How Do You Solve A Problem Like Sundays?

[tbtc]

Simple question: How do you get the railway set up to run seven days a week?

Sunday is one of the busiest days of the week for shopping. Whilst some commuter routes (C2C etc) see lower demand, it is a very busy day for longer distance leisure travel.

But how does the railway ensure that it has staffing to cope with Sundays?

At the moment provision of a Sunday service tends to rely on overtime, goodwill and coercion. Most railway staff don’t have Sunday working in their contracts (AFAIK), which leaves the railways open to problems like the refusal to work Sundays at London Midland (causing cancellations). Even without industrial action, there’s no guarantee that TOCs will have sufficient staff to provide all scheduled Sunday services.

However, when a TOC like ATW tries to put staff onto a contract where Sunday working is demanded, Unions go on strike.

There has to be a way round this, but what?

Unions won’t be happy with an attempt to put new staff on contracts that make Sunday required. And there seems no easy way to conduct labour negotiations without the Unions. How would you suggest TOCs deal with it?

My preference would be for any new TOC, on a long term contract, to deal with it up front. At the moment no TOC wants to risk the upset and disruption of negotiations (which may result in some Industrial Action), because the short nature of the franchise means that they won’t be around to benefit from the long term improvements of having staff committed to working the Sabbath.

If staff had a working week which involved Sundays (taking a “weekend” midweek instead) then you’d have certainty over the number of trains that could run, you wouldn’t need to rely on people being willing to do overtime, it’d save a lot of negotiation and it’d presumably encourage more Sunday routes (e.g. the reference earlier to some Cardiff area routes only operating every couple of hours on a Sunday, due to not having the staff). Or would some people not commit to work Sundays even for a 50% wage increase?

We can’t go on like this, but how can we improve?

(I’m trying to be neutral here and avoid the tired arguments about Bob Crowe/ religious days etc – sensible suggestions on a way out of this stalemate appreciated)

 

[Pumbaa]

The only way I see it happening is a TOC not publicly owned (ie a partnership or a co-op) who is willing to recompense employees for going to a 7-day rota. It is necessary for the railways to become a 7-day business, but it is also necessary for the companies to recognise that will cost them. Until one brave TOC takes the plunge, the stalemate will continue!

 

[1V53]

If the railway truly want a 7 day service then they need to employ enough staff to run that service and make Sunday part of the working week. Either that or you have to have a compromise where it is overtime, staff are committed to work it but there is a workable agreement in place to ensure staff can take the occasional Sunday and chuck it in, being as they can't book leave being as it is overtime, and the company has safeguards to ensure that they have the vast majority of work easily covered (ie so Sunday opt outs bring no more headaches than any other day does with leave).

 

[jopsuk]

I though there were TOCs on seven-day rotas? Obviously not all. Perhaps someone "inside" can help compile a list? Suspect it may also vary roughly with grades- so brkoen down by (say) Drivers, Guards/traincrew and Station Staff?

 

[tbtc]

The only way I see it happening is a TOC not publicly owned (ie a partnership or a co-op) who is willing to recompense employees for going to a 7-day rota. It is necessary for the railways to become a 7-day business, but it is also necessary for the companies to recognise that will cost them. Until one brave TOC takes the plunge, the stalemate will continue!

This is it. How much more would you need to pay people to get them to agree to scheduled Sundays (not increasing the working week)?

Unfortunately with the "squabble" you tend to get in these arguments, its hard to find any consensus - I'd love to see someone suggest a suitable "cost" that both sides will accept

 

[Statto]

This is it. How much more would you need to pay people to get them to agree to scheduled Sundays (not increasing the working week)?

Unfortunately with the "squabble" you tend to get in these arguments, its hard to find any consensus - I'd love to see someone suggest a suitable "cost" that both sides will accept

The TOCs could change the days the staff work, like 4 days on 2 off.

 

[O L Leigh]

Either that or you have to have a compromise where it is overtime, staff are committed to work it but there is a workable agreement in place to ensure staff can take the occasional Sunday and chuck it in, being as they can't book leave being as it is overtime, and the company has safeguards to ensure that they have the vast majority of work easily covered (ie so Sunday opt outs bring no more headaches than any other day does with leave).

That's pretty much the system we have.

Sunday working is outside of the working week and considered to be (and paid as) O/T. The jobs appear on the roster as normal and it is up to the booked driver to work. However, you can apply to make yourself not available for the Sunday which will usually be granted only subject to cover being available. This may mean that a spare driver tumbles for your job or that it goes instead to another driver who has made themselves available for an additional Sunday. I've never yet had an application to make myself N/A declined, but then I don't opt for this very often. However, I can imagine that it can cause some resentment if you've had an application declined.

Under this system we are not able to withdraw Sunday working en masse as part of a dispute. Prior to the NXEA strike there was an O/T ban and I raised the question with the ASLEF LLR that surely as Sundays were O/T shouldn't they also be caught under an O/T ban. The answer was not clear or adequately full, but basically we couldn't withdraw Sunday working.

O L Leigh

 

[WatcherZero]

I'll raise you one more, Boxing day! One of the busiest shopping days of the year and no trains run!

 

[OuterDistant]

Would they still be able to fit track maintenance in if Sunday services were stepped up?

 

[YorkshireRider]

At EC we have sundays in our rosters as im sure do all the main inter-city operators ( maybe wrong there, feel free to correct me anyone ) but thats because its financially in there intrests because its a big lesuire travel day and they get lots of revenue from advance tickets.

Im not sure there is any financial insentive for local operators such as Northern to go after more sunday services and they probably only run any at all because its a franchise agreement. I think there would have to be a big subsidy increase to start with to make this happen which sadly is very unlikley.

 

[1V53]

You won't get a consensus, because many non railway people look purely at the wage, forget the responsibilty, the antisocial hours (24 hours a day and including Saturday etc and just focus on money. I've spoken to four ATW drivers this morning who ALL said it's not about the money, they want the ability to opt out of a Sunday. They aren't bothered either about having lots of money they just want a bit of meeting half way on the terms and conditions, including a limited ability to opt out of a Sunday occasionally.

The 12% is not what they want. Most dont want more money believe it or not. But as the company are refusing to see the real issue, they are saying 'well if you want to force the issue then give us more money for such restrictive conditions.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'll raise you one more, Boxing day! One of the busiest shopping days of the year and no trains run!

Blimey!! We're only just into March. Can't you come back with that one again in about, oh, 9 months time...?

O L Leigh

 

[CarterUSM]

I'll raise you one more, Boxing day! One of the busiest shopping days of the year and no trains run!

I worked the last 4 boxing days!

 

[driver9000]

That's pretty much the system we have.

Sunday working is outside of the working week and considered to be (and paid as) O/T. The jobs appear on the roster as normal and it is up to the booked driver to work. However, you can apply to make yourself not available for the Sunday which will usually be granted only subject to cover being available. This may mean that a spare driver tumbles for your job or that it goes instead to another driver who has made themselves available for an additional Sunday.

Exactly the same system I work to and it works perfectly well for us.

 

[rodders133]

The reason the company is so desperate for Sundays to be committed is understandable from a business point of view. At the moment, ATW see the voluntary Sundays as a very powerful weapon held by traincrew, and it is a powerful weapon. However it is the only weapon left. I hate using the word weapon, as management and employees should enjoy a harmonious working relationship, but I`m afraid it is what it is.
If ATW do something that is deemed unfair by traincrew, the traincrew have the option of withdrawing the service they provide on a Sunday en masse.
Occasionally, it does come to this, but more often than not, the changes ATW wanted to make are looked into, and a happy medium between traincrew and ATW is reached.
If the staff did not have the option to opt out of Sundays en masse, they fear that their terms and conditions and working practises would take an instant nose dive.

As for aslef not wanting drivers to commit to Sundays, dont bank on that.

The first offer was highly recommended to accept by aslef, but the majority of drivers voted against it.
The company then increased the offer so that Sunday was paid at time and a quarter.

Aslef have had to bow down to their members this time as it is so overwhelming, but they are certainly not against drivers committing to Sundays.

There are a lot of drivers who wouldnt trust aslef as far as they could throw them, and from things that have happened in the past, cannot be blamed.

 

[1V53]

Those above who have the arrangement where they can opt out of one subject to cover... The problem is my depot has a greater than 1 in 3 ratio of Sundays. However Valley Lines have 1 in 8! Now if we were on 1 in 4 or 1 in 5+ this wouldn't be as big a deal, but our Sunday services are busy so we fear being forced to work 2 in 3 as per other days. How on earth would we be able to get cover at these sort of levels as it means someone else working 3 or more on the trot, with all the Hidden restrictions that narrows down the volunteer pool further (someone late Sat can't do an early Sun or an early Mon can't do a late Sun)

 

[Clip]

Not just the TOCs. A lot of the station staff under NR are now on the new contracts where sunday is part of your week whereas any of the old staff that are still around do ont have to work it.

Recompense in a fair format is the only way forward IMO and depending on what your sunday needs you could stipulate that they work any amount of sundays in a 13 week period. that way everyone is treated with teh same amount of sundays off and anyone who takes leave on a sunday can be covered with someone on over time.

It needs a bit of give and take from both the TOCs and teh Unions/staff to get it to work though.

 

[1V53]

Not just the TOCs. A lot of the station staff under NR are now on the new contracts where sunday is part of your week whereas any of the old staff that are still around do ont have to work it.

Recompense in a fair format is the only way forward IMO and depending on what your sunday needs you could stipulate that they work any amount of sundays in a 13 week period. that way everyone is treated with teh same amount of sundays off and anyone who takes leave on a sunday can be covered with someone on over time.

It needs a bit of give and take from both the TOCs and teh Unions/staff to get it to work though.

If the company won't put it as part of the working week because they need to pay to recruit staff then it remains as overtime and you can't use leave for it!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I personally don't mind doing Sundays as I usually work 2 a month anyway, BUT that is MY choice if I want to spend time with my kids etc. I can throw it in, to give up the freedom of my Sundays would require quite a good sum of money, I didn't sign up to be FORCED to do Sundays even though I CHOOSE to do them, the nature of the job means we work some of the most unsociable hours in the working place, I will agree to contracted Sundays ONLY when a decent offer is on the table.

 

[Clip]

If the company won't put it as part of the working week because they need to pay to recruit staff then it remains as overtime and you can't use leave for it!

I said if they did put it as that. When i was with NR i took off many sundays a year so i could get back from football the next day. And if they wanted to cover it they would with staff on OT.

 

[1V53]

I personally don't mind doing Sundays as I usually work 2 a month anyway, BUT that is MY choice if I want to spend time with my kids etc. I can throw it in, to give up the freedom of my Sundays would require quite a good sum of money, I didn't sign up to be FORCED to do Sundays even though I CHOOSE to do them, the nature of the job means we work some of the most unsociable hours in the working place, I will agree to contracted Sundays ONLY when a decent offer is on the table.

That's exactly my situation. Some peeps with young kids would go 7 days without seeing them when on lates and working Sundays. Many chuck those in and often the rest of us can pick them up. The problem is when working a high ratio of Suns and a bias to late shifts we are often struggling to cover them all.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

How do you solve a problem like Sundays? Easy. It is impossible and daft to run a seven day service on a six day roster with one day reliant on goodwill. As far as I'm able to ascertain, the railway is the only employer that does this. You roster over seven days with Sunday being part of the working week.
Minus points for the TOC is they need to take on more staff to cover. Minus points for the staff is that they will be expected/obliged/rostered to work Sundays unless they do a swap with someone to suit.
Plus points for the TOC is that the trains are always staffed on Sundays.
Plus point for the staff is a guaranteed higher basic salary with it all counting to-wards the pension as well as a higher bargaining position for a bank loan/mortgage and a higher wage rise as it's awarded on a percentage basis. It can't be consolidated into an artificial pay rise either. As far as the eight bank holidays a year go they simply get added to the leave entitlement.
You may disagree but it's the only way forward.

 

[Ploughman]

When I worked for Jarvis we were rostered for weekend working.
Over a 13 week period we were booked for about 435 hours in the period of which no more than 8 shifts of 10 hours could be on a weekend. (No double shifts rostered by which I mean a shift on Sat and another on Sun)
This meant with a rostered weekend shift you could only work 3 rostered shifts midweek.
If not booked for a weekend shift it varied between 4 and 5 shifts midweek.
The average hours for the week was 35 but ranging between 32 and 40 in actuality.
At the time if the work was available we worked as many other shifts as we wanted within the regulations. But these were classed as overtime.
The manager used to look ahead at the workload and at the busiest times would roster most of the staff and at slack times you got more midweek working.
Weekend shifts were only at slightly enhanced rates as we had a substantial raise to work the system.
It did seem to work well.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As a Guard I understand the importance of Sundays - it is probably the busiest day of the week on our trains. It is pure mayhem. TPE Drivers have Sundays as part of the working week, I believe when they harmonised they got extra remuneration to compensate for this, and additional drivers were recruited to have a full roster, including spares, on a Sunday. They can book leave on a Sunday just like any other day. As far as they are concerned, it is a normal day.

The Guards are different. Sundays are overtime, but they are compulsory. You can make yourself not available, and the Roster dept HAS to make all reasonable endeavours to cover it including cross cover from other depots, overtime, etc. As a result if you don't want to work a Sunday your normally get it covered, but it is not guaranteed. This can be a nuisance. I am going to a family wedding at the other end of the country in a few months, so need the Sunday off. I have made myself not available, but I won't know for sure until a few days before.

Now, I have no problem with working Sundays but I just wish we could book them as leave like any other day. We have 39 Guards at our depot and 15 Sunday diagrams. All you need is one or two folk on the sick, one or two on Weekly Leave where the Sunday is guaranteed off and the off vacancy, and it can sometimes be a struggle to cover them all - and that's before you take into account folk wanting the day off.

 

[tbtc]

You won't get a consensus, because many non railway people look purely at the wage, forget the responsibilty, the antisocial hours (24 hours a day and including Saturday etc and just focus on money. I've spoken to four ATW drivers this morning who ALL said it's not about the money, they want the ability to opt out of a Sunday. They aren't bothered either about having lots of money they just want a bit of meeting half way on the terms and conditions, including a limited ability to opt out of a Sunday occasionally.

The 12% is not what they want. Most dont want more money believe it or not. But as the company are refusing to see the real issue, they are saying 'well if you want to force the issue then give us more money for such restrictive conditions.

Here's two ideas:

1. Allow Sundays to replace Saturday shifts - the same arguments about "leisure time/ family time" apply equally to Saturdays after all

2. Give people with Sunday shifts a better choice of weekday shifts (e.g. if you work Sundays in your contract then you don't get put on the very early/ very late shifts)

Would either of those be enough of a "carrot"?

TBH I'd rather have Saturdays off (more going on on a Saturday), which is why I find it slightly strange that people are so happy to work Saturdays yet reluctant on Sundays

Thanks for the other replies on this thread - I'm encouraged to see some grown up discussion about it (and not the "unions = bad guys" / "management = bad guys" stuff its so easy to descend into)

 

[Greenback]

I want more trains to run on Sundays. I want the staff to be treated fairly as well. So my preference is for a 7 day roster, including a guaranteed number of Sundays and Saturdays off.

But...there could be scope for 'thinking outside the box' on this one, along the line sof tbtc's suggestion. There may be the possibility of offering train crew a choice of their preferred hours -permanent earlies, lates or days?

 

[O L Leigh]

There isn't a lot of flexibility or choice when it comes to rostering, though. The roster has to be written in it's entirety every 6 months prior to the TT change to ensure that all jobs are covered. If drivers have preferences about earlies, lates or when their days off fall it is up to them to arrange the swaps and to notify the roster clerk in good time before that week's roster is published (usually no later than the Wed of the week before).

The roster also has to balance in terms of the booked hours over whatever cycle it is operates on, and unfortunately the job is such that most earlies book on before 7am and most lates from around 2pm.

And then you come to the problem of meeting individual drivers needs because each driver will have a different family situation and may prefer a certain pattern of working that might not suit the next guy. Plus you can't even offer permanent earlies/lates/nights because you won't be able to deliver that to everyone. I wouldn't think that bringing Saturdays into the discussion is helpful either, as we have almost as many Sat jobs as there are on weekdays and many more than there are on Sun.

The fairest system is to permit a certain amount of swapping and leave it up to the drivers to sort it all out amongst themselves. We all know who the people are who like a certain shift or want those jobs that start or finish at a certain location.

O L Leigh

 

[1V53]

There isn't a lot of flexibility or choice when it comes to rostering, though. The roster has to be written in it's entirety every 6 months prior to the TT change to ensure that all jobs are covered. If drivers have preferences about earlies, lates or when their days off fall it is up to them to arrange the swaps and to notify the roster clerk in good time before that week's roster is published (usually no later than the Wed of the week before).

The roster also has to balance in terms of the booked hours over whatever cycle it is operates on, and unfortunately the job is such that most earlies book on before 7am and most lates from around 2pm.

And then you come to the problem of meeting individual drivers needs because each driver will have a different family situation and may prefer a certain pattern of working that might not suit the next guy. Plus you can't even offer permanent earlies/lates/nights because you won't be able to deliver that to everyone. I wouldn't think that bringing Saturdays into the discussion is helpful either, as we have almost as many Sat jobs as there are on weekdays and many more than there are on Sun.

The fairest system is to permit a certain amount of swapping and leave it up to the drivers to sort it all out amongst themselves. We all know who the people are who like a certain shift or want those jobs that start or finish at a certain location.

O L Leigh

Agreed. You can't favour individuals, it has to be a fair balanced roster that everyone works their way through, with the Sundays rostered. The problem is how you cover those rostered Sundays. Working Mon-Sat is a given and expected as part of the job.

 

[O L Leigh]

I personally don't see the problem with covering Sundays the way we do it where I work, as I outlined earlier. Our roster has a ratio of booked Sundays at slightly worse than 1 in 3, but then we have about 100 drivers of whom quite a few like to pick up the extras.

O L Leigh

 

[1V53]

The problem is at smaller depots when you have a handful that don't want to work Sundays so always chuck them in, the pressure is on everyone else to cover them. I guess 30 staff with 10 Sundays and 5 who dont want to work them and 10 on long weekends it is harder than 90 staff with 30 Sundays, 15 who don't want to work them and 30 on long weekend....? Or maybe not. Am just thinking the bigger the number of staff the more likelihood you will have of covering them whereas a smaller depot there is more impact from one or two on sick.

Reading that it makes no mathematical sense so probably it makes no odds how big the depot is, lol.