How did XC happen?

[ChiefPlanner]

You make it sound like XC got the gristly bits of meat rather than the lean bits.

IN a job I did around 1999 - I went through the various (redacted as to who they were) bids for the XC franchise , and was quite surprised how relatively uneconomic the "franchise" was , - Virgin certainly made a very brave bid which ended up as "Operation Princess" in an operation which though much loved by enthusiasts (think 47/8's and shortish 125 sets) was quite a challenge to run.

Always hugely impressed by their train planning team - especially with the maelstorm of weekend engineering works they had to deal with.

 

[snowball]

As far as I can recall there was a group of services in the 1970s generally known as "North-East - South-West". This was not an entirely accurate name as some were NW - SW or NW - South Central. The common factor was that they went via Birmingham New Street.

XC is descended from them.

 

[Buttsy]

The Aberdeen to Penzance train as it is today came in around 2002, originally there was two lines that ran along to Penzance/Plymouth one of which was VT1 and ran from the South West to Scotland via Manchester and terminated at Aberdeen. Then there was VT4 which ran via Derby and Newcastle but that terminated at Dundee.

Re-reading old Modern Railways from the mid 80s, they do refer to an Elgin - Penzance train and a Penzance - Dundee service. The starting point of Elgin was to provide an early morning service into Aberdeen and the coaching stock available for such a run was NE-SW stock that was to work out of Aberdeen. BR used that stock for the commuter service from Elgin as it was timetabled to arrive shortly before the departure of the Penzance service. Not something you'd see these days much, one TOC running a service on behalf of another.

I have the 1975-1976 GBTT and table 51 is mainly concerned with the Plymouth/Bristol/Gloucester Eastgate - Birmingham - Derby/Sheffield/Leeds/York axis. There are 2 trains from Poole shown, to Newcastle & Liverpool and one from Southampton to Liverpool.

The interesting thing about the routing from Sheffield is that both the Leeds and York services went through Normanton (the Cudworth route), Leeds services going through Altofts and the York ones through Castleford. This lasted in the mid 80s (around 1984 timetable) when the routes changed to the ones used today.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Th
One of them was a "Newcastle" train routed via the GC to Sheffield (originated at Southampton, or was it Cardiff via Kingham?).
That was diverted via Birmingham when the GC was closed.

.

Newcastle to Bournemouth. GWR locos removed at Leicester Central.

 

[ac6000cw]

As I said, I remember London Paddington to Birmingham services being the mainstay, and then Poole to Manchester (possibly Liverpool?). Someone must have decided that running trains to Poole was a good idea, and that stopping trains to London Paddington was a sacrifice worth making? And were Poole services new? Or were there London Paddington/Reading to Poole services before then?

The trains ran to Poole (instead of terminating at Bournemouth) mainly for loco run-around and servicing in the sidings to the west of Poole station. There had long been (some) trains to Bournemouth from the 'North' via Bristol, Bath and the Somerset & Dorset route (look up the 'Pines Express'), plus some via the Great Central, Banbury and Reading (maybe via the Reading west avoiding curve). Eventually BR rationalised those workings into the 'via Birmingham and Reading' pattern we have today.

Other random services seemed to have stopped (standardised I guess). If I remember correctly, one the London Paddington to Birmingham services went via High Wycombe. And there was a London Paddington to Banbury service that arrived around 19.00 - commuter service I assume. Always liked it because it was normally Class 50 hauled. And there must be many others across the network.

Yes, the 'via High Wycombe' train was the last remnant of the (old) GWR Paddington - Birmingham Snow Hill '2 Hour' express services.

I think the basic idea of the 1970s service pattern via Banbury was to interleave the Paddington and Poole trains, so that there was a roughly hourly service between Birmingham and Reading, serving the major stations between. At Reading you could then change for a service to Paddington, or a service to Basingstoke (then change again to get to Southampton & Bournemouth) if you were travelling at the 'wrong' hour for where you needed to get to.

 

[route:oxford]

Re-reading old Modern Railways from the mid 80s, they do refer to an Elgin - Penzance train and a Penzance - Dundee service. The starting point of Elgin was to provide an early morning service into Aberdeen and the coaching stock available for such a run was NE-SW stock that was to work out of Aberdeen. BR used that stock for the commuter service from Elgin as it was timetabled to arrive shortly before the departure of the Penzance service. Not something you'd see these days much, one TOC running a service on behalf of another.

Which is a real shame.

Every mornning there is a 05:26 service from Stiring to London. I know a handful of people who appreciate it, but even so would prefer something a bit later than 05:26 and a bit earlier than 10:32

With the introduction of the IEP units, there could be an opportunity to run a "joint-operator" service from Perth to London in the path of the 06:39 from Perth and the 08:30 from Edinburgh.

A 9 or 10 car IEP unit would offer masses of commuter accommodation on a key route as well as a direct service to London.

(In the olden days, I'm sure there was a service to London from Stirling at around 07:30 that was very popular with commuters - anyone got an 1980s timetable to check?)

Going back to the OP though... Surely "Cross-Country" services would have been fairly intensive during the world wars?

 

[Buttsy]

Which is a real shame.

Every mornning there is a 05:26 service from Stiring to London. I know a handful of people who appreciate it, but even so would prefer something a bit later than 05:26 and a bit earlier than 10:32

With the introduction of the IEP units, there could be an opportunity to run a "joint-operator" service from Perth to London in the path of the 06:39 from Perth and the 08:30 from Edinburgh.

A 9 or 10 car IEP unit would offer masses of commuter accommodation on a key route as well as a direct service to London.

(In the olden days, I'm sure there was a service to London from Stirling at around 07:30 that was very popular with commuters - anyone got an 1980s timetable to check?)

Going back to the OP though... Surely "Cross-Country" services would have been fairly intensive during the world wars?

83-84 GBTT shows a Perth - King's Cross service via Stirling departing Perth at 075:15

 

[ac6000cw]

I have the 1975-1976 GBTT and table 51 is mainly concerned with the Plymouth/Bristol/Gloucester Eastgate - Birmingham - Derby/Sheffield/Leeds/York axis. There are 2 trains from Poole shown, to Newcastle & Liverpool and one from Southampton to Liverpool.

The interesting thing about the routing from Sheffield is that both the Leeds and York services went through Normanton (the Cudworth route), Leeds services going through Altofts and the York ones through Castleford. This lasted in the mid 80s (around 1984 timetable) when the routes changed to the ones used today.

They reverted to the Cudworth route (the original Midland Railway Rotherham - Leeds line) due to mining subsidence on the Swinton & Knottingley Joint line, which had been the established route of those trains for years. I can still remember the glow and the smell from the coke ovens near Grimethorpe as the 'Peak' blasted past with 9-10 Mk1s in tow, me with head (carefully) out of the window of course

 

[basfordlad]

Someone said there was hardly ever class 47s on the east side,
I remember one was always on a service that left chesterfield around 8am,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also remember that on Virgin cross country there was a service that left Birmingham around lunch time and went up to Glasgow I think, it was a HST and you could sit in the first class section of the buffet car, with an almost dinning car set up and they did proper food on plates etc, remember having their full English!
Seemed very good at the time

 

[Failed Unit]

Someone said there was hardly ever class 47s on the east side,
I remember one was always on a service that left chesterfield around 8am,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also remember that on Virgin cross country there was a service that left Birmingham around lunch time and went up to Glasgow I think, it was a HST and you could sit in the first class section of the buffet car, with an almost dinning car set up and they did proper food on plates etc, remember having their full English!
Seemed very good at the time

Yeah. They tried to keep the 47s off the fast bit of the ECML for pathing but still went to Leeds / York.

I do recall one going to Newcastle it used to use both bridges to avoid swapping the loco. In over high level out of king Edward or vice Versa.

 

[jopsuk]

Wasn't the Great Eastern mainline IC as well?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Going back to the OP though... Surely "Cross-Country" services would have been fairly intensive during the world wars?

The classic routes were Leeds/York-Bristol and beyond (Midland and partners), and Manchester/Liverpool-Bristol/Cardiff and beyond via Hereford (LNW/GW).
Liverpool/Manchester-Harwich of course (GC/GE via Woodhead).
Liverpool-Newcastle (LNW/NER).
There were never frequent or even regular services from north of London to the south/southeast coast.
A few Summer services ran via the West London line ("The Sunny South Express" etc).
Some straggling east-west services (Birmingham-Norwich, M&GN etc).

Many through lines were rural single track affairs (S&D, DN&S, Mid&SWJ etc) and never had high capacity.
The big boys largely kept each other out, of course.

 

[Failed Unit]

Wasn't the Great Eastern mainline IC as well?

Yes it was. I forgot. "inter-city shuttle" no less.

Slight tangent but was Liverpool Street the main route to Cambridge as well in the 1980s with fast trains, when did kings cross take over as the primary station? When stansted express started to free up paths.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd assume with ECML electrification so late 80s is when Kings Cross took over the mantle of primary London station for Cambridge.

 

[basfordlad]

Yeah. They tried to keep the 47s off the fast bit of the ECML for pathing but still went to Leeds / York.

I do recall one going to Newcastle it used to use both bridges to avoid swapping the loco. In over high level out of king Edward or vice Versa.

Yes that's right the 8am was from York I think via leeds

 

[43096]

Virgin certainly made a very brave bid which ended up as "Operation Princess" in an operation which though much loved by enthusiasts (think 47/8's and shortish 125 sets) was quite a challenge to run.

For "brave" read "monumentally stupid".

A franchise bid that required a huge amount of growth to make it work financially had a huge increase in staff costs (frequency doubled so almost twice as many crew needed) and a new train fleet that had, at best, the same capacity as the existing fleet. In effect the bid was a giant ORCATS raid on other franchises with no clue as to where the extra punters would actually sit.

 

[backontrack]

Hi, don't know if this has been covered elsewhere, but how did the cross-country services happen?

A mummy service and a daddy service loved each other so vewwy vewwy much, they got together and they made a baby service!

Interested to hear of cross-country services via the Welsh Marches. The old London-Birkenhead Woodside service ran via Shrewsbury and Wrexham, as did the more recent Wrexham & Shropshire venture, and I wonder if Birkenhead itself received cross-country intercity connections.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For "brave" read "monumentally stupid".

A franchise bid that required a huge amount of growth to make it work financially had a huge increase in staff costs (frequency doubled so almost twice as many crew needed) and a new train fleet that had, at best, the same capacity as the existing fleet. In effect the bid was a giant ORCATS raid on other franchises with no clue as to where the extra punters would actually sit.

Birmingham to Swindon and Stroud using 158s? You've got to be joking! They had terrible rolling stock overall...

 

[PHILIPE]

A mummy service and a daddy service loved each other so vewwy vewwy much, they got together and they made a baby service!

Interested to hear of CrossCountry services via the Welsh Marches. The old London-Birkenhead Woodside service ran via Shrewsbury and Wrexham, as did the more recent Wrexham & Shropshire venture, and I wonder if Birkenhead itself received cross-country intercity connections.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Birmingham to Swindon and Stroud using 158s? You've got to be joking! They had terrible rolling stock overall...

The Birkenhead services via Shrewsbury finished in 1967 and those from the North West to West of England via the Marches finished in 1970 which were long before the title Cross Country was ever thought of.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.... I recall it was after New St was rebuilt in 1967. At the start of electrification there was an hourly service from Euston via Birmingham alternating to Liverpool and Manchester. This was cut back possibly only a year or two later to Wolverhampton, when a new cross country network was created with the paths between Birmingham and Manchester/Liverpool used for services to and from Bristol, Cardiff, Plymouth and Poole offering cross platform connections at New Street with trains from Newcastle and Leeds. ....

Yes. I don't know when it started, but this is what I remember in 1975 - it was a neat cross-platform interchange for some or most hours of the day.

 

[randyrippley]

In the 1970's what we now know as "Cross Country" was simply known as the "Northeast-Southwest route" and consisted of trains from Leeds/Newcastle to the Southwest and South Coast via Birmingham.
The Cross-Country tag really first appeared in the 1970's when a name was required to popularise/advertise the route when new HSTs replaced the previous Peak and class-47 hauled Mk1/2 non-airconditioned sets. New trains, new name. At the same time some hauled sets were diverted to Scotland via the WCML, requiring change to/from electric haulage at Birmingham

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A lot of posts yet a lot of misinformation. I suspect that some posters are relying on recalled misperceptions though one or two are spot on. The number of inaccuracies that I have noticed is just too many to deal with in a single post! Suffice it to say that what we have now is a beefed up version of what has existed for a long time. Also that in steam days many long-distance services were operated on a once-a-day basis as opposed to the regular all-day timetables which we have now. I would add that away from fully electrified routes the concept of regular interval timetables is a relatively recent innovation.

As some have mentioned there have been various occasions when the cross-country network underwent an obvious change, mostly for the better. Some of these include electrification of the WCML (S of Weaver Jn) combined with the rebuild of New Street station, the later completion of electrification of the WCML (N of Weaver Jn) which finally allowed regular Anglo-Scottish services to be added to the network, various phases of the roll-out of HST operation across the wider national network which allowed acceleration of some services while also cascading decent quality rolling stock onto cross-country services, the sectorisation of BR which eventually led to the idea of creating as many through-train journey opportunities as possible, the comparative run-down of rolling stock in early VXC days, the hopelessly ambitious Operation Princess (and its subsequent fall-out) and the re-mapping of franchises when Arriva took over. This list is by no means exhaustive but should give an idea as to the way that the cross-country network has evolved through many phases over the years.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For "brave" read "monumentally stupid".

A franchise bid that required a huge amount of growth to make it work financially had a huge increase in staff costs (frequency doubled so almost twice as many crew needed) and a new train fleet that had, at best, the same capacity as the existing fleet. In effect the bid was a giant ORCATS raid on other franchises with no clue as to where the extra punters would actually sit.

I was being polite.

 

[Failed Unit]

Did the Brighton - Scotland service used to go via WCML in the 80s.

ie Kensington Olympia - Watford and was diverted via reading in the 90s? Or was this a one off engineering works trip I recall?

 

[D1009]

Did the Brighton - Scotland service used to go via WCML in the 80s.

ie Kensington Olympia - Watford and was diverted via reading in the 90s? Or was this a one off engineering works trip I recall?

I don't recall a Brighton to Scotland service in the 1980s, but there was certainly a Brighton to Manchester service, 3 trains a day each way including one overnight via Kensington Olympia and Reading. Occasionally they were diverted direct via the WCML because of engineering work.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes it was. I forgot. "inter-city shuttle" no less.

Slight tangent but was Liverpool Street the main route to Cambridge as well in the 1980s with fast trains, when did kings cross take over as the primary station? When stansted express started to free up paths.

Effectively when the Royston - Cambridge electrification was completed - 100mph 317s on a fast route easily beat an 86+Mk2s on a twisty, slow route to Liverpool Street. In between the 1970s Kings Cross suburban electrification (to Royston) and then, there was just a DMU shuttle between Royston and Cambridge connecting to the EMUs, which had replaced direct loco-hauled trains on the route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interested to hear of cross-country services via the Welsh Marches. The old London-Birkenhead Woodside service ran via Shrewsbury and Wrexham, as did the more recent Wrexham & Shropshire venture, and I wonder if Birkenhead itself received cross-country intercity connections.

My 1958 LMR timetable shows a daily Birkenhead-Bournemouth via Oxford and Reading West - complete with restaurant car throughout.
It took over 8 hours.
Also carried through carriages to Cardiff (via Shrewsbury presumably).

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't recall a Brighton to Scotland service in the 1980s, but there was certainly a Brighton to Manchester service, 3 trains a day each way including one overnight via Kensington Olympia and Reading. Occasionally they were diverted direct via the WCML because of engineering work.

Probably the same one. I got off at New Street and it was hazy to where it was going.

 

[backontrack]

My 1958 LMR timetable shows a daily Birkenhead-Bournemouth via Oxford and Reading West - complete with restaurant car throughout.
It took over 8 hours.
Also carried through carriages to Cardiff (via Shrewsbury presumably).

Wow, thanks! Via, Crewe, Birmingham...?

 

[43096]

I was being polite.

I did wonder!

I wasn't though!

 

[thenorthern]

There were quite a few new things in the 1980s such as Cross Country services running through Coventry for the first time and utilising the line through Kenilworth.