How did XC happen?

[BanburyBlue]

Hi, don't know if this has been covered elsewhere, but how did the cross-country services happen?

When I was a kid (1970's), and we used to go trainspotting at Banbury Station, express services consisted of London Paddington to Birmingham New Street trains, generally one in each direction per hour. If I remember correctly, there was one 'Newcastle' train. Can't remember the destination, just being the 'Newcastle' train - Excitement City Arizona as there was a chance it would be hauled by an Eastern Brush.

I seem to remember later, that South Coast to Manchester/Liverpool trains started, which I think started replacing the Paddington - Birmingham trains?

And during the summer holidays, we used to get a one week West Midlands travel rover, and I seem to remember Derby to Liverpool/Manchester trains (hauled by Peaks).

Was it so simple that they just stuck all these services together to form the XC franchise?

 

[JamesT]

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that pre-privatisation BR was essentially split in 3, InterCity, Regional Railways, Network SouthEast.
These were then further subdivided into 25 'shadow' franchises before privatisation. So for InterCity you have East Coast and Great Western etc.
To some extent, CrossCountry is the bits of InterCity left over once you've hived off the nice self-contained franchises.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Hi, don't know if this has been covered elsewhere, but how did the cross-country services happen?

When I was a kid (1970's), and we used to go trainspotting at Banbury Station, express services consisted of London Paddington to Birmingham New Street trains, generally one in each direction per hour. If I remember correctly, there was one 'Newcastle' train. Can't remember the destination, just being the 'Newcastle' train - Excitement City Arizona as there was a chance it would be hauled by an Eastern Brush.

I seem to remember later, that South Coast to Manchester/Liverpool trains started, which I think started replacing the Paddington - Birmingham trains?

And during the summer holidays, we used to get a one week West Midlands travel rover, and I seem to remember Derby to Liverpool/Manchester trains (hauled by Peaks).

Was it so simple that they just stuck all these services together to form the XC franchise?

Can you specify a year for this?

 

[Deepgreen]

To quote from the film "Airplane" - "well, first the earth cooled..."

 

[swt_passenger]

Cross Country as we know it now was basically the subset of Intercity that firstly didn't go to London, and secondly did go through Birmingham.

Those later bits that were added, which some people refer to as "cross country lite", i.e. those routes transferred from Central trains, are a different thing entirely...

My recollection of the seventies was a reasonable hourly service on the core NE/SW axis of what became the cross country franchise, I remember Newcastle to Bristol being possible most hours but Plymouth only a couple of times a day? However I don't remember the name "Cross Country" coming into common use, but I think it might have been used before privatisation for some routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

InterCity certainly used it just before privatisation - the sales pitch was "X may change, but he/she/they won't change trains", with various values of X.

There was also an XC-lite in those days - it was the Liverpool and Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh Class 158 operation running a couple of times per day.

 

[Clip]

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that pre-privatisation BR was essentially split in 3, InterCity, Regional Railways, Network SouthEast.
These were then further subdivided into 25 'shadow' franchises before privatisation. So for InterCity you have East Coast and Great Western etc.
To some extent, CrossCountry is the bits of InterCity left over once you've hived off the nice self-contained franchises.

So when I was a kid in the 80s I didnt get a cross country service then from Newcastle to Dawlish, the same as it is today?

 

[BanburyBlue]

Can you specify a year for this?

No not really.

It was the Aberdeen to Penzance thread that got me thinking - how did we get to where we are today.

 

[thenorthern]

Pre-British Rail I think there were through coaches from Newcastle to Bristol but I think it was in the 1950s that they noticed all the main lines went from London to a destination which was great if you wanted to get to London but not if you wanted to get anywhere else.

Slowly though a new network was created that instead of involving London used Birmingham as its main place and connected several major cities that had no direct links before.

The name Cross Country came in the 1980s and under Virgin Cross Country the network changed from being a service that ran to multiple destinations a limited number of times per day to fixed routes such as Plymouth to Edinburgh, Manchester to Bristol and Newcastle to Reading with a few extensions.

 

[KTHV]

In June 2006 the Department for Transport announced its intention to restructure a number of franchises. Included was a New Cross Country franchise that would incorporate the existing InterCity Cross Country franchise run by Virgin CrossCountry, less the West Coast Main Line services with the Birmingham to Scotland services transferring to Virgin West Coast and the Manchester to Scotland services transferring to First TransPennine Express. Some services from the Central Trains franchise were to be added.

In October 2006 the Department for Transport issued the Invitation to Tender to the shortlisted bidders, Arriva, First, National Express and Virgin Rail Group. On 10 July 2007 the Department for Transport announced that Arriva had won the New Cross Country franchise with the services operated by Virgin CrossCountry transferring to CrossCountry on 11 November 2007 along with the Cardiff to Nottingham and Birmingham to Stansted Airport services from Central Trains.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Prior to the XC shadow franchise (TOU), an INTERCITY profit centre was Midland Mainline Cross Country. I think (but not 100% sure) it was based out of Derby.

 

[swt_passenger]

In June 2006 the Department for Transport announced its intention to restructure a number of franchises.

I think the thread's original purpose is to ask about the pre-privatisation situation, your quote explains what is a comparatively well known change...

 

[DarloRich]

Do you mean how did the TOC Cross Country happen or how did cross country services develop into the network, centered on Birmingham, that we have today? Until then I will leave you with this

Hi, don't know if this has been covered elsewhere, but how did the cross-country services happen?

One day a mummy TOC and a daddy TOC, who loved each other very much, deiced to make a baby TOC..............................

 

[ac6000cw]

Hi, don't know if this has been covered elsewhere, but how did the cross-country services happen?

When I was a kid (1970's), and we used to go trainspotting at Banbury Station, express services consisted of London Paddington to Birmingham New Street trains, generally one in each direction per hour. If I remember correctly, there was one 'Newcastle' train. Can't remember the destination, just being the 'Newcastle' train - Excitement City Arizona as there was a chance it would be hauled by an Eastern Brush.

I seem to remember later, that South Coast to Manchester/Liverpool trains started, which I think started replacing the Paddington - Birmingham trains?

And during the summer holidays, we used to get a one week West Midlands travel rover, and I seem to remember Derby to Liverpool/Manchester trains (hauled by Peaks).

Was it so simple that they just stuck all these services together to form the XC franchise?

In the early 1970s, the services that later became 'Cross Country' were usually known as 'Northeast - Southwest' trains (which also included the Northwest-Southwest and Northeast/west-South coast workings). They were effectively carry-overs from the old inter-company and later inter-(BR)region services, re-routed via Birmingham to allow for interchange there.

It wasn't until BR published the first 'national' (rather than separate regional) passenger timetable book (in 1974?) that they all appeared in one timetable - 'Table 51' was created especially for that purpose.

With BR sectorisation, the various IC service groups started to become cost centres within the sector, with their own allocated resources and their own 'brand identities' - Cross-Country was an obvious group name for the 'Table 51' trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

The formation was before my time, but I remember HST getting introduced and the heart advertising campaign. 1980s

From the east side it was generally Sheffield - Bristol hourly with services starting back from Leeds or Newcastle via Doncaster. A couple started back at Edinburgh and some avoided Doncaster.

The West side was Manchester / Liverpool/ Scotland - Poole. Again Scotland- Manchester- Poole happen. Sometimes at Birmingham the East / West swapped so you had Edinburgh - Poole via Newcastle and Aberdeen - Penzance via Manchester (if I recall)

Speaking to people these services had ran since steam days but intercity wanted to increase frequency. East side rarely saw class 47s and were normally HST. West side were generally coaches with traction changes. It was inter-city cross country as long as I can remember.

If I recall pre-privatisation we had.

Intercity - East Coast Mainline, West Coast Mainline, Midland Mainline, Cross Country and sleeper. (Can't remember what the Great Western was called)

As other posters have said, not many services went onward to Plymouth.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One day a mummy TOC and a daddy TOC, who loved each other very much, deiced to make a baby TOC..............................

Although they didn't really want this baby TOC, and didn't want to give it any of the nice new toys, so they tried to palm it off on Great Aunty Midland, but she didn't want it either.

It was long before I was born and moved to the UK, but here goes...

The "network" through the 70s was just a hotch-potch of random routes that didn't really fit into any other sector, together with the Holidaymaker services from the north east and north west through to the south west and south coast. With sectorisation CrossCountry became its own sector, although it was bottom of the pile for coaching stock, lumped in with the Midland Mainline services.

It was really only the early 90s when it started to settle down into a coherent network, based on Birmingham and the axes to Manchester, Leeds and Bristol, but with plenty of random offshoots such as Brighton, Poole and London Paddington.

Virgin took over with privatisation, with much the same network, using a small fleet of HSTs and a much bigger fleet of clapped out 47s and 86s towing MkII coaches. The timetable wasn't entirely coherent, but there was some attempt at a clockface timetable on the core to Manchester, Leeds and Bristol to Birmingham.

Operation Princess brought us the Voyagers and a clockface timetable, but Operation Princess was just a lot too over-optimistic, with punctuality dropping to about 55%. So Virgin were allowed to tear it up, getting rid of all the random destinations, and settling on the core service we know now.

In time the service from Birmingham to Scotland was split out from the service through Manchester, because of more punctuality concerns, with Birmingham-WCML-Scotland and Manchester-Scotland moving to West Coast, before Manchester-Scotland moved again to TPE.

The last bit of the puzzle was the break up of Central Trains, which meant the trains to Cardiff and Cambridge from Birmingham also ended up with XC, even if XC are using the same Class 170 trains that were always used.

 

[daikilo]

One day a mummy TOC and a daddy TOC, who loved each other very much, deiced to make a baby TOC..............................

Really?

I don't have proof, but I think the start of the exercise was the rerouting of Liverpool and Manchester to Cardiff and Bristol via Birmingham instead of the Marches. I suspect it was roughly when New Street was rebuilt in the 1960s. Indeed, its roots can probably be found in Beeching theories and, at the time, it was anything but a "baby TOC". It was indeed the only real hub as London wasn't (and still isn't) united as one for longer-distance travel.

 

[bradford758]

I vaguely remember traveling to Birmingham/Solihull about 1980. Leeds to New Street trains were around every 2 hours, hourly from Sheffield. The New Street to Reading etc services mainly called at Solihull.


Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[talltim]

The equivalent of cross country network was certainly present in pre-nationalisation days, with trains and individual coaches passed from company to company to company.

 

[Ron Hale]

As a child in the very late 50's before the family had a car our Journey from Middlesbrough to Cirencester included travelling behind a steam engine from Darlington to Cheltenham without a change. I also recall we travelled through Pontefract (which I thought was an odd name) and Chesterfield where dad would point out the crooked spire.
As an aside I can remember the excitement when the local Middlesbrough >> Darlington steam engine was replaced by a diesel!

 

[D1009]

As other posters have said, not many services went onward to Plymouth.

Except on Summer Saturdays, when there were probably more than there are today!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't have proof, but I think the start of the exercise was the rerouting of Liverpool and Manchester to Cardiff and Bristol via Birmingham instead of the Marches. I suspect it was roughly when New Street was rebuilt in the 1960s. Indeed, its roots can probably be found in Beeching theories and, at the time, it was anything but a "baby TOC". It was indeed the only real hub as London wasn't (and still isn't) united as one for longer-distance travel.

I recall it was after New St was rebuilt in 1967. At the start of electrification there was an hourly service from Euston via Birmingham alternating to Liverpool and Manchester. This was cut back possibly only a year or two later to Wolverhampton, when a new cross country network was created with the paths between Birmingham and Manchester/Liverpool used for services to and from Bristol, Cardiff, Plymouth and Poole offering cross platform connections at New Street with trains from Newcastle and Leeds. Up until this point the few trains there were from Liverpool and Manchester to and from Bristol, Cardiff and the West of England ran via Hereford and Newport. These were replaced by a DMU service from Crewe to Cardiff, which subsequently became loco hauled after complaints of overcrowding and discomfort.

 

[bradford758]

Between York and Sheffield, the direct ie not via Leeds, trains ran non-stop via Pontefract Baghill, until the opening of the Selby diversion meant trains could call at Doncaster without losing time

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[ainsworth74]

As an aside I can remember the excitement when the local Middlesbrough >> Darlington steam engine was replaced by a diesel!

Interesting, I would have thought that would be the sort of line that would have gone straight to DMU?

 

[BanburyBlue]

I think the thread's original purpose is to ask about the pre-privatisation situation, your quote explains what is a comparatively well known change...

Many thanks for all the replies.

Yes, I was wondering how all the various disparate services somehow magically became Cross Country.

As I said, I remember London Paddington to Birmingham services being the mainstay, and then Poole to Manchester (possibly Liverpool?). Someone must have decided that running trains to Poole was a good idea, and that stopping trains to London Paddington was a sacrifice worth making? And were Poole services new? Or were there London Paddington/Reading to Poole services before then?

At that time from Banbury, the London Paddington trains were by far the best way to get to London. The alternative was London Marylebone, which before the days of 165 Turbo's and the track/signalling investment, was a very torturous route indeed.

And coming from the north, I do remember Manchester/Liverpool to London Paddington (may have been Poole?) in the late 70's. Used to come down as electric with an engine change at New Street.

Other random services seemed to have stopped (standardised I guess). If I remember correctly, one the London Paddington to Birmingham services went via High Wycombe. And there was a London Paddington to Banbury service that arrived around 19.00 - commuter service I assume. Always liked it because it was normally Class 50 hauled. And there must be many others across the network.

 

[thenorthern]

The Aberdeen to Penzance train as it is today came in around 2002, originally there was two lines that ran along to Penzance/Plymouth one of which was VT1 and ran from the South West to Scotland via Manchester and terminated at Aberdeen. Then there was VT4 which ran via Derby and Newcastle but that terminated at Dundee.

Its important to note that until Operation princess Dundee effectively had a two hourly Virgin Cross Country service and Aberdeen had quite a few train per day.

I think another big drop in the services to Aberdeen came in 2011 when East Coast stopped the two hourly service extension from Edinburgh to Glasgow and as a response CrossCountry extended some of their services from Edinburgh to Glasgow meaning there wasn't enough trains have both the regular Aberdeen and Glasgow extensions. This has left the token service from the south to Aberdeen as well as 2 trains per day that terminate at Dundee.

 

[Harbornite]

Some early cross-country services included the Pines Express from Bournemouth to Manchester and the Devonian, but this was in the 1950s when the network was still divided by regions and inter regional trains weren't as frequent. As mentioned before, it was only in the 80s with the formation of the Intercity sector that Crosscountry services started to become more frequent. Nowadays, the core XC network has more services but less destinations than before Operation princess in 2002.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Prior to the XC shadow franchise (TOU), an INTERCITY profit centre was Midland Mainline Cross Country. I think (but not 100% sure) it was based out of Derby.

I was indeed - then split off and rehoused in Birmingham. Oddly - Gatwick Express and Anglia were also twinned together under combined management in London.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Banbury leg of XC came about very late.
The GWR had very few links beyond the Paddington-Banbury-Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Chester main line.
One of them was a "Newcastle" train routed via the GC to Sheffield (originated at Southampton, or was it Cardiff via Kingham?).
That was diverted via Birmingham when the GC was closed.
Another "accident" was the diversion of the Pines Express (Manchester-Bournemouth) when the Somerset & Dorset closed from Bath/Bristol.
Between Bournemouth and Birmingham it ran via Basingstoke and Oxford to Snow Hill (calling at Reading West and avoiding Reading Gen).
Initially it even went on via Market Drayton to Crewe, and then via Shrewsbury when Wellington-Nantwich closed.
Then finally, when New St was electrified, it ran into New St and on to Crewe as now.
Before that, there were no through services from Banbury to the north west (except to Chester/Birkenhead).
Lots of changing between stations required in Birmingham or Wolverhampton.

Banbury-Oxford-Reading was a very poor service until the High Wycombe route was down-graded and the Birmingham-Paddington was diverted around 1967.

 

[Master29]

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that pre-privatisation BR was essentially split in 3, InterCity, Regional Railways, Network SouthEast.
These were then further subdivided into 25 'shadow' franchises before privatisation. So for InterCity you have East Coast and Great Western etc.
To some extent, CrossCountry is the bits of InterCity left over once you've hived off the nice self-contained franchises.

You make it sound like XC got the gristly bits of meat rather than the lean bits.

 

[thejuggler]

Late 80s I was a regular user of a Sheffield to Gloucester direct service. It then continued to the south west.