Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Cheshire Scot]

I wasn't aware that Class 185 can use Sprinter diffs. Will TPE not benefit?

I didn't suggest they could, they are the trains which cannot take Sprinter or MU 'as trains currently on the route can either already use Sprinter (and therefore also MU) or are unable to use either Sprinter or MU. It looks like TPE will not benefit unless perhaps from the other speed changes listed by @td97 unless these too are MU differentials rather than overall line speed increases.

 

[D365]

Understood. Thanks.

 

[td97]

the other speed changes listed by @td97 unless these too are MU differentials rather than overall line speed increases.

Grindleford is 65PS/70SP to 70PS (i.e. removal of speed differential). The others are MU.

 

[Starmill]

As far as I recall the original concept was to achieve a third express passenger path each hour and an additional freight path every two hours (upgrade from 3 every two hours to 4 every two hours. As far as I understand the only 'speeding up' is a line speed increase from Hazel Grove to Edgeley Junction - from 40 to 60 - and upgrading the many Sprinter differential speeds to MU differentials which in current terms benefits nothing as trains currently on the route can either already use Sprinter (and therefore also MU) or are unable to use either Sprinter or MU. Maybe in the future something might come along which can benefit ......................... Otherwise the only benefits are the freight loops - Bamford and lengthening Dore South curve - which seem to assist in providing that extra capacity.

The doubling will likely enable 30 or 60 seconds of pathing time to come out of schedules. The journey time from Stockport to Sheffield has been slowed down by 3-4 minutes as a result of the decision to link the service up with the slot from Liverpool. The stopping services will also benefit from less pathing time and for the first time they'll be able to call at all stations every hour of the day. Performance will also improve, but only very slightly.

So it's not nothing by any means. It's just nothing like the benefits that could possibly justify £150 million capex. The main benefit will probably arise from the extra freight.

 

[zwk500]

and upgrading the many Sprinter differential speeds to MU differentials which in current terms benefits nothing as trains currently on the route can either already use Sprinter (and therefore also MU) or are unable to use either Sprinter or MU. Maybe in the future something might come along which can benefit .........................

This is a point that shouldn't be ignored - this investment isn't only for the next 5 years. TPE have other stock than 185s so a reshuffle in a few years time could be made a lot easier by the Hope Valley being available to more stock at full linespeed.

So it's not nothing by any means. It's just nothing like the benefits that could possibly justify £150 million capex. The main benefit will probably arise from the extra freight.

Reduction of consequential delays at Stockport and Sheffield will probably see that investment recouped reasonably quickly, if anybody manages to account for it properly...

 

[Killingworth]

There are at least 4 potential benefits being achieved to allow more flexibility with freight services as well as for passenger services. Others will be able to make more detailed comments, some already have.

1. Signalling changes will allow a longer train to stand at Heeley coming out of Sheffield going south or west.
2. Redoubling at Dore station removes that bottleneck in both directions.
3. Lengthening the Dore chord/curve/loop will allow freight services to 'shelter' between the MML and the Hope Valley line rather than standing on either of them for a path round.
4. The new Bamford loop will allow an eastbound aggregate or cement train to cross westbound traffic and get nearer the MML to go north or south.

Currently we may see both an aggregate and cement train released eastbound along the Hope Valley to be stymied for lack of paths onto the MML. One may be held at Dore West and the second at Grindleford before entering Totley Tunnel. A slow and fast service can quickly back up behind with other services also wanting to go west. Releasing the freights at present may unblock the Hope Valley but can very easily delay MML passenger traffic in both directions across the nation.

What we seem to have had confirmed to a local journalist today is that the project is indeed running about 6 months behind the originally intimated target completion date. That's been a fairly open secret in the area around the work for some time. The cost has gone up from £137m to £145m, although how much it has cost in planning since the late 1990s we'll never know.

Since the first local public consultations in 2013, 2015 (2) and at the public inquiry in 2016 Network Rail stated that they were providing the extra capacity but it was down to the TOCs and FOCs how they made use of it once complete. Assumptions in 2013/16 are not going to be what happens in 2024/5. At the planning stage a lot of things were anticipated, but Covid's huge effect on commuting and the swing to leisure could not have been foretold. We're still struggling to see how it all settles down but in the present financial crisis running more frequent fairly short fast trains seems to be extravagant. We must have another year to see how demand returns before detailed plans are made, but they must be being thought about now. Fewer, longer, slower, shorter routes? There's much to be considered.

Incidentally almost all the changes necessary to permit a regular clock-face hourly stopping all stations timetable were made in December. One or two issues with that, the most serious being for Sheffield bound commuters. Ever since the line first opened in 1894 there's been a stopping service from the Hope Valley arriving in Sheffield within a few minutes either side of 8.30, most recently at 8.32. Nowadays people buy houses in Marple, New Mills and Chinley so one partner can commute east and the other west. The new timetable eliminates a 90 minute gap but that train is now retimed to arrive in Sheffield at 9.05 and it isn't going down at all well. A solution may be found but probably not until 2024 at the earliest.

 

[Greybeard33]

TPE have other stock than 185s so a reshuffle in a few years time could be made a lot easier by the Hope Valley being available to more stock at full linespeed.

TPE's other diesel stock comprises 68+Mk5A sets, which also cannot use MU differentials, and 802s, needed for the ECML routes so unlikely to be used in the Hope Valley.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Incidentally almost all the changes necessary to permit a regular clock-face hourly stopping all stations timetable were made in December. One or two issues with that, the most serious being for Sheffield bound commuters. Ever since the line first opened in 1894 there's been a stopping service from the Hope Valley arriving in Sheffield within a few minutes either side of 8.30, most recently at 8.32. Nowadays people buy houses in Marple, New Mills and Chinley so one partner can commute east and the other west. The new timetable eliminates a 90 minute gap but that train is now retimed to arrive in Sheffield at 9.05 and it isn't going down at all well. A solution may be found but probably not until 2024 at the earliest.

I did wonder about that commuter service change. So we have confirmation now that a clockface 8am and 9am arrival has not been well received replacing the 8.30ish one?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Perhaps Network Rail don't know what's going on either...

Well, that would be valid news! Though perhaps everyone assumes that

 

[td97]

Well, that would be valid news! Though perhaps everyone assumes that

It seems Network Rail can account for the next month, but nothing after that! Their press release marks a different tone to the newspaper articles.

Hope Valley Railway Upgrade picks up pace in 2023

Work to remove historic bottlenecks, increase resilience and improve reliability continues on the Hope Valley Railway Upgrade as the new year begins.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Interesting to me is "platform extensions". My understanding is that only the existing Dore platform is to be extended, as Davenport and Woodsmoor were descoped early on, and many other Hope Valley stations already had extensions in 2019. I believe that is a typo.

 

[yorksrob]

It seems Network Rail can account for the next month, but nothing after that! Their press release marks a different tone to the newspaper articles.

Hope Valley Railway Upgrade picks up pace in 2023

Work to remove historic bottlenecks, increase resilience and improve reliability continues on the Hope Valley Railway Upgrade as the new year begins.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Interesting to me is "platform extensions". My understanding is that only the existing Dore platform is to be extended, as Davenport and Woodsmoor were descoped early on, and many other Hope Valley stations already had extensions in 2019. I believe that is a typo.

I'd hesitate to call Davenport or Woodsmoor "Hope Valley" stations anyway, unless they have plans to stop Hope valley services there.

 

[Killingworth]

It seems Network Rail can account for the next month, but nothing after that! Their press release marks a different tone to the newspaper articles.

Hope Valley Railway Upgrade picks up pace in 2023

Work to remove historic bottlenecks, increase resilience and improve reliability continues on the Hope Valley Railway Upgrade as the new year begins.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Interesting to me is "platform extensions". My understanding is that only the existing Dore platform is to be extended, as Davenport and Woodsmoor were descoped early on, and many other Hope Valley stations already had extensions in 2019. I believe that is a typo.

Interesting that press release is dated 9th, the same day as The Star's article. Locally we knew it was delayed 3 months from fairly early on (complications with signalling), but the original completion date was well flagged to be Summer 2023 with tidying up taking it to September, see below. More recently men working on the site have been openly talking of a 6 month delay which seems to tally with the completion date in Spring 2024 in the Star report - but is that scheme completion or completion including tidying up work? We'll have to wait and see.

I suspect Network Rail are being more cautious having previously been caught on specific details and dates. With strikes and other issues some rejigging of the work may be necessary to get what can be done into any window of opportunity. That certainly happened to a limited degree last week. As well as the work set out in their latest press release there should be work carried out at Bamford and the new footbridge to replace the foot level crossing will be lifted into place at Hathersage West.

Dore Platform 1 is being restored to its original 6 car length to reach the original starting signal position, seen below. Platform 2 will be built in the same position as the original 6 car platform removed in 1985 - so 3 times as much platform space. That may start to appear before the end of next month. I'm not aware of any new platform extensions following the work about 3 years ago at Grindleford, Hathersage and Hope in the Hope Valley and one or two towards Manchester about the same time to make them all up to 4 car.

 

[Greybeard33]

Dore Platform 1 is being restored to its original 6 car length to reach the original starting signal position, seen below. Platform 2 will be built in the same position as the original 6 car platform removed in 1985 - so 3 times as much platform space.

Were the original Dore platform lengths 120m, i.e. 6 cars of 20m length as in use in 1985, or 144m, which will accommodate 6 cars of modern 24m stock, such as 185s and 195s?

 

[Killingworth]

Were the original Dore platform lengths 120m, i.e. 6 cars of 20m length as in use in 1985, or 144m, which will accommodate 6 cars of modern 24m stock, such as 185s and 195s?

Good question. Back then they were running 4 car DMUs and prior to that 4 car loco hauled stock but specials were quite often run and could be longer.. Now they'll be taking 6 car 185 and 195s in what seems to be the same place.

I've boarded a long train from the old Platform 3 but I didn't count how long or if it could have hung over at the south end. Memory of steam hauled days suggest that wasn't uncommon. I feel sure i travelled on at least one, possibly on the ECML, that set forward somewhere to allow the rear coach travellers access, but I'm digressing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2023 ==


Updated 15.1.2023

It's been a busy weekend with work very visibly picking up. I understand progress has also been made with the Hathersage West footbridge and on the Bamford loop.

At Dore the big step forward has been the installation of the first crossover part of the new Dore West Junction. Here seen from both sides looking towards the road bridge carrying Abbeydale Road South/Baslow Road. The old crossover in the foreground is to go.



Work continues with soil nailing by West View Lane ready to excavate more of the track bed for the new Dore loop. Work continues preparing the track bed for the restored second track and platform at Dore & Totley station.

 

[Legolash2o]

The journey from Dore West Jn to South Jn going through Dore Tunnel is currently 15mph. Are there plans to increase it?

 

[Bryson]

The journey from Dore West Jn to South Jn going through Dore Tunnel is currently 15mph. Are there plans to increase it?

View attachment 127311

That section of line is tightly curved with junctions at both ends. I wouldn't expect much change to the speed.

 

[zwk500]

The journey from Dore West Jn to South Jn going through Dore Tunnel is currently 15mph. Are there plans to increase it?

It might go up to 20 or 25mph but there's very little value in increasing it any further as most freight on it would need to be held for a path further on anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

Signal overlap lengths and increased overrun risk might also be an issue at higher speeds.

 

[Killingworth]

The journey from Dore West Jn to South Jn going through Dore Tunnel is currently 15mph. Are there plans to increase it?

View attachment 127311

The plan I saw 2 years ago was to increase it to 20 mph. A laden train from the Hope Valley would struggle to get to exceed that speed safely after crossing Dore West Junction, rounding the tight curve and rising across Dore South Junction into Bradway Tunnel, even with a clear run. Running empty out of Bradway Tunnel round Dore South Junction and through Dore Tunnel to the Hope Valley it will have to check for Dore West Junction anyway. Living above that point I hear the wheels squealing as they go round now, then labouring up the rise into Bradway Tunnel. Loaded trains do create a bottle neck for all trains going up and down the MML as they cross.



Work is progressing on the new Bamford loop, two pictures yesterday from the Bamford and Hathersage ends. The new Hathersage West footbridge foundations are there but don't show yet on my third picture.

First from Jaggers Lane bridge at Hathersage towards Bamford. Second from that distant bridge at Bamford back to Jaggers Lane bridge. Third is from Jaggers Lane bridge back towards Hathersage, the view soon to be interrupted by the new footbridge to replace the foot crossing.

 

[td97]

The plan I saw 2 years ago was to increase it to 20 mph.

Correct, 20mph.

 

[Freightmaster]

At Dore the big step forward has been the installation of the first crossover part of the new Dore West Junction. The old crossover in the foreground is to go.

Your photos of the Dore area are extremely useful to me for updating my realtime signalling maps...

in the above picture I notice that signal S52 (immediately in front of the bridge) is powered down;
do you know if this was due to the work taking place, or has a replacement signal been provided
near the footbridge you are standing on?





MARK

 

[td97]

do you know if this was due to the work taking place, or has a replacement signal been provided

No new signalling commissioning has occurred yet.
For track construction it's not uncommon to have to disconnect existing S&T and then re-commission prior to handback. I'd go with this.

 

[Freightmaster]

No new signalling commissioning has occurred yet.
For track construction it's not uncommon to have to disconnect existing S&T and then re-commission prior to handback. I'd go with this.

Thanks for that - the current location of S52 is obviously on the wrong side of the newly installed
crossover which will provide the only access to the lengthened Dore curve, so it will have to be
moved further west at some point (pun intended!)





MARK

 

[Killingworth]

Thanks for that - the current location of S52 is obviously on the wrong side of the newly installed
crossover which will provide the only access to the lengthened Dore curve, so it will have to be
moved further west at some point (pun intended!)





MARK

There's a lot more still to do on signalling. That will be the deciding factor in when this can all go live. There's a building due to be constructed for that on the railway triangle at Dore and a smaller one south of Dronfield near Unstone.

 

[ricoblade]

I walked through Dore Triangle yesterday (first time in about 40 years since I've been there!), certainly plenty of Volker Rail folks about.

 

[InOban]

https://twitter.com/TodaysRailways/status/1617234304693575682?t=0wsKJgANXppL6d4qA1exkg&s=19

Came across this, showing work, I assume today

 

[Killingworth]

Last 2 weekends have been very active, see my posts 1221 and 1226. Three pictures here, the first two on Saturday about 17.00 from the footbridge by Totley Tunnel East signal box.

The third is from Jaggers Lane overbridge today showing the span of the new footbridge at Hathersage West. This replaces the now closed foot level crossing. The stairs still have to be added before the new bridge can be opened.

 

[ricoblade]

Thanks for all the udpates @Killingworth. I was hoping to see your post as I'd seen Today's Railways UK's tweets over the weekend.

 

[Killingworth]

Another weekend and more progress.

At Bamford the eastbound turnout went in just outside the station.

At Dore the new bridge spanning the River Sheaf alongside Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet was in by 6 am on Sunday morning. (It should have gone in last November.) Hard to get a picture so these two are long distance shots from Abbey Lane road bridge and Beauchief Gardens.



Elsewhere construction of the new Principal Supply Point (PSP) on the railway triangle has started. Details of that are in the Sheffield planning application Ref 22/01767/FUL at; https://planningapps.sheffield.gov....ils.do?keyVal=RBF02WNYIME00&activeTab=summary Described as follows

"The proposed Dore PSP is required infrastructure to provide new signalling systems, power supply and
equipment storage space to support the wider Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, which received consent
through a Transport and Works Act Order (TWAO) which was made on 18th April 2018 (TWAO reference
(TWA 3/1/4/66)).

 

[ricoblade]

Another weekend and more progress.

At Bamford the eastbound turnout went in just outside the station.

At Dore the new bridge spanning the River Sheaf alongside Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet was in by 6 am on Sunday morning. (It should have gone in last November.) Hard to get a picture so these two are long distance shots from Abbey Lane road bridge and Beauchief Gardens.

View attachment 128942 View attachment 128943

Elsewhere construction of the new Principal Supply Point (PSP) on the railway triangle has started. Details of that are in the Sheffield planning application Ref 22/01767/FUL at; https://planningapps.sheffield.gov....ils.do?keyVal=RBF02WNYIME00&activeTab=summary Described as follows

"The proposed Dore PSP is required infrastructure to provide new signalling systems, power supply and
equipment storage space to support the wider Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, which received consent
through a Transport and Works Act Order (TWAO) which was made on 18th April 2018 (TWAO reference
(TWA 3/1/4/66)).

View attachment 128944

Thanks as always for the updates @Killingworth. I was a bit further north yesterday on Abbey Lane and through Hutcliffe Wood. It's really noticeable that all the trees have been cut back and there are large piles of wood chippings as a result.