff about so as to give them what they want, or as near to as possible.

Equally, some bus companies operate a system where drivers do a week of earlies then a week of lates (split shifts and nights being a seperate roster) - some drivers agree between themselves to swap shifts if one prefers earlies and the others lates.

The problem is at smaller depots when you have a handful that don't want to work Sundays so always chuck them in, the pressure is on everyone else to cover them. I guess 30 staff with 10 Sundays and 5 who dont want to work them and 10 on long weekends it is harder than 90 staff with 30 Sundays, 15 who don't want to work them and 30 on long weekend....? Or maybe not. Am just thinking the bigger the number of staff the more likelihood you will have of covering them whereas a smaller depot there is more impact from one or two on sick.

Reading that it makes no mathematical sense so probably it makes no odds how big the depot is, lol.

I think the ratios may be quite important - for instance, I work in a department of 4 people and we often have to work overtime in the evenings. If one person refuses to work overtime, that just means the 3 others have to do extra evenings. Of course attitudes vary - as a 20something with my eye on my bank account I am often the first to sign up for overtime - a couple of the older guys with family etc are less keen, but do their bit to give us some time off.

Another department who also has to work evenings has about 30 people - so if one refuses to work overtime, it has a negligible effect on the others and there isn't the "oh, if I don't work, so-and-so will have to".

And I shall gloss entirely over one of my slightly crazy colleagues who did a week of 18-hour shifts, and once did 32 consecutive days of 12 hour shifts...!

 

[1V53]

My point was that while earlies or lates have advantages either way depending on your attitude, 1130 till 2130 isn't a favourite of anyones. So that's the 'rough' which goes with your choice of smooth.

There are also those that like the variety, so someone constantly creaming off certain shifts can cause resentment, as can roster clerks who have their favorite staff.

If you come into the railway you should be prepared to do the full range of shifts. If you can't swap mutually then tough. I know I sound harsh but the attitude of some staff who think they can pick and choose really annoys me.

That said, ATW are very good at supporting those with health or family issues and I'm all for a bit of help for short term issues to help people through a few months of problems. I don't agree with giving family friendly shifts to those that choose to have kids but I am doubtless in a minority there... And I realise I am taking this further off topic!

 

[TDK]

Simple question: How do you get the railway set up to run seven days a week?

Sunday is one of the busiest days of the week for shopping. Whilst some commuter routes (C2C etc) see lower demand, it is a very busy day for longer distance leisure travel.

But how does the railway ensure that it has staffing to cope with Sundays?

At the moment provision of a Sunday service tends to rely on overtime, goodwill and coercion. Most railway staff don’t have Sunday working in their contracts (AFAIK), which leaves the railways open to problems like the refusal to work Sundays at London Midland (causing cancellations). Even without industrial action, there’s no guarantee that TOCs will have sufficient staff to provide all scheduled Sunday services.

However, when a TOC like ATW tries to put staff onto a contract where Sunday working is demanded, Unions go on strike.

There has to be a way round this, but what?

Unions won’t be happy with an attempt to put new staff on contracts that make Sunday required. And there seems no easy way to conduct labour negotiations without the Unions. How would you suggest TOCs deal with it?

My preference would be for any new TOC, on a long term contract, to deal with it up front. At the moment no TOC wants to risk the upset and disruption of negotiations (which may result in some Industrial Action), because the short nature of the franchise means that they won’t be around to benefit from the long term improvements of having staff committed to working the Sabbath.

If staff had a working week which involved Sundays (taking a “weekend” midweek instead) then you’d have certainty over the number of trains that could run, you wouldn’t need to rely on people being willing to do overtime, it’d save a lot of negotiation and it’d presumably encourage more Sunday routes (e.g. the reference earlier to some Cardiff area routes only operating every couple of hours on a Sunday, due to not having the staff). Or would some people not commit to work Sundays even for a 50% wage increase?

We can’t go on like this, but how can we improve?

(I’m trying to be neutral here and avoid the tired arguments about Bob Crowe/ religious days etc – sensible suggestions on a way out of this stalemate appreciated)

The root cause for problems with Sundays is the roster in it's current form, due to restrictions with Hidden and currently most early to late transition of shifts is a sunday it is almost physically impossibe to have more than 1 or 2 Sundays rostered in the working 4 week period - when I was a rep for southern they lined up to try and get Sundays in the working week, however it could not be done because of the early/late shift change, that is the first point, the roster will have to be completely changed.

Secondly it is a possibility that all new starters to be given a different contract with Sundays in the working week, this in turn will then escalate with more people over time working Sundays, however this will certainly cause an us and them scenario in the mess room.

Thirdly, a huge amount of money needs to be spent either on wage increases or employing more staff.

When I worked for WSMR Sundays were in the working week and the roster was quite difficult to compile even with 12 drivers however it worked very well for me, we got no enhanement and we got more days off in the week, however that suits me as my kids are all grown up, I am not religious and I quite like working Sundays as you see a totally different passenger base.

The way forward is for ATOC, the Dft and all the comapanies and their unions to get to gether and come up with as many options as they possibly can and the put these options forward even then it may not work.

 

[1V53]

One of the neighbouring depots has a guards roster that changes from lates to earlies in the week, with two days off (Wed and Thurs) in between with a long weekend after the Fri-Thurs earlies (3 week cycle). It seems to work well, there isn't the ridiculous late Sat (1am-2am Sun) finish followed by early (3am-5am) start Monday. There is also the ability to work EVERY Sunday. They still have problems covering Sundays though!