How are XC coping not doing ticket checks?

[Starmill]

You can transfer between all platforms inside the gates at the 'B' end.

 

[Mojo]

The New street barriers are particularly annoying since they require you to exit and then re-enter when moving between platforms. They have designed what could have been a fine open station and then despoiled it.

Only if you interchange at the ‘a’ end of the station, you can interchange between all platforms using the staircases at the ‘b’ end without having to pass through a gateline.

 

[Chris M]

RANT ALERT:-

The worst things about automatic barriers is when the staff who are supposed to be supervising them, and assisting passengers (like myself) holding tickets which do not operate the barriers, are chatting to each other instead of concentrating on their work.

This has caused me to miss a train on one occasion (yes, Birmingham Snow Hill, I'm looking at you).

London Victoria. According to Southern, I should have known that my valid ticket from London Victoria to Chichester would not open the gate nearest the train to Chichester, known where to find a member of staff (on a different gateline) to show my ticket too and planned to arrive at the station with enough time to wait for them to finish chatting to their colleague before assisting me.

Nah, the worst thing is when people who have normal tickets which would operate the gate automatically, stand in the queue where there is a member of staff operating the gate. I have to use this queue since All LIne Rovers rarely open the gates. I shouldnt have to get stuck behind these idiots!!!!

I usually have a normal ticket which will operate the gate, but because I very often need to keep my ticket (expenses, delay repay, personal records, etc) I queue up to speak to the human rather than risk it being retained by the barrier.

 

[6Gman]

Very interesting thread. Presenting a different point of view: ticket barriers in the Netherlands are never staffed (at least I have never encountered any barrier staff), evem though passengers might hold tickets that don't the work barriere (e.g. DB paper tickets without a barcode). There is a help point at every gate though, where someone opens the gate if you ask them to (had such an incident at Sittard once).

But how long does it take the "someone" to respond?

 

[Mugby]

To return to the original point of the thread, I made quite a few observations on Saturday.

All of the XC services I saw were double Voyagers, presumably with one TM for both. There were still cancellations to the intended hourly service on the NE/SW route and the 13.03 from BHM to NCL just got later and later due to "Overcrowding caused by cancellation of a previous service"

I would imagine that dealing with a train which was packed solid and trying to pacify people who thought they had reservations but hadn't, trying to answer queries about connections etc. trying to dispatch trains at stations when they were so crowded that people couldn't get on or off - all of this must have made ticket checking rather low priority on the day.

 

[221129]

And expect the same tomorrow...

 

[Starmill]

presumably with one TM for both.

Really?

 

[Minilad]

To return to the original point of the thread, I made quite a few observations on Saturday.

All of the XC services I saw were double Voyagers, presumably with one TM for both. There were still cancellations to the intended hourly service on the NE/SW route and the 13.03 from BHM to NCL just got later and later due to "Overcrowding caused by cancellation of a previous service"

I would imagine that dealing with a train which was packed solid and trying to pacify people who thought they had reservations but hadn't, trying to answer queries about connections etc. trying to dispatch trains at stations when they were so crowded that people couldn't get on or off - all of this must have made ticket checking rather low priority on the day.

There would have been one "TM" per service not per unit.
It wouldn't have mattered if the train had been almost empty the "TM's" working the trains would not have any ticket training so would not have even attempted a ticket check

 

[Mugby]

There would have been one "TM" per service not per unit.

That's what I meant, it's why I said one TM for both, not one TM for each!

 

[Minilad]

That's what I meant, it's why I said one TM for both, not one TM for each!

Indeed you did. Sorry for the misreading. Second point still stands though

 

[221129]

There would have been one "TM" per service not per unit.
It wouldn't have mattered if the train had been almost empty the "TM's" working the trains would not have any ticket training so would not have even attempted a ticket check

In fairness it would depend who is working it. I know of several people out today who are ticket trained and have taken out machines... and then we also have the RSS' out and about I would imagine.

 

[92002]

Couldn’t find anything via search.

I was thinking about Glasgow Central (High Level) ISTR no barriers on platform 1&2, BCBW, it could be they were just open when I got there. It was very late. (The hour not the train ).

Strangely it was XC who objected to the installation of barriers at P1&2. Nowadays XC leave from other platforms with barriers, where Scot-Rail staff open the barriers for TPE and XC trains. Neither companies have staff at the station. So each rely on train ticket checks.

 

[MG11]

I tend to travel with XC on evening services out of Derby, and the Train Manager is always very good at coming through and checking tickets. What XC need though, is more Revenue Protection Officers. They have recruited more staff at New Street for it, I think called Revenue Support Specialists but there needs to be staff who specialise in interviews under caution and byelaw offences at all ends of the network. Little gaps between Chesterfield and Sheffield, where the TM might not be able to get around (safety related duties) need to be closed. The problem is not just XC isolated though. East Midlands Trains are very good at Revenue Protection, but even that could be improved on the services out of London of a late evening.

 

[221129]

I tend to travel with XC on evening services out of Derby, and the Train Manager is always very good at coming through and checking tickets. What XC need though, is more Revenue Protection Officers. They have recruited more staff at New Street for it, I think called Revenue Support Specialists but there needs to be staff who specialise in interviews under caution and byelaw offences at all ends of the network. Little gaps between Chesterfield and Sheffield, where the TM might not be able to get around (safety related duties) need to be closed. The problem is not just XC isolated though. East Midlands Trains are very good at Revenue Protection, but even that could be improved on the services out of London of a late evening.

Please stop posting things that are untrue and your unrealistic suggestions and pie in the sky ideas.

 

[infobleep]

New Malden. Example of only one entrance having barriers. Wonder if that will change in time.

 

[MG11]

Please stop posting things that are untrue and your unrealistic suggestions and pie in the sky ideas.

Why would it be a "pie in the sky idea" for CrossCountry to increase Revenue Protection staff? Their sister company, Northern have done so.

 

[yorkie]

Why would it be a "pie in the sky idea" for CrossCountry to increase Revenue Protection staff? Their sister company, Northern have done so.

Staffing costs are considerable. You want more staff "who specialise in interviews under caution and byelaw offences at all ends of the network", this will cause considerable additional costs as well as the initial staffing costs, such as the costs of reviewing all the evidence you have gathered and putting all these people through the courts. If the company prosecutes people for byelaw offences, they make no money from that. Any fine imposed by a court does not go to XC. It would also generate significant badwill and bad publicity for the company.

In fact, as it is, XC do not have sufficient resources to undertake the necessary checks on cases that are going through the courts, by prosecuting innocent passengers who held valid tickets (e.g. a holder of a +via London ticket is being prosecuted for taking the cheaper Not via London route). You propose making this bad situation even worse.

 

[221129]

Why would it be a "pie in the sky idea" for CrossCountry to increase Revenue Protection staff? Their sister company, Northern have done so.

I wasn't just referring to this thread. If XC thought there was a need to increase revenue protection they would. The clue is they obviously dont. This would tally with my experiences of assisting revenue checks on these trains.

 

[DarloRich]

Why would it be a "pie in the sky idea" for CrossCountry to increase Revenue Protection staff? Their sister company, Northern have done so.

because it costs money and potentially lots of money to introduce. Would the costs be recovered?

 

[221129]

because it costs money and potentially lots of money to introduce. Would the costs be recovered?

In my experience not anytime quickly.

 

[MG11]

Staffing costs are considerable. You want more staff "who specialise in interviews under caution and byelaw offences at all ends of the network", this will cause considerable additional costs as well as the initial staffing costs, such as the costs of reviewing all the evidence you have gathered and putting all these people through the courts. If the company prosecutes people for byelaw offences, they make no money from that. Any fine imposed by a court does not go to XC. It would also generate significant badwill and bad publicity for the company.

In fact, as it is, XC do not have sufficient resources to undertake the necessary checks on cases that are going through the courts, by prosecuting innocent passengers who held valid tickets (e.g. a holder of a +via London ticket is being prosecuted for taking the cheaper Not via London route). You propose making this bad situation even worse.

because it costs money and potentially lots of money to introduce. Would the costs be recovered?

Most other TOCs seem to think that the costs can be recovered, because they are employing more and more Revenue Protection Officers. RPOs are a great deterrent for fare evaders, and I've noticed more of the general public becoming aware of their responsibility to buy a ticket on routes where RPOs are prominent.

 

[221129]

Most other TOCs seem to think that the costs can be recovered, because they are employing more and more Revenue Protection Officers. RPOs are a great deterrent for fare evaders, and I've noticed more of the general public becoming aware of their responsibility to buy a ticket on routes where RPOs are prominent.

Can you provide an example of an Intercity TOC doing that recently please?

 

[DarloRich]

Most other TOCs seem to think that the costs can be recovered, because they are employing more and more Revenue Protection Officers. RPOs are a great deterrent for fare evaders, and I've noticed more of the general public becoming aware of their responsibility to buy a ticket on routes where RPOs are prominent.

you are not comparing like with like. Have you found an intercity TOC doing this, other than EMT?

 

[yorkie]

I'll pre-empt MG11's reply; I reckon MG11 will cite VTEC as an example. However I've rarely ever seen one, and I believe they reduced their numbers a while back? I can't find the thread now.

As for the Northern revenue staff, MG11 are you referring to the in-house revenue collectors who assist Guard on busy trains at peak times, as mentioned in the Huddersfield-Penistone thread? (see quote from a post by @Adam0984 below) If so, that's absolutely not the same thing as you were suggesting for XC.

During the morning up until lunchtime I believe most have an assistant revenue collector who can wander up and down collecting fares plus the guard can do as many as they can between letting people on and off

 

[DarloRich]

I'll pre-empt MG11's reply; I reckon MG11 will cite VTEC as an example. However I've rarely ever seen one, and I believe they reduced their numbers a while back? I can't find the thread now.

As for the Northern revenue staff, MG11 are you referring to the in-house revenue collectors who assist Guard on busy trains at peak times, as mentioned in the Huddersfield-Penistone thread? (see quote below)

If so, that's absolutely not the same thing as you were suggesting for XC.

I have had revenue protection officers check tickets on EMT but feel they are more focused on local ticket matters rather than my Bedford - Derby open return.

 

[MG11]

East Midlands Trains are a company who has been increasing their number of RPOs, yes. I wasn't aware that VTEC have upped their RPO numbers, but I am not surprised. Virgin Trains West Coast also, not too many years ago ran a recrument scheme where persons who had a bad start in life, were trained up to be RPOs. TPE now also have RPOs at Manchester Picadilly *I think that was a DFT initiative though*. I'm not trying to antagonise people here. I don't think innocent people should be prosecuted either. I am just saying that IMO, it would be a good idea for XC to introduce more RPOs on board, to minimise experiences like the OP's. If an RPO knows their restrictions, validity etc, then there is no need for people with valid tickets to to be prosecuted. All of the RPOs I have met have had excellent knowledge on validity.

 

[221129]

East Midlands Trains are a company who has been increasing their number of RPOs, yes. I wasn't aware that VTEC have upped their RPO numbers, but I am not surprised. Virgin Trains West Coast also, not too many years ago ran a recrument scheme where persons who had a bad start in life, were trained up to be RPOs. TPE now also have RPOs at Manchester Picadilly *I think that was a DFT initiative though*. I'm not trying to antagonise people here. I don't think innocent people should be prosecuted either. I am just saying that IMO, it would be a good idea for XC to introduce more RPOs on board, to minimise experiences like the OP's. If an RPO knows their restrictions, validity etc, then there is no need for people with valid tickets to to be prosecuted. All of the RPOs I have met have had excellent knowledge on validity.

You have very little clue about what you are trying to discuss and it shows.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The official narrative from RDG / DFT is that £250 million a year is lost in fare evasion. Now you could recruit and pay hundreds of RPO's or whatever you choose to call them to catch fare Dodgers / act as a deterrent on a national non TOC specific level and pay for them comfortably out of the increased revenue. But this doesn't happen, why? It's been discussed at DFT level but they get cold feet as there will be some transistional costs from start up that they won't underwrite ( the working assumption is that they believe the £250 million figure is correct).

On the other side of the coin there's probably £250 million year plus being extracted from the travelling public who use TVM's , click on Internet without knowing what there doing. Don't know of split ticket options, railcards etc etc.

 

[Mugby]

The fact that Northern have apparently done it recently must be because the new franchise only started a few months ago.

Surely XC wouldn't even consider increasing their staffing levels and costs at this late stage in the current franchise?

 

[MG11]

You have very little clue about what you are trying to discuss and it shows.

I know more than you, I have been shortlisted out of 80 applicants for the role of Revenue Protection Officer and spoken with Revenue Protection managers in great detail!!