How can trains be prevented from leaving early?

[northwichcat]

I noticed Northern re-timed the 22:48 Chester-Manchester services for yesterday and today due to Forest Live at Delamere Forest. However, yesterday the re-timed service departed Delamere 6 minutes earlier than scheduled and was 7 minutes early leaving Mobberley. As this was the last train hopefully most people turned up at the normal time unaware the service was supposed to be re-timed to run later. How can occurrences like this be prevented? Anyone using an online journey planner to check the train times yesterday could have turned up on time and missed the last train, which is not a good situation to be in when no stations between Chester and Stockport are staffed at that time.

EDIT: Just noticed the train I was referring to sat at Altrincham for 6 minutes and then departed at the correct time. With Altrincham being the first station after Delamere to have CIS maybe the solution is to have CIS at all stations?

 

[Qwerty133]

A clock face timetable with no 2/3 mins different on every hour would definitely be a start, as a lot of these incidents probably occur due to staff thinking the departure is the earlier time not the later time.

 

[muz379]

I think in this case its just due to a one off temporary local timetable change and the guard has not looked at his diagram just gone by the usual time he leaves those stations .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think in this case its just due to a one off temporary local timetable change and the guard has not looked at his diagram just gone by the usual time he leaves those stations .

he should have got an stp diagram, so I am wondering if he was just given his normal diagram instead as Normally if a diagram is stp's we obviously
pay more attention to it

 

[PermitToTravel]

Holding the doors or standing in front of the train would have the desired effect.

As of course might a quick word with the guard.

 

[muz379]

he should have got an stp diagram, so I am wondering if he was just given his normal diagram instead as Normally if a diagram is stp's we obviously
pay more attention to it

Yeah probably not given the proper diagram , or forgot halfway through the job that it is an stp job especially if it was so simillar to another job .

 

[34D]

Surely rather than printed diagrams rail staff have access to c c l d b (staff live departures) on their smart phones?

 

[Tomnick]

As well as printed diagrams (if at all), surely? The live departure boards (didn't realise it was a rude word) won't tell them what trains they're meant to be working, where they get relieved and all the rest...!

It wouldn't be the first time that an STP alteration hasn't been picked up in the diagrams, if indeed that's what's happened. One of our trains - ECS in this case - has been fairly regularly retimed to accommodate an engineering train over the last few months. On more than one occasion, we've all patiently waited until it finally moves at its WTT departure time (on the other occasions, the driver's just departed as soon as the signal has cleared, disregarding his booked departure time!).

 

[306024]

Different TOCs use different systems for advising their train crew of STP alterations. Some use software called SHEILA (don't ask why it's called that) which gives each train crew a daily schedule of all the trains they work on that particular diagram, on paper. Providing the train planners have done their job correctly it picks up all STP alterations and saves the train crew having to wade through pages of a special traffic notice.

Surely rather than printed diagrams rail staff have access to c c l d b (staff live departures) on their smart phones?

Drivers are not allowed to have their phone on in the cab, so that is a no-no.

 

[jon0844]

No train (or bus for that matter) should ever run early, but I do feel for some late night passengers on FCC a few years back where a temporary timetable for engineering work resulted in some trains having to wait 10 minutes or more at stations like Potters Bar. Some didn't, but most did, and when you want to get home at midnight it must be painful for both passengers and driver to sit around for no obvious reason. I believe the timings had been made with the previous assumption some part of the route was going to be bus replacement, but then the train ran normally.

 

[muz379]

Surely rather than printed diagrams rail staff have access to c c l d b (staff live departures) on their smart phones?

This is susceptible to the same problems printed diagrams have and that is some people wont look at them leading to things like what could have possibly happened in the OP's post

 

[northwichcat]

I think in this case its just due to a one off temporary local timetable change and the guard has not looked at his diagram just gone by the usual time he leaves those stations .

In this case it is but it's not unheard of for trains to depart intermediate stations a couple of minutes early even when it's the usual timetable.

As of course might a quick word with the guard.

If it's a packed 2 x 142, 142+150/156 or 150/1+150/156 combination then that might be a bit hard to do!

 

[Ibex]

Surely the easier option than messing around with public / working timetables would just be to make sure there are visible clocks on platforms, and that all train crew / dispatchers have radioed controlled watches which are correct - and of course that they actually check them.

Simple solution?

 

[rebmcr]

Surely the easier option than messing around with public / working timetables would just be to make sure there are visible clocks on platforms, and that all train crew / dispatchers have radioed controlled watches which are correct - and of course that they actually check them.

Simple solution?

No, you've completely missed the point.

 

[Skimble19]

Surely the easier option than messing around with public / working timetables would just be to make sure there are visible clocks on platforms, and that all train crew / dispatchers have radioed controlled watches which are correct - and of course that they actually check them.

Simple solution?

Even radio controlled watches aren't entirely accurate, some times there can be five of us all with company issued radio watches showing slightly different times..

 

[AngusH]

If money* was no object:

Have a special indicator on the platform driven by the scheduling/timetable system that indicates when the train can depart.

I seem to remember clear to depart (?) indicators are used in some large stations anyway. But tie it in to the timetable system as well, so it can't signal departure until both the dispatcher has approved AND the timetable has been met.

Maybe with a countdown timer for the driver's use as well, and most importantly, for passengers to estimate whether they've enough time left to buy a cup of coffee from the stand.


[* this is probably impractical on several other levels too]


Alternatively if there are signals at the platform, don't change them to green until the correct time.


I suspect on the whole that technical improvements are probably too expensive relative to the actual improvement that they would make.

 

[DJL]

Maybe with a countdown timer for the driver's use as well, and most importantly, for passengers to estimate whether they've enough time left to buy a cup of coffee from the stand.

Isn't that what they do in Japan?

 

[notadriver]

I've noticed on ATO operated tube lines the display has a countdown to departure. I believe there is something similar on the Paris metro too.

As an interesting aside Eurostar trains frequently leave a few minutes ahead of schedule.

 

[notadriver]

If money* was no object:


Alternatively if there are signals at the platform, don't change them to green until the correct time.

This system is I believe in use on London Underground but impractical to use on main line trains.

 

[Tomnick]

It's great - all these wonderful solutions just looking for a problem to solve! Lots of solutions, no real problem...

 

[7Pinza]

I went to a concert at Delamere last year and camped at a site close to the station. Walking away from the concert towards the car parks and station, I saw what must have been the last train go past, and ten minutes later at the station quite a lot of confused people querying where the last train to Manchester was - perhaps a similar thing had happened then.

 

[Tom B]

A local bus company printed the drivers running board on yellow paper if it was altered from the norm in order to wake them up. Perhaps something similar if the staff are confused?

Would somebody at a control room somewhere not notice that the train was reporting as being early and hold it at the next station?

How would a passenger get home if they were left stranded at an unstaffed station, with nobody to organise a taxi on account, and perhaps only a premium rate phone number on display (if anyone answers it)?

 

[causton]

How would a passenger get home if they were left stranded at an unstaffed station, with nobody to organise a taxi on account, and perhaps only a premium rate phone number on display (if anyone answers it)?

In this situation I'm pretty sure it would be rare not to find a help point... (if Teeside Airport has one, I'm sure pretty much most stations do )

 

[Crossover]

To be fair, going back to an earlier post, I've seen trains at stations round by me in Yorkshire that have a full PIS system have trains despatched early by a minute or so!

 

[northwichcat]

As an interesting aside Eurostar trains frequently leave a few minutes ahead of schedule.

Eurostar is a bit more like an airline though where passengers can't just turn up 5 minutes before departure and expect to be allowed to board.

 

[Starmill]

Eurostar is a bit more like an airline though where passengers can't just turn up 5 minutes before departure and expect to be allowed to board.

Indeed. Because of the boarding policy, Virgin services can sometimes leave Euston a minute or more early.

 

[northwichcat]

no real problem...

Trains leaving minutes early isn't a problem even though Northern only warn the doors may close up to 30 seconds before the departure time?

 

[Starmill]

It's great - all these wonderful solutions just looking for a problem to solve! Lots of solutions, no real problem...

Trains leaving minutes early isn't a problem even though Northern only warn the doors may close up to 30 seconds before the departure time?

Of course it isn't a problem! The railway is perfect, don'tcha know?

 

[Tomnick]

It's an occasional issue, yes, and any simple ways of minimising the opportunity for error are to be welcomed. It's hardly a problem on a scale that'd justify some of the solutions proposed here though!

 

[455driver]

Trains leaving minutes early isn't a problem even though Northern only warn the doors may close up to 30 seconds before the departure time?

How many trains left stations today?
How many of those left 'early'?
So no, not really a problem in the grand scheme of things!