How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

[Purple Orange]

Traditionally, St. Ann's Square has been the centre of Manchester, with Deansgate station very much on the periphery. Of course, if you live over towards there, you may well consider it to be the centre of your bubble.

That is of course true. But the city centre has grown a lot and I dont know anyone who would say Deansgate station is not in the city centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Traditionally, St. Ann's Square has been the centre of Manchester, with Deansgate station very much on the periphery. Of course, if you live over towards there, you may well consider it to be the centre of your bubble.

Manchester city centre is getting quite big (Salford Central is now for example not in wasteland any more) and so is heading towards needing to be thought of more like London with Metrolink used to get around it rather than just to it. That being the case I guess a city centre line that didn't go to Picc or Vic would be OK as long as it connected well with the others.

 

[Purple Orange]

Manchester city centre is getting quite big (Salford Central is now for example not in wasteland any more) and so is heading towards needing to be thought of more like London with Metrolink used to get around it rather than just to it. That being the case I guess a city centre line that didn't go to Picc or Vic would be OK as long as it connected well with the others.

This is why the central manchester lines need to be 'de-cluttered' of the huge variety of services that run through castlefield and Salford Central. People call for a metro line through Manchester, but it already has one. The problem is that the line cant yet be used as a metro. We need to arrive at there being three core metro lines through the centre:

• Picc-OxfordRd-Deansgate-SalfordCentral-Vic
• Picc-OxfordRd-Deansgate-CLC
• Vic-SalfordCentral-SalfordCrescent

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why the central manchester lines need to be 'de-cluttered' of the huge variety of services that run through castlefield and Salford Central. People call for a metro line through Manchester, but it already has one. The problem is that the line cant yet be used as a metro. We need to arrive at there being three core metro lines through the centre:

• Picc-OxfordRd-Deansgate-SalfordCentral-Vic
• Picc-OxfordRd-Deansgate-CLC
• Vic-SalfordCentral-SalfordCrescent

There really isn't any scope to do that, though. It could be done for Castlefield (and I've argued a number of times that it should), but that would need to involve rebuilding Victoria to provide a proper second "Hauptbahnhof" for the east-west stuff. People often think it has infinite capacity and it really doesn't, though it does have more than Castlefield. 6 or 8 long through platforms (min 200m, with at least one island 265m to accommodate a diverted 11 car Pendolino) is what is needed, and Salford Central also wants rebuilding to be becoming of a major city and not in competition with Bruxelles-Chapelle for being an abject dump.

With that, get the wires up and Atherton could easily be a Merseyrail style arrangement connected to things on the other side, e.g. perhaps half hourly all stations to Rochdale and half-hourly all stations* to Staly.

* Yes, all one of them, but perhaps consideration should be given to reopening Park and Miles Platting now more development is taking place.

 

[Purple Orange]

There really isn't any scope to do that, though. It could be done for Castlefield (and I've argued a number of times that it should), but that would need to involve rebuilding Victoria to provide a proper second "Hauptbahnhof" for the east-west stuff. People often think it has infinite capacity and it really doesn't, though it does have more than Castlefield. 6 or 8 long through platforms (min 200m, with at least one island 265m to accommodate a diverted 11 car Pendolino) is what is needed, and Salford Central also wants rebuilding to be becoming of a major city and not in competition with Bruxelles-Chapelle for being an abject dump.

With that, get the wires up and Atherton could easily be a Merseyrail style arrangement connected to things on the other side, e.g. perhaps half hourly all stations to Rochdale and half-hourly all stations* to Staly.

* Yes, all one of them, but perhaps consideration should be given to reopening Park and Miles Platting now more development is taking place.

I dont think it would need victoria to be rebuilt. In the first instance we would be looking at 4 tph on all three routes. That can be accommodated in a post NPR world and see semi-fasts mixed in woth the trafic.

Rochdale services can act like a metro to begin with. Salford Central needs expanding and it would take directing all southport to Vic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dont think it would need victoria to be rebuilt. In the first instance we would be looking at 4 tph on all three routes. That can be accommodated in a post NPR world and see semi-fasts mixed in woth the trafic.

If an NPR tunnel took all east-west through services off both Victoria and Castlefield it would probably be just about doable. But I'm not sure that tunnel is ever likely to be built.

 

[Purple Orange]

If an NPR tunnel took all east-west through services off both Victoria and Castlefield it would probably be just about doable. But I'm not sure that tunnel is ever likely to be built.

It doesnt need a tunnel. It just needs TPE fasts to not be going through Victoria.

 

[HSTEd]

I am intrigued by the idea of tram-trains running fast on the normal lines out to the end of the Metrolink routes, then running back in along the Metrolink line and vice versa.

For example, what if the Eccles via Media City tram was replaced with a Media City via Eccles tram?

Or one that terminated at Cornbrook and ran out to Eccles via Media City, then back to the centre on the railway (obviously leaving before the junctions in the Castlefield approach)

Although I doubt there are many lines with the capacity.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesnt need a tunnel. It just needs TPE fasts to not be going through Victoria.

Where other than Castlefield or Victoria are you going to put them if it's not an NPR tunnel under central Manchester?

Don't forget you're also moving 6tph per direction over from Castlefield to achieve your metro service there - the two Blackpools, the Southport, the Barrow/Windermere, the Scotland and the TfW. None of those can move to a HS2-based "reverse at Picc" NPR. (corrected, sorry)

 

[Purple Orange]

Where other than Castlefield or Victoria are you going to put them if it's not an NPR tunnel under central Manchester?

NPR will be taking away the paths for the fast trans pennine services in to Piccadilly HS2. That leaves the semi-fasts and stoppers. In a post TRU world that reaults in 6 tph running out of Stalybridge (4 stoppers and 2 semi fast), which can head to Victoria. The 4 stoppers can constitute a metro route. The NPR trains reverse to the airport and then onwards, ideally linking up to Liverpool via Warrington.

 

[HSTEd]

Also - how would people feel about an elevated tram-metro-thing down some of the very wide roads in south Manchester?

Princess Road for example, an elevated option is considerably cheaper than a tunneled metro and much less disruptive to surface activities than trying to put a tram down the street.

I suppose the biggest question would be whether the set back of the housing is sufficient for light/privacy etc. Although Princess Road does have the advantage that for most of it's length there is not housing hard up against it on both sides - so I suppose it could slew to the non-housing side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also - how would people feel about an elevated tram-metro-thing down some of the very wide roads in south Manchester?

Princess Road for example, an elevated option is considerably cheaper than a tunneled metro and much less disruptive to surface activities than trying to put a tram down the street.

I suppose the biggest question would be whether the set back of the housing is sufficient for light/privacy etc. Although Princess Road does have the advantage that for most of it's length there is not housing hard up against it on both sides - so I suppose it could slew to the non-housing side.

A massive eyesore and a maintenance liability, I'd say. Not a great idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2021 ==

NPR will be taking away the paths for the fast trans pennine services in to Piccadilly HS2. That leaves the semi-fasts and stoppers. In a post TRU world that reaults in 6 tph running out of Stalybridge (4 stoppers and 2 semi fast), which can head to Victoria. The 4 stoppers can constitute a metro route. The NPR trains reverse to the airport and then onwards, ideally linking up to Liverpool via Warrington.

But your Piccadilly proposal was for Castlefield to only be 4 from the CLC and 4 from Victoria via Ordsall, wasn't it?

Where are you going to fit the 6 other TPH (2 x Blackpool, Southport, TfW, Barrow/Windermere and Scotland) without expanding Victoria?

 

[Greybeard33]

NPR will be taking away the paths for the fast trans pennine services in to Piccadilly HS2. That leaves the semi-fasts and stoppers. In a post TRU world that reaults in 6 tph running out of Stalybridge (4 stoppers and 2 semi fast), which can head to Victoria. The 4 stoppers can constitute a metro route. The NPR trains reverse to the airport and then onwards, ideally linking up to Liverpool via Warrington.

You also have 6tph into Vic from Rochdale (3 Leeds, 1 Blackburn, 2 Rochdale). From the west, assuming you have diverted the Atherton line on to Metrolink, you have at least 8tph from Bolton (1 Scotland, 1 Cumbria, 2 Blackpool, 2 Southport, 2 Blackburn/Clitheroe) and 5tph from the Chat Moss (2tph Chester/N Wales, 2tph Liverpool stoppers, 1tph Wigan via Golborne), plus your 4tph of Ordsall Chord metro. Total 17tph, assuming some of the above constitute your Vic - Salford Crescent metro.

Even if you can match routes/paths up to make 12 through services, 17 into 12 won't go, so you need to expand Victoria to terminate at least 5tph from the west.

 

[Purple Orange]

A massive eyesore and a maintenance liability, I'd say. Not a great idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2021 ==



But your Piccadilly proposal was for Castlefield to only be 4 from the CLC and 4 from Victoria via Ordsall, wasn't it?

Where are you going to fit the 6 other TPH (2 x Blackpool, Southport, TfW, Barrow/Windermere and Scotland) without expanding Victoria?

It depends how you constitute the services for a metro. We have to look atvwhat can be achieved with the following having taken place:

• NPR removes fast Leeds services from Vic.
• Atherton line is converted to metrolink, thus removing 2 paths from Vic.
• TRU is completed, facilitating an additional stopper and semi-fast.
• Remodelling at Oxford Rd and 2 new platforms at Piccadilly.
• Assume Castlefield can handle at least 12 tph plus 1 frieght.
• Salford Central gets 3 new platforms.
• Bay platforms at Vic may be needed (knocking down the arena will never happen).

The southports should connect in to the Rochdale stoppers. Liverpool-Sheffields should go through Chat Moss. Blackpools terminate at Vic, as should the TfW and Scotlands.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2021 ==

You also have 6tph into Vic from Rochdale (3 Leeds, 1 Blackburn, 2 Rochdale). From the west, assuming you have diverted the Atherton line on to Metrolink, you have at least 8tph from Bolton (1 Scotland, 1 Cumbria, 2 Blackpool, 2 Southport, 2 Blackburn/Clitheroe) and 5tph from the Chat Moss (2tph Chester/N Wales, 2tph Liverpool stoppers, 1tph Wigan via Golborne), plus your 4tph of Ordsall Chord metro. Total 17tph, assuming some of the above constitute your Vic - Salford Crescent metro.

Even if you can match routes/paths up to make 12 through services, 17 into 12 won't go, so you need to expand Victoria to terminate at least 5tph from the west.

Terninal capacity from the west is key. A solution needs to be found otherwise the improvements that are needed to be seen cant be delivered.

 

[jfollows]

For me, rail services in Manchester would be improved if more of them stopped at Deansgate. It's a better place to change to/from Metrolink than Piccadilly, and it's more convenient to some of the parts of Manchester I want to get to. I sometimes go Wilmslow-Airport-Deansgate to catch a train which stops at Deansgate and to avoid having to use Piccadilly platform 14.

As others have said, I'd like to see a frequent Piccadilly-Victoria service, say every 10 minutes, calling at all stations including Salford Central. I know that's not possible for a number of reasons today.

At least the Crewe-Liverpool stopper gives me an hourly service to Deansgate so I don't complain too much.

EDIT But my perspective is just one example of the multitude of conflicting requirements, not all of which can be satisfied, as discussed already in this thread. The best final solution is going to be the "least worst" to the smallest number of people, or something like that. I don't expect I'll get a faster Wilmslow-Deansgate service in part of that!

 

[Purple Orange]

From a metro perspective, why shouldn’t the two stoppers from Stalybridge and the two stoppers from Huddersfield (post TRU) form the metro service to the airport via Castlefield? The 4 fast TPE services wouldn’t be there coming in from the east, as NPR would be taking on those.

 

[daodao]

Also - how would people feel about an elevated tram-metro-thing down some of the very wide roads in south Manchester?

Princess Road for example, an elevated option is considerably cheaper than a tunneled metro and much less disruptive to surface activities than trying to put a tram down the street.

I suppose the biggest question would be whether the set back of the housing is sufficient for light/privacy etc. Although Princess Road does have the advantage that for most of it's length there is not housing hard up against it on both sides - so I suppose it could slew to the non-housing side.

Princess Road as far south as Southern Cemetery was formerly a dual carriageway with a central reservation used by Manchester's first generation tramways until 1947. The tramway was curtailed at Southern Cemetery due to an abrupt reversal of policy in 1929-30 by the new tramway general manager, and so it was never extended to Wythenshawe. 85 years later a tramway has been built to Wythenshawe via a different route, but using in part the median strip of Mauldeth Road West, which had also been designed for an express tramway to Sale, but never built.

The median strip on Princess Road remained for many years after closure of the tramway, but was removed to widen the carriageway roughly when the M56 was built, as the A5103 then became the main road into central Manchester from the south. There is relatively little housing along Princess Road (there are a lot of playing fields and allotments), and Wythenshawe is now served by an alternative tramway, so there is now no point in considering building any form of light rail route along Princess Road. There is already a tram stop (mis-named Withington) where Princess Road crosses the ex-South District railway line (now the East Didsbury Metrolink line) on a bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blackpools terminate at Vic, as should the TfW and Scotlands.

Terninal capacity from the west is key. A solution needs to be found otherwise the improvements that are needed to be seen cant be delivered.

I agree, hence my proposed rebuild of Vic into a proper main station rather than what Liverpool Central would be like if you set something on fire on the platform.

There is space where you could add a couple of west facing bays to Vic but they'd be miles from anything and about as popular as Picc 13/14 or the equivalent at Muenchen Hauptbahnhof. Better to do the job properly. Make Victoria really nice to use - say with a nice, new, impressive trainshed and retail/food facilities to rival Picc and I don't think people will hate it as much. It's just a dive, and moving all those services over without massively changing it would make it as bad as Picc 13/14.

 

[Purple Orange]

I agree, hence my proposed rebuild of Vic into a proper main station rather than what Liverpool Central would be like if you set something on fire on the platform.

There is space where you could add a couple of west facing bays to Vic but they'd be miles from anything and about as popular as Picc 13/14 or the equivalent at Muenchen Hauptbahnhof. Better to do the job properly. Make Victoria really nice to use - say with a nice, new, impressive trainshed and retail/food facilities to rival Picc and I don't think people will hate it as much. It's just a dive, and moving all those services over without massively changing it would make it as bad as Picc 13/14.

How do you propose rebuilding Victoria?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Tram trains on the Mid Cheshire Line

Keep them north of Hale then.

the Scotland

That could move to HS2, as long as the paths are there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you propose rebuilding Victoria?

It's kind of predicated on the Arena being upstaged by the new Eastlands one and closing, it can then be demolished and a full size station reinstated by first building the new northern islands, then making that into a temporary station while the other half is rebuilt, then bringing it all together under a new overall roof.

At the same time rebuild Salford Central with platforms on all three routes.

 

[Purple Orange]

It's kind of predicated on the Arena being upstaged by the new Eastlands one and closing, it can then be demolished and a full size station reinstated by first building the new northern islands, then making that into a temporary station while the other half is rebuilt, then bringing it all together under a new overall roof.

At the same time rebuild Salford Central with platforms on all three routes.

There is no way the arena will close. Even if it did, it would be sold and there is every likelihood that another operator will come along to run it as an indoor arena under a business model it thinks can work. If that failed, there is every chance the land would be sold for redevelop but that doesn’t mean a larger Victoria.

The station has 4 through platforms and it could (should) be developed in to being a high capacity regional through station, with at least 18 tph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no way the arena will close. Even if it did, it would be sold and there is every likelihood that another operator will come along to run it as an indoor arena under a business model it thinks can work. If that failed, there is every chance the land would be sold for redevelop but that doesn’t mean a larger Victoria.

The station has 4 through platforms and it could (should) be developed in to being a high capacity regional through station, with at least 18 tph.

Then it'll be just like Castlefield. It needs at least another two through platforms or as a minimum west facing bays.

Why, in this country, are we unable to accept that it is of benefit to spend money simply for resilience? That's in essence the entire Swiss operating model - design the service pattern then design and implement the ideal infrastructure so it operates reliably.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why, in this country, are we unable to accept that it is of benefit to spend money simply for resilience?

Indeed. No-one ever seems to want to pay for a snowplough that might well sit idle on the 300 and odd days a year that it doesn't snow!

 

[HSTEd]

Why, in this country, are we unable to accept that it is of benefit to spend money simply for resilience?

Because every pound spent on "resilience" is a pound that can't be spent on actually improving service quality 99% of the time!

Additionally, I just used Nottingham to work out what the minimum width for a road to have a tramway on it, and its about 11.8m for a single track tramway whilst preserving road access, and given the increased width of Manchester Trams we'd be looking at about 12m.

So if we were willing to split trams onto adjacent streets it rather increases our options in bottlenecks.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's kind of predicated on the Arena being upstaged by the new Eastlands one and closing, it can then be demolished and a full size station reinstated by first building the new northern islands, then making that into a temporary station while the other half is rebuilt, then bringing it all together under a new overall roof.

This of course relies on Eastlands being built and then upstaging the AO Arena. Manchester Council could wake up tomorrow and decide that they don't want 2 arenas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This of course relies on Eastlands being built and then upstaging the AO Arena. Manchester Council could wake up tomorrow and decide that they don't want 2 arenas.

If they did, building Eastlands and closing the one over Victoria, which is old and dated, would be best.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If they did, building Eastlands and closing the one over Victoria, which is old and dated, would be best.

So you're relying on the AO Arena immediately closing upon the opening of the Eastlands Arena? Yeah, I don't see that happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you're relying on the AO Arena immediately closing upon the opening of the Eastlands Arena? Yeah, I don't see that happening.

No, but I think it will close in due course. The demand for large arenas is fairly low as there aren't that many acts that will fill one, particularly now music is tending away from supergroups and becoming a bit more democratised. As one example, the opening of the new Wembley has killed the MK Bowl pretty much stone dead.

But either way, it is not feasible to turn both Castlefield and Victoria into Thameslink a likes, even if NPR is built. You still need a west facing regional terminus of sorts. You can do it to one of them, but not both.

 

[Purple Orange]

Then it'll be just like Castlefield. It needs at least another two through platforms or as a minimum west facing bays.

Why, in this country, are we unable to accept that it is of benefit to spend money simply for resilience? That's in essence the entire Swiss operating model - design the service pattern then design and implement the ideal infrastructure so it operates reliably.

I think the point of view this needs to be tackled from is on a basis of the arena staying and Victoria not being expanded. A form of Thameslink needs to happen through Castlefield and Victoria, but perhaps it will never be as intense.

Can anything be learned from the Dublin DART+ proposals where the network is expanding to cover several lines in to the city, with tracks sharing line space with long distance services too? The network started with one line and a couple of branches at each end, with 6 tph running through the core.

Could this be applied to Victoria? Perhaps post TRU and NPR, no fast services run through Victoria, and could we see 12 tph run? For example on both the Rochdale line and Stalybridge line, you get 4 stoppers and 2 semi-fast?