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How could the UK reduce the cost of large infrastructure projects?

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HSTEd

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You mean like this?

View attachment 198058
(Image shows ‘Figure 4 Strategic route options’ which is three side by side maps of different routes between London and the Scottish central belt. None represent the final Y-shaped design).
The Reverse S is.... rather questionable?

Newcastle to Edinburgh via Carstairs?

EDIT:

In my view HS2, to succeed at all, had to provide enough benefits to justify its existence in the first stage alone.
It's all very well suggesting that improvements will come "later", when we pinky promise that the government will sink subsidies for improved classic services forever. Or when we build "Phase 2", for which planning isn't even complete and for which no legislative authority exists.

But the problem is the population simply won't believe you. They have learned by long and bitter experience that such promises are often used as crowbars to get what the proposers want, at which point the wider scheme is quietly abandoned.
 
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Noddy

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The Reverse S is.... rather questionable?

Newcastle to Edinburgh via Carstairs?

Yes. But if you don’t look at all possible options you haven’t don’t your job correctly. Folk can’t moan that not all the options have been assessed and then complain when some of the options look ridiculous. And the reverse S is exactly what some have been arguing for on the other thread to get to Edinburgh. None of those represent the final design.

In terms of Newcastle to Edinburgh via Carstairs they are looking at how you design the whole network including Phases 3, 4 etc so you don’t kibosh yourself by not taking a holistic view from the start. And the issue with the east coast route from Newcastle is always Glasgow.
 
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Bald Rick

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It was cancelled because the costs got out of control. The political environment is that the “red wall” towns are the most important and they support investment in the north.

No, it was cancelled for political reasons,and one individual specifically who had (and retains) a passionate dislike of the whole principle of HS2.


But it’s also absurd. Are people really doing London Glasgow going to use the train if it’s 3h40 but not if it’s 3h44?

Some will yes. That is very well understood and proven in demand modelling; 1 minute does make a difference to demand. Bear in mind that a 4 minute earlier arrival in Galsgow (or 4 minute later departure) will enable some connections that otherwise mean a half hour extension in journey time.


Certainly that hasn’t been communicated well.

It’s been communicated well enough, ie it’s been out there for anyone to see for a decade.
 

HSTEd

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Yes. But if you don’t look at all possible options you haven’t don’t your job correctly. Folk can’t moan that not all the options have been assessed and then complain when some of the options look ridiculous.

In terms of Newcastle to Edinburgh via Carstairs they are looking at how you design the whole network including Phases 3, 4 etc so you don’t kibosh yourself by not taking a holistic view from the start. And the issue with the east coast route from Newcastle is always Glasgow.
The problem is that the Y scheme, which is clearly the one they went with, apparently assumes that high speed lines are cheap, and thus you can give yourself a huge pile of additional track to get some nebulous benefits.

You are looking at over 350km of high speed corridor just for Scotland-England traffic!
Then another 130km from Leeds to Newcastle.

480km versus 340km for the North East approach. (Ignoring how we reach Leeds for simplicity)

Sure its slower to Glasgow, but Glasgow just isn't a very large flow. And going via Edinburgh allows you to partially fill the line with Edinburgh-Glasgow traffic to offset the huge cost.

In summary, in terms of getting a high speed rail system at reasonable cost, S seems to be the preferable option.

The benefits of marginally quicker trips to Glasgow can't reasonably carry the burden of the extra track.

EDIT:
Just to clarify, if you are looking at an "inverse S" option, I don't think the one they've chosen as representative is really sensible.
 
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CMS1

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You mean like this?

View attachment 198058
(Image shows ‘Figure 4 Strategic route options’ which is three side by side maps of different routes between London and the Scottish central belt. None represent the final Y-shaped design).
I hope that's not what they used to decide! Doesn't tell you anything e.g. existing motorway corridors or problem territories like the Chilterns.

There’s been no attempt to explain to the public why the M1/M40 routes were unsuitable.
It appears the M1 route wasn't even considered in context of the overall network, only as a Phase 1 option still diverting everything through Birmingham which defeats the object of the M1 option.
 

Noddy

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EDIT:

In my view HS2, to succeed at all, had to provide enough benefits to justify its existence in the first stage alone.
It's all very well suggesting that improvements will come "later", when we pinky promise that the government will sink subsidies for improved classic services forever. Or when we build "Phase 2", for which planning isn't even complete and for which no legislative authority exists.

You are making the exact opposite complaint to the one CMS1 is making. They are arguing that HS2 is an example of a project failing to plan strategically while you are saying they just need to plan one phase at a time and not consider what happens later. Personally as a regular user of the M4 in south wales I was kind over hoping we as a nation had accepted that kind of piecemeal planning was a strategic failure.
 

HSTEd

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You are making the exact opposite complaint to the one CMS is making. They are arguing that HS2 is an example of a project failing to plan strategically while you are saying they just need to plan one phase at a time and not consider what happens later. Personally as a regular user of the M4 in south wales I was kind over hoping we as a nation had accepted that kind of piecemeal planning was a strategic failure.
They are both extremes of planning and both are, in my view, equally dysfunctional.

HS2's position was apparently that they can promise the moon later and use it as leverage to get what they want in the short and medium term, just assuming their press releases will be sufficient security for the public to believe them.
I'm not arguing that we should not pay attention to later strategic factors, but you cannot (over)emphasise them over the near term realities.

HS2 is dead because it banked everything on having enough political capital to get all phases through, with apparently no serious consideration given to what happens if they can't.

HS2 could have a half dozen stations on the M1 corridor and it would still have had the capacity available to be transformative for rail travel in the UK in later phases. It could have sucked down virtually all non metro WCML traffic (and taken a bite out of the southern MML traffic) and barely impacted its ability to carry passengers from further north. Indeed, even stopping a half dozen times a modern EMU could have beaten the classic railway handily.

Even in its current conception it arguably leaves capacity on the table by sticking to a conservative cross section and heavy reliance on classic compatibles.
 

quantinghome

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And how many curves are even that limiting?
I can't tell without knowing what section of track you're talking about. Can you snip a shot from here and post it? https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

Now the “logic” for the lack of intermediate stations makes sense.
That was actually a sensible decision. It would add 7-10 minutes to overall journeys for a station in the middle of nowhere serving hardly anyone. The areas HS2 passes through already have decent local and regional rail services.

But it’s also absurd. Are people really doing London Glasgow going to use the train if it’s 3h40 but not if it’s 3h44?
Exactly. I mean, there is a case for increasing the speed up to the point above which the engineering problems mount up. But that's where you stop.
 

Noddy

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I'm not arguing that we should not pay attention to later strategic factors, but you cannot emphasise them over the near term realities.

When did HS2 emphasise hypothetical phases 3 and 4 to Newcastle/Edinburgh/Glasgow? Phase 2 had Royal Assent and was progressing steadily (and would be in construction now) until Rishi took to an entirely political decision at the Tory party conference to cancel it.
 
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eldomtom2

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Bear in mind that a 4 minute earlier arrival in Galsgow (or 4 minute later departure) will enable some connections that otherwise mean a half hour extension in journey time.
Wouldn't it be easier to retime the connections?
 

deltic

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I dont think a number of people on here appreciate the level of detail that was gone into in developing route options given Ministerial directions and environmental constraints. I was involved in station location optioneering on Phase 2. In each city we were looking at over 20 potential options each with their pros & cons in terms of route corridors into the city, suitable sites for actually accomodating a station, potential for onward connections and its ability to support development taking into account local politicians objectives and priorities, impacts on residents etc. There will always be trade offs and what works for some people/communities will not work for others.
 

MatthewHutton

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Some will yes

Sure. But not many.

I mean calls at even relatively small stations like Motherwell, Lockerbie, Oxenholme and Penrith each with 1tp2h is going to provide far more extra passengers than those you would lose to Edinburgh and Glasgow by trips taking 4 minutes longer.

It would add 7-10 minutes to overall journeys for a station in the middle of nowhere serving hardly anyone
All stations proposed in the south and midlands would be looking at well over a million passengers a year, likely well over 2 million.

And a ten minute delay is an exaggeration, 5-6 minutes per stop on a high speed section is a reasonable range depending on speed given modern rail performance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I dont think a number of people on here appreciate the level of detail that was gone into in developing route options given Ministerial directions and environmental constraints
But this hasn’t been communicated with even well connected people in the Thames valley such as myself.
 

Peter Sarf

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Unlikely. The land required is a function of the scale of the railway, not where it is. Arguably, it would havebeen more if it followed the motorways, as the alignment of the railway would have to be straighter than the motorway (imagine going round the Otmoor curve at 200mph, it’s a challenge at 80!), and therefore likely need to cross the motorway multiple times, and cut corners leaving parts of land with no access.
I suppose following the M1 might have made access to worksites easier. No wait all that extra traffic on the M1 !.
...............

The M25 / A3 junction improvemnt is over £300m in 2026..
And I have heard that many observers believed the A3/M25 junction should have originally been built better - Like the M23/M25 and M4/M25 junctions were ?.
See below !.
(Anb the black cat has already been rebuilt twice in my time driving)

“Train people” aren’t doing it. The people employed in developing that part of the project are the same individuals who work on highway projects, power projects, etc.
Thanks for reminding. It seems some people just believe it is a railway problem, which it isn't.
I fed a few of the papers and some HS2 specific ones (will share later) into claude for a summary of the papers:

The four root causes (NIC framework, endorsed by Stewart Review)

The NIC identifies four systemic root causes, and the Stewart Review explicitly endorses this framework. All four must be addressed together — the NIC is clear that government providing strategic direction is "foundational" and without it the other reforms won't reliably work.


Root cause 1: Lack of clear strategic direction

The UK's stop-start approach to infrastructure investment destroys the conditions needed for efficient delivery. When the pipeline is uncertain, contractors price in risk, don't invest in skills or capital equipment, treat each project as discrete, and the workforce fragments. The NIC contrasts this with offshore wind, where the Contracts for Difference model provided long-term funding certainty and costs fell by two-thirds between 2015 and 2022. For rail electrification specifically, the UK's intermittent approach created a workforce deficit of 1,000–2,000 people per year and a 12% salary premium, while Germany's steady programme achieves materially lower unit costs.

The PwC benchmarking study found the same pattern internationally: countries with multi-year high-speed rail programmes benefited from continuity of client professionals, industry investment, innovation, and historical data for risk allowances. The UK's approach produces the opposite — a fragmented industry with low investment, low productivity, and high overhead.

The Stewart Review recommends that NISTA be given overall leadership of the UK infrastructure programme (R79) and that a dedicated Minister for Infrastructure and Construction be considered (R78). Stewart also notes that the regulated sectors, particularly energy, have a better delivery track record, suggesting private funding and leadership structures like the RAB model bring beneficial discipline. The construction sector workforce has shrunk by 340,000 workers (14%) between 2019 and 2023, with older workers leaving and too few younger workers joining — a problem the NIC says will worsen without action.


Root cause 2: Client and sponsor challenges

The NIC's analysis found that over 50% of available cost reductions require action before construction begins. The pattern across the documents is consistent: budgets are set too early on immature designs, requirements aren't iterated against affordability, and then reality forces expensive redesign during construction.

The Stewart Review provides the sharpest HS2-specific evidence. Stewart found that "a culture of driving down cost to manage affordability has been absent from the Programme." Requirements and scope were owned by DfT but cost and schedule by HS2 Ltd, with inadequate iteration between them. Political decisions drove scope changes without robust cost challenge. Stewart recommends using a Financial Shareholder to challenge political decision-making that impacts cost (R43), requiring time to iterate requirements, scope, design and cost before committing (R42, R46), and establishing a Project Controls sub-board to scrutinise cost forecasts (R45).

The NAO's HS2 update provides the contract-level detail. HS2's main works civils contracts incentivised contractors to prioritise schedule over cost management. There was little commercial consequence for starting construction before design was confirmed, and complex design assurance processes led to fragmented design work that increased costs. HS2 Ltd had limited cost information from the supply chain, reducing its ability to assess which cost increases were genuinely necessary.

The PwC benchmarking study found that comparator projects internationally established affordability constraints at an early stage and incorporated cost considerations into all alignment, design and scope decisions. PwC concluded that HS2 Phase Two would benefit significantly from an affordability target established through rigorous understanding of the assets to be delivered — something that was notably absent.

The NAO's mega-projects report adds a governance dimension: the standard model where a single department is accountable often fails at mega scale. Where views differ between departments and HM Treasury about the purpose of a project, decision-making suffers. The NAO recommends defining a formal "mega-project" category with different governance requirements, potentially with HM Treasury or NISTA having a formal position on the project board during early stages. Stewart reinforces this with the structural observation that projects can become too big for a single entity to manage — HS2 Ltd's scope of responsibilities could have been reduced, for example by using a separate delivery structure for Euston.


Root cause 3: Inefficient consenting and compliance

The NIC provides unusually specific evidence. NSIP approvals increased by 65% between 2012 and 2022, reaching an average of about four years and over five and a half years in complex cases. The proportion of schemes subject to judicial review spiked to 58% from a long-term average of around 10%. Even after HS2's hybrid bill, more than 8,000 further consents were required from local authorities, the Environment Agency, and Natural England. The Lower Thames Crossing planning application alone cost £267m, illustrating the direct cost of the consenting system itself.

The NIC identifies structural problems: the system has become more complex and contested; individual actors are aligned to their own organisational objectives rather than the overarching goal; and late design changes driven by compliance add costs during construction. Delay is expensive in its own right — the NIC cites the A428 scheme where a one-year delay from a meritless legal challenge imposed £24m in inflationary costs with no design change. The NIC's earlier study proposed solutions that could reduce consent times from four years to two.

The Stewart Review endorses the government's September 2024 proposed reforms to planning, noting that without significant reform, major projects will continue to face cost and schedule delay. The NAO's mega-project report adds that the ICE found immature designs and consents "greatly contributed to cost escalation on HS2" and recommended that sponsors must be "ruthless in gate reviews" until design and planning are sufficiently mature.


Root cause 4: Constrained supply chain

The UK is an international outlier in the fragmentation of its construction sector. The NIC reports approximately 23,000 companies in civil engineering, nearly 90% employing fewer than eight people. Tier one contractors commonly use 50–70 subcontractors per project. The PwC benchmarking study found this fragmentation drives a 12% cost difference compared to less fragmented international comparators, through layered administration costs, profits, and risk premiums at each tier. The NIC's analysis shows that multiple layers of subcontracting overheads can make up more than 50% of a project's total cost.

The Stewart Review found that HS2 stretched the civils supply market beyond its capacity and that the structure of the UK market, with Tier 1 suppliers relying heavily on outsourced design and sub-contracting, has fundamental shortcomings. Stewart recommends NISTA conduct a review of the capacity and capability of the civils construction sector (R80).

Construction sector labour productivity has flatlined for 15 years. The NIC links this directly to lack of pipeline certainty — firms can't justify investing in capital, technology, or skills without confidence in future work. Where certainty exists, the market responds: Laing O'Rourke invested in off-site manufacture for housing on the promise of a significant pipeline and achieved a 60% improvement in production rates. The Tunnelling and Underground Construction Academy, set up for Crossrail, is now training staff for other projects. The Construction Leadership Council's analysis of 20,000 projects found those with the best front-end planning had 20% lower costs and were delivered 10–15% faster.


Cross-cutting: the gold-plating and risk aversion problem

This runs through multiple documents but is articulated most powerfully in the Nuclear Regulatory Review (2025). While focused on nuclear, the review identifies three structural drivers of over-specification that apply across infrastructure. First, a culture where the system cannot reward success but can punish failure, encouraging risk aversion at every level. Second, prioritisation of process over outcomes — elaborate process serves as a protective mechanism, dispersing responsibility and reducing the need for judgement. Third, misaligned incentives — cost-plus contracts and weak competitive pressure remove incentives for efficiency, creating what the review calls "a culture of costly compliance."

The review provides striking examples: a ventilation design change during the ABWR assessment cut emissions by one ten-thousandth of the legal dose limit at enormous expense. Safety cases have become so long and complex that no single person can read and understand them. The review describes a "one-way ratchet" where regulatory complexity grows over time because no single actor has the agency to reduce it.

The NIC's evidence from rail is parallel: Network Rail identified £156m in efficiencies in its CP7 programme simply by reviewing safety standards without compromising safety. The PwC benchmarking study found HS2 Phase Two's key assets were being developed to higher specifications than comparator schemes, driving a 5% cost difference.

The nuclear review's recommended remedy — contractual mechanisms that incentivise proportionate solutions and a culture reset where outcomes matter more than process — has clear read-across to transport and other sectors.


The meta-finding: the UK knows what to do but repeatedly fails to do it

This is arguably the most important thing the documents say. The NIC notes that past studies have identified these problems but their findings have "not been applied at scale or with the consistency needed." The Stewart Review observes that the last government report on the construction sector was from 2019. The NAO's mega-projects report notes that comprehensive guidance on effective governance already exists — the problem is consistent application. The nuclear review describes a "culture of resignation" where people simply accept that projects must be slow and expensive.

Multiple documents stress that piecemeal interventions won't work. The NIC's conclusion is that "only a system wide effort targeting the root causes — rather than piecemeal interventions — will enable the UK to reap the rewards." This means reform has to be sustained across political cycles, which loops back to the foundational requirement for long-term strategic commitment.
Thankyou for taking the time to post this. I eventually got through it despite interruptions !.

Lots to digest in there. I think civil engineering resources are tight made worse by the lack of a rolling project. You are never going to have good efficient construction if you are forever having to train new staff and have suppliers tooling up for a short term demand (they need payback for the investment quickly). For HS2 Phase 2a should have benefited from the struggles to establish phase 1 construction. But no Phase 2 (a and B) is going to be stalled and thus lose all the chances of economy. The word sabotage springs to mind. Certainly no sense of security.

Your very last paragraph. Reminds me that if HS2 had been all done outside of political parties, so like HS1 (ie more as a private enterprise), then perhaps the project could have plodded on regardless ?.
Compared to M6 toll ?.
...............................

HS2 is very big city centric. Even Coventry our 10th largest city hasn’t been treated particularly well - and certainly the fairly large East Midlands cities haven’t.
I am not sure I get the connection between your point in reply to that by @Bald Rick . But I feel Coventry being the tenth biggest city is in the league of cities not likely to be directly served By HS2 but still benefiting from relief to their existing services/lines and an out of town parkway so will have done quite well.

We really need to avoid trying to add too many stops to the route, it is there to relieve existing routes much like a motorway has fewer junctions on it than the roads it relieves.

If people cannot see that then there is a problem for all sorts of construction projects. Obviously most people will only view a construction project as how it affects them directly and right now. So the bigger picture gets lost. That is a human trait/weakness perhaps BUT is the problem that we are not accepting it and addressing it ?. Communication.
I dont think a number of people on here appreciate the level of detail that was gone into in developing route options given Ministerial directions and environmental constraints. I was involved in station location optioneering on Phase 2. In each city we were looking at over 20 potential options each with their pros & cons in terms of route corridors into the city, suitable sites for actually accomodating a station, potential for onward connections and its ability to support development taking into account local politicians objectives and priorities, impacts on residents etc. There will always be trade offs and what works for some people/communities will not work for others.
Good point. Unfortunately most people only see the looming result. You cannot get them to take an interest in options at an early stage. The NIMBYs will never be interested in options anyway but perhaps there is some way of getting more buy in from politicians (I do not know).
 

Noddy

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I dont think a number of people on here appreciate the level of detail that was gone into in developing route options given Ministerial directions and environmental constraints. I was involved in station location optioneering on Phase 2. In each city we were looking at over 20 potential options each with their pros & cons in terms of route corridors into the city, suitable sites for actually accomodating a station, potential for onward connections and its ability to support development taking into account local politicians objectives and priorities, impacts on residents etc.

Thank you for this. I do hope you’re not too depressed by what you’re reading.

There will always be trade offs and what works for some people/communities will not work for others.

Something that nimbys will never, ever consider because they are completely blinded by their own views and opinions.
 

MatthewHutton

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I can't tell without knowing what section of track you're talking about. Can you snip a shot from here and post it? https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
Ok so the “M40” proposal follows the chiltern mainline from West Ruislip to Bicester before following the M40.

I think broadly the line is pretty straight and was built to support 4 tracking. The challenges to my mind are the West Wycombe curve and the one north of Princes Risborough, the latter of which would be easy to cut, the former of which might have to be in the High Wycombe tunnel.

Denham Golf Club to just beyond Gerrards Cross is another challenge.

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We really need to avoid trying to add too many stops to the route, it is there to relieve existing routes much like a motorway has fewer junctions on it than the roads it relieves.
I agree. But that means “not 10” not “not three”. There are 17 longer distance stops on the chiltern mainline alone.

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Something that nimbys will never, ever consider because they are completely blinded by their own views and opinions.
95% of the population aren’t “NIMBYs”
 

HSTEd

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When did HS2 emphasise hypothetical phases 3 and 4 to Newcastle/Edinburgh/Glasgow? Phase 2 had Royal Assent and was progressing steadily (and would be in construction now) until Rishi took to an entirely political decision at the Tory party conference to cancel it.
A small fraction of Phase 2 had royal assent.

The rest of Phase 2 had already been axed.

EDIT:

Political decisions going against the scheme still count, it represents the failure of the project to properly manage its stock of political capital/commitment.
 

Peter Sarf

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..........................

I agree. But that means “not 10” not “not three”. There are 17 longer distance stops on the chiltern mainline alone.
Not sure I get you there BUT 17 longer distance stops on the Chiltern main line is way over the top for a relief line.
Got to see HS2 as drastically different to existing lines from 100-200 years ago, different need.
The perception there maybe a project problem like no one wants a nuclear power station on their door step BUT we all want the electricity !.
95% of the population aren’t “NIMBYs”
But approaching 95% might be NIMBYs if the relevant project is right under their nose. Your not a NIMBY if you are not affected.
 

MatthewHutton

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The perception there maybe a project problem like no one wants a nuclear power station on their door step BUT we all want the electricity !.
Actually people quite like the work from a nuclear plant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But approaching 95% might be NIMBYs if the relevant project is right under their nose. Your not a NIMBY if you are not affected
Then you have to make sure there is a benefit. But you can’t really describe all those people against stuff with no rhyme or reason.
 

JamesT

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Your very last paragraph. Reminds me that if HS2 had been all done outside of political parties, so like HS1 (ie more as a private enterprise), then perhaps the project could have plodded on regardless ?.
Compared to M6 toll ?.
In what way was HS1 done outside of political parties? There was still a piece of legislation required for it, just like HS2. I don't think there would have been anything preventing the incoming Labour government from cancelling it, like they did with all the roads schemes.
Although the company appointed to build HS1 started off as a private company, it did have to be propped up and eventually nationalised.
The M6 Toll took 20 years to go from being put out to consultation to work actually starting, after going through multiple public enquiries and legal challenges. But after that it was only 3 years to build and there was essentially no chance of a change of administration during construction to prevent it finishing.
 

Noddy

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The rest of Phase 2 had already been axed.

Phase 2b Crewe to Manchester is still progressing (albeit extremely slowly) through parliament under the guise of NPR!
95% of the population aren’t “NIMBYs”

Did I say 95% of the population are nimbys?

But they do form an extremely vocal minority that we let cost the country extreme amounts of money every year, and they do exist everywhere from the wealthiest to the poorest communities and in both the most and least attractive areas. One of the most ironic have have seen in my work as a surveyor was when the occupants of phase 1 of a rural housing development (age approximately 2 years) had formed a campaign group against phase 2 (and had signs up everywhere) despite both phases having outline planning granted at the same time. What an absolute waste of time and money for everyone involved, but especially the taxpayer.
 

MatthewHutton

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But I feel Coventry being the tenth biggest city is in the league of cities not likely to be directly served By HS2
But in every other country with high speed rail it would be.

That’s part of the issue. You are narrowing the coalition.

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Did I say 95% of the population are nimbys?
95% of people in Buckinghamshire do oppose HS2 because of how it’s been handled.

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One of the most ironic have have seen in my work as a surveyor was when the occupants of phase 1 of a rural housing development (age approximately 2 years) had formed a campaign group against phase 2 (and had signs up everywhere) despite both phases having outline planning granted at the same time. What an absolute waste of time and money for everyone involved, but especially the taxpayer.
That is insane.
 

Peter Sarf

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Actually people quite like the work from a nuclear plant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Then you have to make sure there is a benefit. But you can’t really describe all those people against stuff with no rhyme or reason.
The problem is people not seeing the bigger picture. Now in the case of a large project there needs to be careful attention paid to information - cannot ignore the locals.
In what way was HS1 done outside of political parties? There was still a piece of legislation required for it, just like HS2. I don't think there would have been anything preventing the incoming Labour government from cancelling it, like they did with all the roads schemes.
Although the company appointed to build HS1 started off as a private company, it did have to be propped up and eventually nationalised.
The M6 Toll took 20 years to go from being put out to consultation to work actually starting, after going through multiple public enquiries and legal challenges. But after that it was only 3 years to build and there was essentially no chance of a change of administration during construction to prevent it finishing.
It certainly point to smaller projects having the benefit of getting done within one political cycle.
Phase 2b Crewe to Manchester is still progressing (albeit extremely slowly) through parliament under the guise of NPR!


Did I say 95% of the population are nimbys?

But they do form an extremely vocal minority that we let cost the country extreme amounts of money every year, and they do exist everywhere from the wealthiest to the poorest communities and in both the most and least attractive areas. One of the most ironic have have seen in my work as a surveyor was when the occupants of phase 1 of a rural housing development (age approximately 2 years) had formed a campaign group against phase 2 (and had signs up everywhere) despite both phases having outline planning granted at the same time. What an absolute waste of time and money for everyone involved, but especially the taxpayer.
Oh and an even better example. Local pub to me has a beer garden. That now has to close at 9pm because of complaints from the 3 story (iirc) flats overlooking the beer garden. The pub has been there for over three hundred years. The flats were built in the last ten years despite the pub objecting to the planning application. So whoever moved into the flats could see the beer garden was already right there under their noses.
 

MatthewHutton

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Words fail.
You don’t get the widespread dislike HS2 attracts in general with projects though. It’s normally more balanced.

Mostly people don’t have strong views.

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The problem is people not seeing the bigger picture. Now in the case of a large project there needs to be careful attention paid to information - cannot ignore the locals.
Yep agree.
 

Peter Sarf

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You don’t get the widespread dislike HS2 attracts in general with projects though. It’s normally more balanced.

Mostly people don’t have strong views.

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Yep agree.
BUT still have to get the job done eventually.
 

Noddy

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Oh and an even better example. Local pub to me has a beer garden. That now has to close at 9pm because of complaints from the 3 story (iirc) flats overlooking the beer garden. The pub has been there for over three hundred years. The flats were built in the last ten years despite the pub objecting to the planning application. So whoever moved into the flats could see the beer garden was already right there under their noses.

Not surprised to hear this in the slightest sadly.


You don’t get the widespread dislike HS2 attracts in general with projects though. It’s normally more balanced.

Mostly people don’t have strong views.

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What I think you fail to appreciate is that you (and everyone) live in a bubble. It’s why you’ve pulled a figure of 95% out of thin air. For you your anti HS2 views are constantly being reinforced by those around you and you reinforce their views. It’s clear for example you didn’t know how much work HS2 had put into developing different route strategies and no doubt you’ve been spreading those opinions and views with those in your world, despite the fact that all the evidence was there for you to look at if you want to make a reasoned, informed decision.

In my world away from HS2 no one really cares about it other than possibly occasional headlines about the price. Likewise Lower Thames Crossing. However, ask them about Hinckley Point and/or the pylons running through North Somerset and you will quickly get very strong views, which for you in your world would not be relevant.

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@MatthewHutton I just want to reiterate that isn’t meant as a personal or direct attack. Most people are small c conservatives if it comes to their own area, whether that’s in the middle of a national park or the middle of a city. The key is being able to recognise one’s own bias but going to the effort to develop and make an informed and reasoned decision anyway.
 
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MatthewHutton

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However, ask them about Hinckley Point and/or the pylons running through North Somerset and you will quickly get very strong views, which for you in your world would not be relevant.
I think the question on this which I know nothing about is whether the people building the power plant have made it clear to the locals about the jobs that will be created, whether the power lines are going the right way, whether they should be offering more compensation etc?

Whether simply they need to go to the parish councils and give them the opportunity to have a conversation on an annual basis?

Because while you are never going to win everyone over you do have to try.

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@MatthewHutton I just want to reiterate that isn’t meant as a personal or direct attack
That’s very kind of you and I don’t feel that at all!

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It’s clear for example you didn’t know how much work HS2 had put into developing different route strategies
I wonder if some of this stuff was done at the beginning and hasn’t been communicated more recently?

I did think the original documents which I did read at the beginning didn’t seem to explain the choices made very well.

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Yes. But if you don’t look at all possible options you haven’t don’t your job correctly.
I would have thought if you are approaching from the east that doing an Antwerpen Centraal style station in Edinburgh before continuing to Glasgow would be quite a strong option.
 

JamesT

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I would have thought if you are approaching from the east that doing an Antwerpen Centraal style station in Edinburgh before continuing to Glasgow would be quite a strong option.
How are you proposing to put multiple levels into Edinburgh Waverley? It's in the bottom of a valley so going underneath would be problematic, and it's grade A listed so you're not going to be able to mess with the roof.
 
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