I don't live in the UK anymore and rely on forums for most of my info on the railways although i do get back once a year or so and try and expereince the network as much as possible. I have a couple of points which I think need to be made. Firstly from the various forums it does seem that fraudulent travel amongst cranks and enthusiasts is widespread and in fact some seem to glory in dodging the fares due. What ever happened to personal responsibility and actually just doing the right thing. This I extend to the general populace also. We don't fly for free and I dont know many who have bolted from a taxi without paying or pushed onto a bus ignoring the driver's please for a fare - why then are the railways any different? What is wrong with just being an honest punter and paying your way - when all is said and done it is theft to travel and not pay. Notwithstanding this I am aamazed at how hit and miss revenue protection is. I would think that any position to do with revenue is self financing and I do not understand why there are not more RPI's and checks at stations. I would certainly incentivise on board staff with commission for tickets sold and maybe even look at buffet/trolley staff being trained up to sell tickets also so that on busier trains they can lend a hand. If we are losing 250 million quid every year on fraud then there is money available for some changes surely?
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How do some train guards get away with not checking/charging for the tickets ?
- Thread starter Justin Smith
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222007
Member
Can i add in LM's case with the 153/170 combination the guard (if its anything like on XC) MUST be in the rear set so there is a compitent person there in case of emergency's
mindfeeder
Member
I travelled from Leamington Spa to Cardiff earlier this month and my ticket was not checked once. Considering I changed a total of 7 times during the journey to Cardiff and back that is pretty shocking.
175001
On Moderation
Same situation with us at Northern, if we have a 153 + 150/1, 142 x2 etc, we ALWAYS stay in the rear set. Trying to explain why to some people, is like talking to a brick wall.
222007
Member
175001 i completely agree. I can only speak for my own patch on XC but the company try to get RPI's where possible to join these double sets so revenue is done on both parts. But i realise the guard gets called all sorts if its a double unit and cant get through as staff yes we know the reason why. Thankfully down my way people realise thyey need to be in the back set to be certain of a ticket
anonymous0101
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I think we should ban posts criticising staff on the way they (allegedly) don't do their jobs on this forum. It brings nothing but anger and resentment and is not productive in anyway.
But before it is banned i'm going to put my 2p in.
Justin Smith, i want CCTV installed at your place of work
and every single time you make a mistake or waste time you'll be required to explain yourself. Meanwhile enjoy your little 'ride round the country picking on guards' trip!
But before it is banned i'm going to put my 2p in.
Justin Smith, i want CCTV installed at your place of work
and every single time you make a mistake or waste time you'll be required to explain yourself. Meanwhile enjoy your little 'ride round the country picking on guards' trip!
Justin, instead of having a rant and getting everyone in a tizzy, why not frame your post in a more constructive way? For example, you could just say that whilst on a rail rover you have noticed that on some routes you rarely see the guard. You could then ask why this is, and would receive useful answers detailing how it's difficult in some circumstances, with details of what those circumstances are.
I don't see how it's being a jobsworth when guards enforce the restrictions on tickets. It may seem daft if a train leaves at 0929 and cheaper fares are valid on or after 0930, but that ticket is not valid. If the TOC wanted cheap tickets on that train, the restriction would be 0916, or 0900. Id oubt those who had bought a more expensive ticket would be happy to see the on train staff turn a blind eye.
It may be petty to be excessed 80p, but it's lucky you weren't liable for a penalty fare, as was the case with the lady on London Midland in Birmingham. She had paid the same fare, and still had to pay £20. If you go to tesco, and discover there's a special offer where washing up liquid is £1.00 per bottle but £1.80 for 2, is it petty to charge the 80p, or should they just give you 2 for £1.00?
90019
Established Member
Whilst I was working (until yesterday), I had to explain myself if any mistake was made, why shouldn't you have to?
anonymous0101
Member
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I never said i shouldn't have to. I just want to make sure the person who goes around checking on guards is also perfect at whatever job they do themselves
90019
Established Member
Fair enough.
CheshirePaul
Member
I travel with Arriva Trains Wales on average 3 - 4 times a week between crewe and nantwich, this is only a 6 min journey. If the servive is a 153 stopping service between crewe and shrewsbury then the the guard all ways comes round selling tickets, but in peak hours when its a 175 on the Manchester to Carfdiff serivce then the guard never comes round. As none of the stations between crewe and shrewsbury have ticket offices then i'm sure there is so much lost revenue on this route at peak morning / evening service.
Yes, although there are different types of revenue inspectors as well. In general the guard is there for the safety of the passengers and train, and can sell and check tickets after this. A revenue inspector doesn't have the same responsibilities as a guard, but checks tickets, issues fines etc. They'll have some training of basic railway safety but not as much as a guard.
37401
Established Member
Can I ask the point in this thread?
Another "let's pick hairs with rail staff thread" next you'll be telling me the guard was jerky...
Another "let's pick hairs with rail staff thread" next you'll be telling me the guard was jerky...
Ivo
Established Member
I'm kinda expecting the next example to be something like this...
Many Sunderland fans join a Northern service at Sunderland (!), heading to Newcastle for the big derby game against Newcastle United. The train is crowded, and the passengers are rowdy, so they are segregated into the rear coach with other passengers in the other(s). The guard then makes his way up, selling tickets to Mackems fans, but cannot see everyone who boarded at Sunderland before they reach Newcastle, and manages to finish the rear vehicle just as they arrive. One of the Sunderland fans feels this is prejudice against his club, and comes on here to shout abuse at the staff for being a Toon fan who deliberately sold tickets to the Sunderland fans first and gave the Newcastle fans a free journey.
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Justin Smith
Established Member
The staff can win, they can do their jobs, but with a bit of common sense and a feel for customer relations. Do they still call it that ? They've probably got some jargon name for it now. A prize to the person coming up with the most ridiculous modern jargon name for "costomer relations".......
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Haha. Justin how are you getting on with 222s?
I haven't been on a 222 yet. Having a combined East Midlands and Heart of England rail rover I feel under preasure to go as far as I can every day, i.e. West and South of Brum. After all there's not a lot of point in spending £170 on a couple of Rail Rovers and only doing trips which cost £10 to £20....
To be frank after only three days of it I've had enough of it, esp going to New Street every day, surely the most horrible satanic station on the network, with the possibly exception of Sunderland.
I've also had enough of Voyagers, even though I try to get the extra legroom seat in the Quiet coach. The only positive about Voyagers are the noisy engines mean you can't hear annoying ipods as much.....
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I always find that if you want to be insulting it's best to make it amusing.
And it isn't a contradictory post.
I don't know how guards get away with not checking/selling tickets.
That's the main thrust of my thread.
I only added the rest as an interesting aside on the huge gulf between people who can't even be bothered to do their jobs, and those at the other extreme who are so picky, and for what ?
Some guards don't even check the tickets, and some fart about charging you an extra 85p on a £14 ticket, when the chances are that if I'd have had the foresight to buy a ticket all the way to Walsden in the first place, instead of just to Todmorden, it'd have cost the same £14 anyway !
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I don't aagree with what you're saying at all.
I'm not saying that all guards don't do their jobs, but it's a fact that many don't. If you're saying that no rail employee should be criticised even when they're not doing their job then I've no time for you. I'm sure you're not saying that so we'll just put it down to a breakdown in communication.....
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What do you mean ?
See above.....
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It was on a trip from New St to Telford, then Telford to Shrewsbury that the tickets didn't get checked at all, and there's plenty of time on that run.
Interestingly, on the way back the guard was up and down the train a few times.
Outbound, male guards, return, a woman.
I'm not saying that's always the case, but it's interesting.....
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Now that is shocking, though to be fair that's worse than ususal.
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I own my own (small) business so it makes no difference. On this point, what's significant is when you're the boss, assuming you're a good boss, you work even harder than when you were an employee so as to set a good example to your staff.
And for the 1000th time, I'm not criticising all guards, just ones who don't do their jobs.
The suggestion that no post on this forum should criticise any rail staff is incredible, it's worthy of the Soviet Union.
Customers complaining is good for a business, it's feedback and good businesses take heed of what their customers are telling them, this short article "Nobody Has ever Complained Before" is an excellent example of that.
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37401
Established Member
Can you answer the question in my post? (post 43) because im still miffed really
anonymous0101
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@justin smith
I didn't think there forum was here so people could publically criticise staff. Surely if you have a complaint you be sending an email to the relevant TOC or using a dedicated forum set up for 'reporting on bad guards' as it were.
You know that Guards don't have to check tickets right? Their primary responsability is the safety of the train and passengers.
As a customer checking up on staff do you think all trains should have a transparent drivers cab door or maybe even a speedometer in each coach so you can check up on the driver and report any speeding?
I didn't think there forum was here so people could publically criticise staff. Surely if you have a complaint you be sending an email to the relevant TOC or using a dedicated forum set up for 'reporting on bad guards' as it were.
You know that Guards don't have to check tickets right? Their primary responsability is the safety of the train and passengers.
As a customer checking up on staff do you think all trains should have a transparent drivers cab door or maybe even a speedometer in each coach so you can check up on the driver and report any speeding?
CarterUSM
Established Member
Justin, I don't necessarilly agree with what you've posted, but what you're obviously looking for is consistency. Due to the operational nature of the role this is more or less an un-achievable expectation.
Justin Smith
Established Member
Simply this, how come some (a minority) of guards don't check the tickets/sell tickets to passengers who obviously haven't got them (because they've got on at unstaffed stations) ? I'm obviously excluding from this trains that are packed full and the guard only has 2 minutes before the next station. That said, I've seen guards at least start trying to check/sell tickets even under these circumstances.
Furthermore, how come it isn't picked up by the depot manager when the errant guards return a ticket machine from which hardly any tickets have been sold ?
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So you don`t think anything should be put on here, even if it`s true, if it`s negative to the railways, particularly if it`s any staff not doing their jobs ?
I`m just reading Albert Speer`s book "Inside The Third Reich", in it (p265) he makes the revealing point that Democracies are inherently more durable (and efficient) than Dictatorships because criticism is allowed. In Dictatorships "no demand could arise so any abuses can be rectified", so they just carry on, and on, and on.
On the subject of complaining, I really would advise spending 2 minutes reading this article, I`m told it`s quite amusing as well......
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How come you don`t agree with what I`ve posted, I`m asking a question ? ! ?
37401
Established Member
Think you can do the job better then?......
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When you were at school did you run to the head teacher when the teacher wasn't doing what you expected? "miss smith didn't teach her full 6hrs today how can she be made to get away with it punish her like the Romans would!!"
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When you were at school did you run to the head teacher when the teacher wasn't doing what you expected? "miss smith didn't teach her full 6hrs today how can she be made to get away with it punish her like the Romans would!!"
jimrbrobinson
Member
Hasn't the original point been answered several times over here? As I understand it, the Conductor's / Guard's job isn't primarily to undertake ticket checks and sales. The safety of the operation of the set is the primary concern. Therefore, when it is feasible, a conductor can / will undertake such revenue protection duties as far as is possible. At such times, therefore, they will find the traveller who has no ticket / incorrect ticket and charge penalty or sell correct ticket as appropriate, whether it be 20p or £20. In my own experience, I agree that revenue protection has appeared to be more than a little lax on some services I have used (hasn't bothered me either way because I've known I've got the correct ticket), which is something that maybe should be better addressed. But at the end of the day the key point here seems to me to be that it is not the Conductor / Guard's primary duty.
CarterUSM
Established Member
T****r for selling you the correct ticket at 0859? I don't particularly care about your query why some guards may or may not do a revenue check on any particular service because there are a multitude of reasons why, from downright laziness to operational instances , but if you are really bothered by what they are, or are not doing, just complain or even praise if the circumstances dictate, to customer services. You are correct in saying criticism isn't a bad thing, as long as it is acted upon positively of course, and neither is healthy debate.
Agree with many of the responses, there's a big difference between asking why certain things on the rail occur and opening a thread by calling people who are just trying to do their job tossers!
So I'll phrase this in an alternative way - where does revenue collection/ticket checking come on the list of priorities for guards? Is it to be done unless circumstances dictate otherwise? Is it a desirable but not necessary task? Or is it entirely discretionary?
So I'll phrase this in an alternative way - where does revenue collection/ticket checking come on the list of priorities for guards? Is it to be done unless circumstances dictate otherwise? Is it a desirable but not necessary task? Or is it entirely discretionary?
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Geezertronic
Established Member
Stop biting, I fell into that trap on a 390 thread with this OP who loves a good argument and is always right
For what it is worth:
- 99.9% of the time I get my ticket checked on BHI-EUS services
- either get my ticket checked on the gate or on the train on the return EUS-BHI
- Never had my ticket checked on STP-SAC services (and return)
- I've had my ticket checked on the DLR a few times
- I've had ticket checks done on BHI-BHM LM services (but not VT services)
And also for what it is worth, Miss Smith was a cow
37401
Established Member
anonymous0101
Member
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- 16 Jan 2010
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- 192
Hi Cuccir,
I'm not a guard myself but i think i'm right in saying its safety first, then tickets after.
I'm not a guard myself but i think i'm right in saying its safety first, then tickets after.
Justin Smith
Established Member
Not sure what point you're making here.
In any business I've ever been involved with if customers got the product for free the employee responsible would be in very deep trouble.
One is often surprised at the response one gets on forums but I have to say the response to this thread is possibly the most surprising I can remember.
There are railway employees who aren't collecting revenue.
Half the respondents to this are either making excuses (some, only some, are valid) for the errant guards, whilst the other half are opining that we should shoot the messenger.
Unbelievable.
Is it any wonder that the railways cost so much to run ?
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I agree, it's vital for safety that the guard sits in his cab, at the opposite end from where the train is actually being driven, as opposed to selling tickets to passengers. Just like it`s vital to have drivers and co-drivers on diesel engines because they used to need firemen on..... (sorry, wrong era).
Question.
How came on the journey I made from New St to Telford to Shrewsbury, the tickets didn't get checked on either leg going outbound, but twice coming back ?
Is the rail route that much safer coming back so the guard isn't required to stay in their cab ?
Anyway, does anyone actually know how guards manage to get away with returning their ticket machines at the end of the shift with hardly any tickets actually sold ?
Maybe that's why they closed so many lines, the managers didn't think there were any passengers on the trains......
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And also for what it is worth, Miss Smith was a cow
Who is Miss Smith ?
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ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Have you considered that the route is different in the other directions? Shorter platforms, more need for the guard to operate SDO controls from a cab?
Because any sensible manager knows that safety comes first and revenue second. Guards aren't even the primary revenue collectors.
All you seem to do is pop up from time to time and make belligerent claims.
BrummyBoy
Member
is it just me or is this thread pointless
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