How did Newark get to be so lucky?

[Harlesden]

Population of just 26,000 yet it is a stop on the ECML whereas nearby Lincoln with a population of 85,500 has been relegated to nothing more than a local station served by EMT.
How different things might have been if what became the ECML had served Peterborough-Spalding-Sleaford-Lincoln-Gainsborough-Doncaster.
Local services running up and down Peterborough-Grantham-Newark-Retford with connections at Grantham to Skegness via Sleaford.
Regular services Grimsby Town-Retford-Mansfield-Nottingham with alternate trains Mansfield-Alfreton-Chesterfield-Sheffield.
The existing Doncaster-Grimsby/Cleethorpes service could be abandoned with passengers changing at Lincoln to/from the existing Newark-Grimsby service.
The Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Grimsby service replaced by a Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Hull service.
What do the professionals think of my meanderings?

 

[trainfanatic]

Didn't some local (to Stamford) landowner object to the proposal for a railway linking Stamford to the (what is now) the ECML?

What might have been if there no objections....

 

[Zoe]

What might have been if there no objections....

In the same way if the people of Maidstone hadn't objected it may well today be on the main Charing Cross to Dover Line.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The existing Doncaster-Grimsby/Cleethorpes service could be abandoned with passengers changing at Lincoln to/from the existing Newark-Grimsby service.
The Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Grimsby service replaced by a Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Hull service.
What do the professionals think of my meanderings?

So Scunthorpe, a town of 73,000, loses all trains eastwards, and is served by only a stopper to Doncaster? Further, it would massively extend journey times between Manchester / Sheffield and North Lincolnshire...

 

[Yew]

Effectively, newark works as Lincoln parkway

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In the same sense, should we shift all WCML traffic via Birmingham and abandon Nuneaton and Tamworth from London traffic?

EDIT - Yes I am aware that that would be near impossible...

I agree with Yew's comment.

 

[Zoe]

Do places like Grantham and Newark really need a direct intercity service to London? Considering when it is suggested that Virgin should stop more at Nuneaton and Tamworth this is usually met with a resounding no, why should it be different on the ECML? A semi-fast FCC service could run to Doncaster or even an EMT shuttle from Peterborough to Doncaster with passengers changing at Peterborough for faster services to London.

 

[trentside]

Do places like Grantham and Newark really need a direct intercity service to London? Considering when it is suggested that Virgin should stop more at Nuneaton and Tamworth this is usually met with a resounding no, why should it be different on the ECML? A semi-fast FCC service could run to Doncaster or even an EMT shuttle from Peterborough to Doncaster with passengers changing at Peterborough for faster services to London.

Unless there is an increase in the number of Lincoln to London trains, a reduction in ECML services calling at Newark would be very bad for Lincoln.

I believe there was a proposal at one point to run WAGN services as far north as Doncaster?

 

[37372]

Newark may not have a large population but it often seems like there are 26,000 passengers on the platform for the southbound morning services!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Didn't some local (to Stamford) landowner object to the proposal for a railway linking Stamford to the (what is now) the ECML?

Yes, that's known as "'Lord Harborough's Curve" at Stapleford near Melton Mowbray (west of the current ECML).
Though I think Harlesden's line of questioning referred to alternative routes which are east of the current ECML.

But I agree with your speculation :-

What might have been if there no objections....

There have been times when land aquisition has been very tough, as it is today. Much of our rail network might have been otherwise.

 

[northwichcat]

So Scunthorpe, a town of 73,000, loses all trains eastwards, and is served by only a stopper to Doncaster? Further, it would massively extend journey times between Manchester / Sheffield and North Lincolnshire...

Network Rail looked at making Manchester-Doncaster electric and splitting the Cleethorpes service. However, it would have still have been a Doncaster-Cleethorpes service.

If North TPE electrification goes ahead in full then a few infills could see a Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Hull service operated by a EMU.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Grimsby service replaced by a Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Hull service.
What do the professionals think of my meanderings?

When was the First TPE Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service cut back to Grimsby as stated in your quote above?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When was the First TPE Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service cut back to Grimsby as stated in your quote above?

It hasn't been cut back.

 

[Bevan Price]

1. If you can find a copy of David & Charles' Regional History of Railways, Volume 9 (East Midlands) by Robin Leleux, and read the chapter on Lincolnshire, you will see that some of the alternative routes were considered. Railway & commercial "politics" (for want of a better word) were involved in the decisions about which lines were built. The current ECML was the shortest route, but also considered were Peterborough - Lincoln - Gainsborough - Doncaster - York, and Cambridge - Wisbech - Lincoln - Doncaster (the latter proposal eventually altered & built as March - Lincoln - Doncaster,

2. Until at least the late 1980's, some Class 31-hauled trains ran Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield - Doncaster - then alternately to Hull or Cleethorpes. In steam days, there were a few through trains from Liverpool Central to Hull via Manchester Central & Woodhead

3. Until closed in the 1960's, Lincoln was also served by a line from Grantham. South & East Lincolnshire lost a lot of other railways in the Marples-Beeching closures.

 

[tbtc]

There have been times when land aquisition has been very tough, as it is today. Much of our rail network might have been otherwise.

Aye, there are a lot of "what ifs" (and not just in the "lets all blame Beeching for closing lines" way).

The WCML could have run via Northampton...

...Nottingham could have been on the main line between London/ Leicester and Sheffield/ Leeds (instead of direct trains running via Derby)...

...Bradford could have been on the main Transpennine line from Leeds to Manchester...

...there are certainly a few places which missed out on being on "main" lines (and others like Retford which just happened to be in the right place - or grew up around the railway - Doncaster/ Crewe etc).

 

[Donny Dave]

Regular services Grimsby Town-Retford-Mansfield-Nottingham with alternate trains Mansfield-Alfreton-Chesterfield-Sheffield.
The existing Doncaster-Grimsby/Cleethorpes service could be abandoned with passengers changing at Lincoln to/from the existing Newark-Grimsby service.
The Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Grimsby service replaced by a Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Hull service.
What do the professionals think of my meanderings?

So Thorne Jn - Wrawby Jn becomes freight only, with Thorne South, Crowle, Althorpe and Scunthorpe stattions closing? :?

So Scunthorpe, a town of 73,000, loses all trains eastwards, and is served by only a stopper to Doncaster? Further, it would massively extend journey times between Manchester / Sheffield and North Lincolnshire...

The current level of service Scunthorpe gets is just right, with a mixture of fast and slow services that makes a lot of the UK accessable with just 1 change.

Network Rail looked at making Manchester-Doncaster electric and splitting the Cleethorpes service. However, it would have still have been a Doncaster-Cleethorpes service.

If North TPE electrification goes ahead in full then a few infills could see a Manchester Airport-Doncaster-Hull service operated by a EMU.

Assuming that Doncaster - Hull (via both Selby and Goole) gets wired, as well as other small schemes in the area to eliminate the use of DMUs, it makes no sense to stop the wires at Thorne Jn. You would still need a pool of 5 units for the Doncaster - Cleethorpes service (assuming it's kept hourly).

While there is some through traffic from Cleethorpes and Grimsby to Doncaster and beyond, in my mind, it would make better sense to extend the OHLE to Scunthorpe and build a 3rd platform (there is enough room to build several platforms if needed and re-align the through lines), and transfer Scunthorpe - Cleethorpes and Barton - Cleethorpes services to EMT.

My logic for this is that there is a fair amount of people who do start/finish journeys from Manchester, Sheffield and Doncaster at Scunthorpe (not going by official figures here, just personal experience).

 

[bILLOO]

In the same sense, should we shift all WCML traffic via Birmingham and abandon Nuneaton and Tamworth from London traffic?

EDIT - Yes I am aware that that would be near impossible...

I agree with Yew's comment.

On a similar note, let's make all Virgin trains call at Northampton!

 

[boing_uk]

My logic for this is that there is a fair amount of people who do start/finish journeys from Manchester, Sheffield and Doncaster at Scunthorpe (not going by official figures here, just personal experience).

With probably twice as many on the TPE service originating from Grimsby / Cleethorpes. While I have been on a few quiet trains IN to GMB, even the last TPE train out on an evening is fairly busy.

According to the Rail Regulators figures, station usage for 09/10 was:

Grimsby Town 391,982
Cleethorpes 204,850
Scunthorpe 322,882
Lincoln 1,477,752
Newark Northgate 924,528

It would be nice if there was a breakdown of which operators carried what numbers of passengers from these stations, but of course that would be a LOT of data to sift through.

 

[HSTEd]

Do places like Grantham and Newark really need a direct intercity service to London? Considering when it is suggested that Virgin should stop more at Nuneaton and Tamworth this is usually met with a resounding no, why should it be different on the ECML? A semi-fast FCC service could run to Doncaster or even an EMT shuttle from Peterborough to Doncaster with passengers changing at Peterborough for faster services to London.

Thank you, you just destroyed the outer commuter market on the ECML.

Grantham and Newark see substantial commuter traffic into London which would dissapear if a change at Peterborough was required or if the trains took half an hour longer (if they were an extension of existing FCC services).

The WCML is an entirely different line to the ECML and different solutions are appropriate, by the standards of towns on the East Coast route Newark and Grantham are quite sizeable.

 

[Zoe]

Thank you, you just destroyed the outer commuter market on the ECML.

Grantham and Newark see substantial commuter traffic into London which would dissapear if a change at Peterborough was required or if the trains took half an hour longer (if they were an extension of existing FCC services).

The WCML is an entirely different line to the ECML and different solutions are appropriate, by the standards of towns on the East Coast route Newark and Grantham are quite sizeable.

There would still be peak intercity services calling at Grantham and Newark as with Nuneaton and Tamworth so the commuters would not lose out. Nuneaton and Tamworth are both three times the size of Newark in population and I expect have quite a few London commuters also but they don't get an off peak intericty service to London. Removing Grantham calls from Leeds services for example would benefit journey times from London to Leeds.

 

[Welshman]

There would still be peak intercity services calling at Grantham and Newark as with Nuneaton and Tamworth so the commuters would not lose out. Nuneaton and Tamworth are both three times the size of Newark in population and I expect have quite a few London commuters also but they don't get an off peak intericty service to London. Removing Grantham calls from Leeds services for example would benefit journey times from London to Leeds.

IIRC, the WCML is four-tracked[using the Northampton loop] all the way from Euston to Crewe, [with the short exception between Colwich and Trent Valley junctions], hence there is capacity on the "slow" lines for the LM stopping-service serving the Trent Valley stations.

But such lavish provision is not found on the ECML, as it is only two-tracked northwards from Stoke tunnel. Now I suspect were it four-tracked all the way to Doncaster, some East Coast equivalent of the LM stopping service would have been introduced, possibly extending the FCC or whatever it's called service from KX-Peterborough to Doncaster, calling at Grantham, Newark and Retford, allowing the EC services to run non-stop.

So Grantham, Newark and Retford must be served by EC expresses. Now most Anglo-Scottish and Newcastle services miss Grantham, leaving alternate Leeds services to call. Removing the Grantham stop from those services might speed-up the Leeds services by a few minutes, but would also leave Grantham with only 4 or 5 Hull Trains services per day on the main line.

It also needs to be borne in mind that Grantham acts as a London railhead for a large part of central Lincolnshire, and the fact the car-park and extended overflow car-parks are usually full shows how many, and not only commuters, do drive to Grantham on their way to London.

Lastly, don't forget that there is a flow of passengers boarding the Leeds services at Grantham for travel to Newcastle and Edinburgh, changing at Doncaster, some having already changed from services from Skegness and Boston, especially in the summer months. These journeys would also be made more difficult if your suggestion of omitting Grantham were to be implemented, as the former alternative routes north from Skeggy were closed long ago.

 

[TheBigD]

I believe there was a proposal at one point to run WAGN services as far north as Doncaster?

There was. Not 100% sure on the details so apologies if a little wrong, but the proposals were around at the same time that Hull Trains was being set up, and that the powers that be awarded Hull Trains the paths over WAGN.

Some of the paths for the extended WAGN services were appalling, with KGX-DON journey times of over 3 hours.

 

[cle]

I don't think they'd be designed for people going the whole way - or they could but cheaply, as with LM to the north.

I would have thought extending some of the services which are fast to St Neots etc... in the peaks would be the way to go.

 

[dstrat]

Lincolnshire is a huge county, with the population spread over a large area with compared to the distribution in most of England. Pity stops or whatever you would like to see Grantham, Newark and Retford (granted not in Lincs but still..) as, actually do happen to serve beyond their immediate town!

Get rid of Doncaster - Cleethorpes??? Mr Beeching you obviously don't reguarly travel on the South Pennine route very often then!! A 170 is easily filled at all times and a 185 leaves a few seats spare between Donny and Grimsby. To replace with some sort of service to Retford gives the distance of Grim to Don but without the passengers seen at Scunthorpe. Besides a large part of the Retford line is singled now anyway.

Bad, bad idea! With only my 'sitting on train experience' to go by though...it is not the Doncaster - Peterboro section that slows the trains down but rather the areas where FCC are and its double track - there are some East Coast services that slow down to nowt for about 10, 12 minutes. Arriving into Kings Cross you think you are late - actually you are perfectly on time!!

 

[tbtc]

IIRC, the WCML is four-tracked[using the Northampton loop] all the way from Euston to Crewe, [with the short exception between Colwich and Trent Valley junctions], hence there is capacity on the "slow" lines for the LM stopping-service serving the Trent Valley stations.

But such lavish provision is not found on the ECML, as it is only two-tracked northwards from Stoke tunnel

This is the problem with the idea that solving the Welwyn bottleneck is a viable equivalent to HS2 spending - whilst that would be welcome it doesn't solve things further north as there are still a lot of two track sections (plus the flat crossing at Newark)... the best way to "solve" it would be the Virgin plan for a brand new "parallel" line, but that was rejected (in favour of GNER). Shame, as it'd have been up and running by now...

most Anglo-Scottish and Newcastle services miss Grantham, leaving alternate Leeds services to call. Removing the Grantham stop from those services might speed-up the Leeds services by a few minutes, but would also leave Grantham with only 4 or 5 Hull Trains services per day on the main line

This is why the ECML would work a lot better if there were one TOC running the London services (north of Peterborough, at least). The Bradford and Sunderland trains have spare capacity on them, but run non stop to/from Doncaster/York, whilst the busier Leeds (etc) services have to find time/space for passengers from Grantham etc.

With one TOC running the show you could have a more effective split of stations/ timings, so that space was found to match demand. For example, it makes sense for Retford to be served by the shorter HT services (compared to a nine coach 225/ HST), yet the Newark/Grantham passengers watch relatively empty GC services zip past (non-stop) before fighting for a seat on a busy Leeds train...

 

[Aictos]

Isn't there room though to 4 track the ECML between Grantham and Doncaster, there's room for loops at certain parts of the route so why not 4 track it?

Equally if not why not 4 track the Joint line?

 

[Welshman]

It would be a very expensive job to build a new Stoke tunnel, add a fourth track, presumably on the west side towards Grantham and then on the east towards Newark, remodel the junction with the Nottingham line and build a new Barkston tunnel for a start!

Although it would be ideal, I think in reality it's a non-starter. And a very expensive way of saving a few minutes on the KX-Leeds schedules.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and buggering up the ECML during contruction too

 

[pmgarvey]

Thank you, you just destroyed the outer commuter market on the ECML.

Grantham and Newark see substantial commuter traffic into London which would dissapear if a change at Peterborough was required or if the trains took half an hour longer (if they were an extension of existing FCC services).

The WCML is an entirely different line to the ECML and different solutions are appropriate, by the standards of towns on the East Coast route Newark and Grantham are quite sizeable.

I don't travel on the ECML often, so I have no idea, but does this mean that they just have enormous crowds at peak times and are near empty the rest of the time? If so surely it's not beyond East Coast to have some radically different peak and off-peak timetables (though admittedly the idea of it being impossible to go from Leeds/York and further north and get into London early enough to do a day's work in London without getting up at an insane time would be commercial suicide for EC).

Do these places often see passengers going/coming from north of these stations to the north? That isn't an operational question, just a curiosity.

 

[Welshman]

I don't travel on the ECML often, so I have no idea, but does this mean that they just have enormous crowds at peak times and are near empty the rest of the time? If so surely it's not beyond East Coast to have some radically different peak and off-peak timetables (though admittedly the idea of it being impossible to go from Leeds/York and further north and get into London early enough to do a day's work in London without getting up at an insane time would be commercial suicide for EC).

Do these places often see passengers going/coming from north of these stations to the north? That isn't an operational question, just a curiosity.

My experience from living in the Grantham area for 8 years recently, is that they were full at peak times and almost full off-peak. There seems to be a large flow from Newcastle/Leeds to London throughout the day, probably encouraged by cheaper, advance-purchase tickets, targetting the coach market.

Regarding passengers from intermediate stations going north, there always seemed to be a flow off the Skegness trains making for the northbound EC trains, and v.v., as I mentioned in my previous post.