Hope Valley line blocked?

[Bovverboy]

The Hope Valley line (eastbound) appears to be blocked, possibly by the 0418 Peak Forest Cemex to Ely Papworth Sidings, which doesn't seem to have got any further than Earles Sidings SB.
The 0547 Picc-Sheffield has been terminated at Hazel Grove and the 0638 and 0711 cancelled, as has the 0712 ex-Sheffield. TPE (Cleethorpes) appear to be going via Huddersfield.

 

[Spartacus]

Loco loss of power, rescue loco should be there soon.

 

[_toommm_]

Broken down train at Hathersage, with a rescue loco expected from Leeds around 08:00

 

[Bovverboy]

The EMR 0647 Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich has gone normal route after Stockport, so someone must be expecting it to get through.

 

[Bovverboy]

The failed train was the 0345 Tunstead Sidings to Small Heath, the Ely Papworth was stuck behind it. The Small Heath passed Grindleford at 0805 (211L) followed by the Ely Papworth at 0820 (164L). The EMR should be past the problem area no more than 10L.

 

[Killingworth]

Broken down train at Hathersage, with a rescue loco expected from Leeds around 08:00

Seems a long way to have had to come, but at least it's done the job.

 

[Bovverboy]

As a consequence of the cancellation of the 0638 & 0711 ex-Picc stoppers (and the fact that the service is operated from the Manchester end) the return 0833 and 0914 ex-Sheffield were also cancelled, in addition to the 0712 mentioned in post #1. So the first Hope Valley stopper of the day departed Sheffield at 1020 (scheduled 1014), despite there being no impediment to running westbound trains - well, apart from the obvious absence of rolling stock, of course.
If the Hope Valley line is blocked at Hathersage, or wherever, is there reason to not run services between Piccadilly and, say, Chinley (annual patronage c.122,000)? In particular, the 0711 ex-Picc could have run to Chinley (arr. 0748) and done 0756 Chinley - Picc (v.0712 ex-Sheffield).
Is the problem of running to Chinley the fact that people would then demand onward conveyance towards Sheffield, something that brings its own challenges? If it is, trains could run ECS to Chinley. Am I missing something?
I appreciate that EMR trains have booked Chinley calls at 0701 and 0803, and don't doubt that they are routinely the trains of choice for anyone travelling to Piccadilly, but they're not a lot of good for passengers wanting the New Mills line. And what about passengers waiting at New Mills Central and beyond?

 

[Killingworth]

As a consequence of the cancellation of the 0638 & 0711 ex-Picc stoppers (and the fact that the service is operated from the Manchester end) the return 0833 and 0914 ex-Sheffield were also cancelled, in addition to the 0712 mentioned in post #1. So the first Hope Valley stopper of the day departed Sheffield at 1020 (scheduled 1014), despite there being no impediment to running westbound trains - well, apart from the obvious absence of rolling stock, of course.
If the Hope Valley line is blocked at Hathersage, or wherever, is there reason to not run services between Piccadilly and, say, Chinley (annual patronage c.122,000)? In particular, the 0711 ex-Picc could have run to Chinley (arr. 0748) and done 0756 Chinley - Picc (v.0712 ex-Sheffield).
Is the problem of running to Chinley the fact that people would then demand onward conveyance towards Sheffield, something that brings its own challenges? If it is, trains could run ECS to Chinley. Am I missing something?
I appreciate that EMR trains have booked Chinley calls at 0701 and 0803, and don't doubt that they are routinely the trains of choice for anyone travelling to Piccadilly, but they're not a lot of good for passengers wanting the New Mills line. And what about passengers waiting at New Mills Central and beyond?

The 7.11 possibly could have run as far as Chinley, but we don't know what path the relief locomotive required from Leeds - or do we? This is the failed train; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H37061/2019-11-25/detailed

Changing services at short notice may have bigger knock on operational side effects than outright cancellation.

Despite blocking the eastbound Hope Valley line for three and a half hours, causing serious inconvenience to many passengers throughout the morning as services were cancelled, diverted and delayed, it arrived at its final destination only 37 minutes late. That was a lot better than many hundreds of unhappy travellers.

It wasn't helped today by TPE's 9.11 Sheffield - Manchester Airport departure apparently failing there when Northerns 8.33 and 9.14 had both been cancelled due to failure to get through from Piccadilly on incoming services. I bet the EMR 9.41 was busy!

 

[Bovverboy]

The 7.11 possibly could have run as far as Chinley, but we don't know what path the relief locomotive required from Leeds - or do we? This is the failed train; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H37061/2019-11-25/detailed

A rescue locomotive travelling from Leeds to Hathersage (and then presumably being required to attach to the front of the stricken train, to boot) is hardly likely to have been routed via Chinley.

It wasn't helped today by TPE's 9.11 Sheffield - Manchester Airport departure apparently failing there when Northerns 8.33 and 9.14 had both been cancelled due to failure to get through from Piccadilly on incoming services. I bet the EMR 9.41 was busy!

The TPE 0911 Sheffield - Manchester Airport (0726 ex-Cleethorpes) was terminated due to no crew being available, presumably a consequence of the previous two eastbound services having been diverted via Huddersfield. The train which would have been required to take the most strain in consequence would have been the 0746 EM Nottingham - Liverpool (in the event terminated at Manchester Piccadilly) which didn't depart Sheffield until 0914, 33L.

 

[M60lad]

That's the 2nd time within as many days a freight train has blocked the Hope Valley, on Saturday morning another freight train broke down at Edale causing the closure of Hope Valley.

TPE were diverting via Huddersfield and Wakefield Westgate from Manchester
EMR were either terminating at Stockport or Oxford Road from Liverpool and Sheffield from Nottingham
Northern were terminating at New Mills Central from what I could gather from Manchester with no services obviously from Sheffield

 

[Ianno87]

The EMR 0647 Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich has gone normal route after Stockport, so someone must be expecting it to get through.

Do EMR drivers even sign any other route other than the Hope Valley (e.g. via Macclesfield to get to the Stoke-Uttoxeter-Derby route?)

 

[2L70]

Do EMR drivers even sign any other route other than the Hope Valley (e.g. via Macclesfield to get to the Stoke-Uttoxeter-Derby route?)

No, when it was Central was a lot easier as Crewe Depot signed the North Staffs, Liverpool - Birmingham and Liverpool - Nottingham.

Now they’d need a route conductor Crewe - Stockport.

 

[Bovverboy]

That's the 2nd time within as many days a freight train has blocked the Hope Valley, on Saturday morning another freight train broke down at Edale causing the closure of Hope Valley.

According to RTT, it was not a freight which expired on Saturday, it was the 0653 TPE Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes, which came to a stop at Edale at pretty well its booked time of 0747. It eventually continued ECS to Sheffield at 1035.

TPE were diverting via Huddersfield and Wakefield Westgate from Manchester

The 0753 and 0853 ex-Airport were diverted, the latter being terminated short at Barnetby.

EMR were either terminating at Stockport or Oxford Road from Liverpool and Sheffield from Nottingham

The 0647 ex-Liverpool was held at Chinley (probably) for approximately two and a half hours, then allowed to continue. The 0747 was indeed terminated at Stockport. The 0847 was held at Oxford Road for c.30 minutes and at Stockport for a further c.10, then allowed to continue when it was known that the failed TPE was moving.

Northern were terminating at New Mills Central from what I could gather from Manchester with no services obviously from Sheffield

The 0749 and 0849 ex-Picc were terminated at New Mills Central, the 0949 was held there for 14 minutes, then allowed to continue. It seems likely that this latter train would have been advertised as terminating at NMC, prior to its arrival there. The 0914 and 1014 ex-Sheffield were cancelled.

 

[Bovverboy]

Severe delays on the Hope Valley line on Saturday continued well into the evening. A particularly notable delay affected the 1147 EMR Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street, already half an hour late by Totley Tunnel East, it was delayed a further hour between there and Grindleford due to 'an obstruction on the line'.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It doesn't help that Northern are also cancelling most of their Hope Valley stoppers on Sundays due to driver shortages. All in all the residents of the Hope Valley are getting a pretty poor service at the moment.

 

[Killingworth]

Severe delays on the Hope Valley line on Saturday continued well into the evening. A particularly notable delay affected the 1147 EMR Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street, already half an hour late by Totley Tunnel East, it was delayed a further hour between there and Grindleford due to 'an obstruction on the line'.

1R74 started late from Nottingham, left Sheffield at 13.02 (21 minutes late) and was indeed halted between Totley Tunnel East and Grindleford. No current info on what thatb obstruction was.

TPEs 13.14 left at 13.26 and was 68 minutes late by Grindleford.

Northerns 13.14 left at 13.23 and was also delayed standing at Dore for 25 minutes and at Totley Tunnel East for a further 20+ minutes.

A passenger was taken ill on a train near Dore that afternoon (see extract from today's Sheffield Star), so all ways round a bad day on this line with knock on effects across the north and possibly beyond.

It was only on Friday that a Pacer lost a roof panel in Totley Tunnel causing long delays.

I'm sure a redoubled track through Dore & Totley and the new Bamford loop would have helped, but that's the subject of at least two other threads! There are so many things that can go wrong with old trains running on tracks designed and built in Victorian times.

 

[Bovverboy]

A passenger was taken ill on a train near Dore that afternoon (see extract from today's Sheffield Star)

View attachment 70837

For 'delays of up to 30 minutes' read 'delays of up to 90 minutes'.

 

[LowLevel]

No, when it was Central was a lot easier as Crewe Depot signed the North Staffs, Liverpool - Birmingham and Liverpool - Nottingham.

Now they’d need a route conductor Crewe - Stockport.

Oft quoted fake news. Crewe depot never signed Liverpool to Nottingham. 5M06 to transport trains and crews from the East Mids to Liverpool has been running for 25 years. The only depot that signed Liverpool to Nottingham via Sheffield was Nottingham until EMT opened Derby who work a couple of trains a day.

 

[Bovverboy]

That's the 2nd time within as many days a freight train has blocked the Hope Valley, on Saturday morning another freight train broke down at Edale causing the closure of Hope Valley.

EMR were either terminating at Stockport or Oxford Road from Liverpool and Sheffield from Nottingham

I can't find any sign of an ex-Nottingham train being terminated at Sheffield, but, through late running, one was terminated at Manchester Piccadilly and one at Oxford Road.
EMR seemed to do particularly well in managing to continue to despatch trains from Nottingham, when trains were getting back from Liverpool anything up to several hours late. I suppose it would have helped that crews never do more than one Liverpool in a shift (and, therefore, EMR shouldn't have run out of crews) and that Nottingham is the location of the principal rolling stock depot for the route.

 

[Skymonster]

According to RTT, it was not a freight which expired on Saturday, it was the 0653 TPE Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes, which came to a stop at Edale at pretty well its booked time of 0747. It eventually continued ECS to Sheffield at 1035

No it was a DB Cargo 66 that expired on Saturday as it was about to move its train into Earls, blocking the eastbound track. A 60 was sent to remove the blockage. TPE and EMT were stopped behind while several westbound were cancelled (I was on a grossly overloaded EMT 158 pair going westbound past the site).

 

[Bovverboy]

It doesn't help that Northern are also cancelling most of their Hope Valley stoppers on Sundays due to driver shortages. All in all the residents of the Hope Valley are getting a pretty poor service at the moment.

Only four round trips were cancelled on Sunday just gone, 24/11/19. Out of a scheduled fifteen, four round trips cancelled certainly isn't good, especially bearing in mind the nature of the route, and the fact that two of the round trips cancelled were successive - but it certainly isn't 'most'. It was the previous Sunday when two-thirds of the scheduled journeys were cancelled.

 

[LowLevel]

No it was a DB Cargo 66 that expired on Saturday as it was about to move its train into Earls, blocking the eastbound track. A 60 was sent to remove the blockage. TPE and EMT were stopped behind while several westbound were cancelled (I was on a grossly overloaded EMT 158 pair going westbound past the site).

It was indeed. 1L05 spent 2.5 hours at Chinley, the TPE unit sat at Edale and the Northern service dried up as they were unable to get trains out east to come back west.

 

[Bovverboy]

According to RTT, it was not a freight which expired on Saturday, it was the 0653 TPE Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes, which came to a stop at Edale at pretty well its booked time of 0747. It eventually continued ECS to Sheffield at 1035.

No it was a DB Cargo 66 that expired on Saturday as it was about to move its train into Earls, blocking the eastbound track. A 60 was sent to remove the blockage. TPE and EMT were stopped behind while several westbound were cancelled (I was on a grossly overloaded EMT 158 pair going westbound past the site).

You're right, of course. I hadn't checked it out properly.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H17012/2019-11-22/detailed

 

[Killingworth]

No it was a DB Cargo 66 that expired on Saturday as it was about to move its train into Earls, blocking the eastbound track. A 60 was sent to remove the blockage. TPE and EMT were stopped behind while several westbound were cancelled (I was on a grossly overloaded EMT 158 pair going westbound past the site).

Those coal trains have failed before! Are entries from the west proving too risky because they have to reverse into Earles?

Most days there are freight locomotives on site at Earles and Buxton and to a lay person it might seem simple to deploy one fairly quickly to resolve the breakdowns that seem to occur quite often in and around this route. Bringing one down from Leeds may seem a bit drastic.

The locos are only part of this. They're fuelled and ready where they are for their next scheduled working and can't easily be commandeered for long distance relief. My understanding is that at present there are days when loaded freight services are being delayed due to a shortage of crews for booked workings so getting a driver at very short notice in a more remote location would also be difficult.

There seems to be no bi-directionally signalled stretch of track that could be used in emergencies on the route either. Once a train is blocked, that's it.

 

[Tomnick]

If there was a loco and driver at Earles, regardless of FOC, and the failed train was clear of the pointwork, then I’d imagine (and hope!) that it would’ve been used to drag the train back inside. There’s provision in the track access agreements to allow Network Rail to insist on it to clear the line.

 

[Skymonster]

If there was a loco and driver at Earles, regardless of FOC, and the failed train was clear of the pointwork, then I’d imagine (and hope!) that it would’ve been used to drag the train back inside. There’s provision in the track access agreements to allow Network Rail to insist on it to clear the line.

There were at least four Frieghtlimer 66s at Earles, but presumably no drivers on a Saturday morning. Saturday’s rescue loco, the DB 60, came from Peak Forest.

 

[Killingworth]

There were at least four Frieghtlimer 66s at Earles, but presumably no drivers on a Saturday morning. Saturday’s rescue loco, the DB 60, came from Peak Forest.

Much more logically, and not from Leeds as previously reported. To be fair, at short notice on a Saturday it's possible the driver had to come from Leeds, by car/taxi.

 

[Bovverboy]

There were at least four Frieghtlimer 66s at Earles, but presumably no drivers on a Saturday morning. Saturday’s rescue loco, the DB 60, came from Peak Forest.

Much more logically, and not from Leeds as previously reported. To be fair, at short notice on a Saturday it's possible the driver had to come from Leeds, by car/taxi.

It was yesterday morning when the rescue loco was sent from Leeds. No-one had previously said where Saturday's rescue loco had come from.

 

[Bovverboy]

As you may have gathered by now, I'm inclined to be critical of Northern's apparent policy of not missing an opportunity to stop running trains. I made the point earlier in the thread that during yesterday morning's stoppage I reckoned that trains could have operated as normal between Manchester and Chinley - but, of course, they didn't.
Same on Saturday, except that two of the scheduled Sheffield trains did run to New Mills Central, and a third, after running to New Mills Central, did then continue to Sheffield, albeit after a significant delay. The two that terminated at New Mills Central then ran ECS back to Piccadilly, this despite the fact that the dominant passenger flow at that time of day is very definitely towards Manchester rather than away from it.
The lack of trains to/from Chinley meant that there was an approximate three and a half hour gap between trains to Manchester, between 0919 (actual scheduled departure time 0854) and 1248 (actual scheduled departure time 1155) - this compares with an advertised hourly service.
At New Mills Central there is never a gap of more than thirty-six minutes between scheduled trains to Manchester, but look at these actual gaps - 0832 to 0926 (54 minutes), 0934 to 1026 (52 minutes), 1026 to 1127 (61 minutes), 1127 to 1226 (59 minutes), and 1327 to 1426 (59 minutes). In fairness, the latter two gaps were a consequence of ex-Sheffield trains running late, rather than being cancelled outright, but running 0955 and 1055 Chinley - Picc would have meant that a more or less normal service could have operated between Chinley and New Mills Central/Manchester Piccadilly up to early afternoon.

 

[LowLevel]

As you may have gathered by now, I'm inclined to be critical of Northern's apparent policy of not missing an opportunity to stop running trains. I made the point earlier in the thread that during yesterday morning's stoppage I reckoned that trains could have operated as normal between Manchester and Chinley - but, of course, they didn't.
Same on Saturday, except that two of the scheduled Sheffield trains did run to New Mills Central, and a third, after running to New Mills Central, did then continue to Sheffield, albeit after a significant delay. The two that terminated at New Mills Central then ran ECS back to Piccadilly, this despite the fact that the dominant passenger flow at that time of day is very definitely towards Manchester rather than away from it.
The lack of trains to/from Chinley meant that there was an approximate three and a half hour gap between trains to Manchester, between 0919 (actual scheduled departure time 0854) and 1248 (actual scheduled departure time 1155) - this compares with an advertised hourly service.
At New Mills Central there is never a gap of more than thirty-six minutes between scheduled trains to Manchester, but look at these actual gaps - 0832 to 0926 (54 minutes), 0934 to 1026 (52 minutes), 1026 to 1127 (61 minutes), 1127 to 1226 (59 minutes), and 1327 to 1426 (59 minutes). In fairness, the latter two gaps were a consequence of ex-Sheffield trains running late, rather than being cancelled outright, but running 0955 and 1055 Chinley - Picc would have meant that a more or less normal service could have operated between Chinley and New Mills Central/Manchester Piccadilly up to early afternoon.

They couldn't have got to Chinley on Saturday until gone 1030, 1L05 was in the way with over 100 people on board so there was no way to get a train past it to turn back.