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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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YorkshireBear

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Got to agree nym we need to start looking at Leeds manchester and any other station sites soonr rather than later. This is afterall a first step i personall want to see the east side go to newcastle (maybe not at 250mph but 180 to make construction easier) and the west side to go up and then Y to go to edinburgh and glasgow.

Leeds is complicated but in theory i agree with what tou say, i may take a look next time im down there see if i can see anything. (space)
 
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Nym

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Well, if there is space at Leeds Central's site, I'd kick all of the Bradford and Ikley etc. commuter services over to it, and hand over the area of Platforms 1 to 4 and the car park to build the HS2 station.

Manchester the only area I could find (and yes, I have been on the ground) that makes any kind of sense is the Baring St Industrial Area, bound by the A635, A635M, Baring Street, Fairfeild Street, and the current Piccadilly. And widening the viaduct from Piccadilly to Longsight out by 2 conventional gauge tracks, and 2 UIC GC tracks, the former for the styal branch, the latter for HS2. And the site of the Manchester International Depot can be used for grade seperated junctioneyness and tunnel portals / continuation down the Styal Line, or use of whatever alignment you decide to use from Manchester.

Also with the lack of space at Piccadilly platform wise, I think they should be starting work on it from phase one.
 

jon0844

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By the way doesn't Jeremy Clarkson live near the chilterns? I am surprised we haven't heard from him about it yet.

His DVDs are all out and Top Gear has already started its new series. He's got plenty of time to say something controversial about it, but he has to get the timing just right!!

What's more, he's only going to say what we'd expect him to say! The media will gladly give him the opportunity, but only once they've run out of people to speak to.
 

Ivo

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All this talk about the Leeds and Manchester stations is all very well, but do we know what will happen with Sheffield and the East Midlands as yet? With this statement are they now officially confirmed but as yet indeterminate?

junctioneyness

A great choice of word there if I may say so :p
 

HSTEd

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At this point the only viable approach to Manchester I can see is by quading the Styal Line and joining it near Manchester Airport (depending on if you want a high speed station there or not).

Also if you look at that kmz of mine I suggest a Sheffield-Meadowhall Interchange as there is a fairly viable route through the rest of the urban area.
 

swt_passenger

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This timetable from the DfT website explains exactly why they won't be starting digging next week:

Spring 2012 Public consultation on blight proposals
Spring 2012 Consultation with statutory bodies on the safeguarding zone for phase 1
Spring 2012 Government receives HS2 Ltd advice on phase 2 route options
Spring 2012 Engagement programme along phase 1 route on Environmental Impact Assessment issues
Autumn 2012 New blight scheme and safeguarding zone in place
Autumn 2012 Engagement programme on phase 2 preferred route, to discuss local views and concerns
Spring 2013 Consultation on Environmental Statement for phase 1
End of 2013 Introduction of a hybrid bill to provide necessary powers to construct and operate phase 1 of the railway.
Early 2014 Consultation on preferred route for phase 2
Late 2014 Government’s announcement of the chosen route for phase 2

That Hybrid Bill stage will probably take a couple of years, like Crossrail...
 

MK Tom

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Do we have any more details now about how HS2 will affect long-distance high-speed services to Milton Keynes?

Sorry to be selfish but my feeling on the project hinges on whether it takes away or allows for more high speed serivces from MK to London and the north.
 

Nym

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Or if you don't mind some demolition (that would be nessesarry for that route anyway) and some tunnelling, plough through Wythenshawe on the route of what was supposed to be the M60 to Sale Water Park (Sharing part of a Metrolink alignment) and then a small amount of tunnel to meet the Fallowfeild Loop trackbed, surface for a short distance, again, junctioneyness, where the space permits at the Fallowfeild Loop junction with the Didsbury Line, the tunnel portals form the Manchester end of the Delta Junction, back into 3 clicks of tunnel again, curving up to Longsight for the new viaduct onto Mayfeild / Piccadilly / Baring St.
The South to West fast line of the Delta splits just NW of the M56, proceeds to either tunnel under alty up to the junction for the line to Patrington (the trackbed and alignment we shal be taking) or have an insanely tight curve in Timperley, I'm favouring tunnel under C Alty and immerge in West Timperley (as it's the main line, could do with being fast!) run up to Patrington where the North - Manchester side of the Delta will meet it, then over using the embankments at Patrington (if possible we'll have a road crossing too please!) onwards to Manchester West Parkway just north of Birchwood for connections to the WCML at Wigan and Chat Moss for Liverpool via St Helens Junction, interchange with platforms on the CLC and/or Chat Moss.
From the Fallowfeild Loop Junction, a short section of single track tunnel (from between the two lines to MSP) will immerge and two track north of Sale Water Park, skirt the M60 past the A56, then follow roughly the A6144 out to the junction at Patrington, this can be a bit more curvey and gauged for 100mph operation to keep it mostly above ground.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do we have any more details now about how HS2 will affect long-distance high-speed services to Milton Keynes?

Sorry to be selfish but my feeling on the project hinges on whether it takes away or allows for more high speed serivces from MK to London and the north.

Will proberbly result in a great number of the current LDPE services calling at MKC, all we have currently are predicted patterns.
 

swt_passenger

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Do we have any more details now about how HS2 will affect long-distance high-speed services to Milton Keynes?

Sorry to be selfish but my feeling on the project hinges on whether it takes away or allows for more high speed serivces from MK to London and the north.

Ever since the first report was published under Adonis it has been known that Milton Keynes would see more stops in remaining fast line services to/from London. The question remains what the northern destinations from MK will be - it isn't a lot of good if the trains all go to New St...
 

HSTEd

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Or if you don't mind some demolition (that would be nessesarry for that route anyway) and some tunnelling, plough through Wythenshawe on the route of what was supposed to be the M60 to Sale Water Park (Sharing part of a Metrolink alignment) and then a small amount of tunnel to meet the Fallowfeild Loop trackbed, surface for a short distance, again, junctioneyness, where the space permits at the Fallowfeild Loop junction with the Didsbury Line, the tunnel portals form the Manchester end of the Delta Junction, back into 3 clicks of tunnel again, curving up to Longsight for the new viaduct onto Mayfeild / Piccadilly / Baring St.
The South to West fast line of the Delta splits just NW of the M56, proceeds to either tunnel under alty up to the junction for the line to Patrington (the trackbed and alignment we shal be taking) or have an insanely tight curve in Timperley, I'm favouring tunnel under C Alty and immerge in West Timperley (as it's the main line, could do with being fast!) run up to Patrington where the North - Manchester side of the Delta will meet it, then over using the embankments at Patrington (if possible we'll have a road crossing too please!) onwards to Manchester West Parkway just north of Birchwood for connections to the WCML at Wigan and Chat Moss for Liverpool via St Helens Junction, interchange with platforms on the CLC and/or Chat Moss.
From the Fallowfeild Loop Junction, a short section of single track tunnel (from between the two lines to MSP) will immerge and two track north of Sale Water Park, skirt the M60 past the A56, then follow roughly the A6144 out to the junction at Patrington, this can be a bit more curvey and gauged for 100mph operation to keep it mostly above ground.

Interesting, unfortunately my alternate routes for the second phase used up all the tunnelling I think is affordable at Nottingham....8km tunnel under the trent and city with a box station beneath the current one.
 

Zoe

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Will proberbly result in a great number of the current LDPE services calling at MKC, all we have currently are predicted patterns.
What exactly is an LDPE service?
 

Nym

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The question is though, what is cheaper? Demolishing ~60 houses on the Styal Branch (Some in very expensive areas) and still proberbly needing tunnelling for the through route and to complete the Delta (Unless the junction is MUCH further out, since not putting the station at Manc Airport is idiotic!) or tunneling for about 10 to 12 miles, since we'll have the TBMs already from the southern end tunnels, the inital capital costs for the TBMs is taken care of, and it would mean a much quicker alignment past Manchester.

And those saying "You can't tunnel under Manchester" I'm not mentioning any tunnels in Central Manchester, only on the outskirts. The use of the Fallowfeild Loop isn't essential, the junctioney part of the Delta can be taken care of at Longsight with three or four tunnels leaving there, and simply boring all the way to another portal at the Roaring Gate Lane area (where you can get plant in and out easilly) and Sinderland Lane...

Zero residential demolition must be something that would be a popular move.

If you want less work for the TBMs, a cut&cover box would be possible around some areas.

But if I had my ideal route, considering we already have TBMs of the correct gauge available, set up the major tunnel portals site off Roaring Gate Lane or Clay Lane to save a mile or two and have the tracks merge, possibly Roaring Gate Lane for the Manchester bound lines, and Clay Lane for the MWP (Northbound) lines, giving maximum acceleration distance for calling services. HS2 tracks off the 'Manchester South Parkway' station will dive down, lets say at Clay Lane, two will go onwards to surface at Sinderland Road in West Timperley before crossing (as previously discribed). That's 2.75mi of tunnel per track.
The route into Manchester, if you go all tunneled, comes out at Longsight then you're looking at a slightly curvey route, but the least curvey available, and about 7.5mi of tunnel per track.
You could save some tunnel by building a box immediately north of the M60 near Princess Road, having the TBM enter and exit this, and use the box to form the junction for getting to the West. Then you could either continue to run this in another tunnel, or shove it above ground, you'd have to wave around a forest, golf course and water park, but 100mph running wouldn't be too taxing. Or use the TBMs again from this box, or from Longsight, all the way out to the Carrington Junction on the M60.

At most, you'd be looking at using the TBMs for 15mi into Manchester, 10mi out of Manchester (could be as little as 0 mi but would pave over a golf course, although would provide opportunity for an additional station at Sale Water Park for the Javelin services) and 5.5 mi for the through route (the most important) to MWP.

So a fair tunneling estimation for a near perfect route (less than perfect for W from Manchester, the quality of the HS2 - HS1 Link) you're looking at about 22 - 25mi of tunnelling, and we already have the TBMs, and wouldn't need them until phase 1 is finished, but the work on the station and preparing the ground at Longsight, Manchester South Parkway, Manchester West Parkway, Fallowfeild, Sale and Manchester Baring Street can start now. Also, Manchester Baring Street, and some links into the fasts at Longsight can be completed at Phase 1, and possibly include grade seperation of Slade Lane Junction (By moving it to Longsight) and providing seperate tracks for the Styal Branch would ensure capacity on other services into Manchester.

What exactly is an LDPE service?

Long Distance Passenger Express (Intercity)
 

Zoe

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LDPE has been used by NR and the DfT in the past, so it isn't just one of my terms, unlike MSP, MWP, BSP and BCZ
And possibky Mark 6 coaches. Yes I know you say Nightstar was Mark 5 but I've never seen this official designation.
 
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Nym

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Zoe, considering the speed that I type this stuff out, using abbreviations that inside context everyone can understand, I don't see to be a problem, if you have a problem with me including what I see to be perfectly reasonable abbreviations for stations, routes, junctions, rolling stock types etc. Then please take it to PM rather than moaning about it in thread.

Since I rarely have people complain about abbreviations and/or fantasy classifications, I have done nothing to change this, and unless I get a serious complaint regarding the clarity of my posts because of this, the chances are I will not change anything.

PS: LDHS Services are distinguished from LDPE services in that LDHS Services use HS Track, where as LDPE services may use HS track, or may not.
 

Zoe

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Zoe, considering the speed that I type this stuff out, using abbreviations that inside context everyone can understand, I don't see to be a problem, if you have a problem with me including what I see to be perfectly reasonable abbreviations for stations, routes, junctions, rolling stock types etc. Then please take it to PM rather than moaning about it in thread.
I don't have a problmen with it, I just noted the smiley at the end of your post so made the comment about the Mark 6 coaches which may well be another of your inventions. I'm not telling you what to use at all, just that I wasn't sure if LDPE was officialy used.
PS: LDHS Services are distinguished from LDPE services in that LDHS Services use HS Track, where as LDPE services may use HS track, or may not.
Network Rail have been using LDHS to refer to services on the ECML and as far as I know there is no "High Speed Track" on this line if indeed "High Speed" will be used for HS2.
 

brad465

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Its 3 more years of consultations before a rail is even laid, hence the pathetic timescale, the government's problems it created for its self...

Surely all you need is 1 year to wrap up plans and at the same time order most of the stock needed. Really 3 years is too long in my world.


How in God's name this should take 14Years is beyond me.
We truly must be the laughing stock of the Rail World.
Fair enough if that was the time for completion to Manchester, Leeds and Scotland (even that would be fairly pathetic by international standards), but 14Years for London to Birmingham!!

I totally agree here, if it's only going to take 7 more years to extend to Manchester and Leeds as two separate branches, it will only take about 7-10 years to get to Birmingham. (Taking into account the urban area of London and all the new tunneling)

I wonder how long before debates of the extension to do with the environment will kick off. ;)
 

dangie

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Only just joined this thread and haven't read all the previous posts, but to me it's all a waste of time as HS2 won't be built. Sure the current government says it will, but in a few years time there will probably be a change of government who will then promptly scrap it only to restart it a couple of years later when they again will be replaced by another government who will then scap and restart (repeat, repeat, repeat....). Building HS2 is not common sense or whether it'e needed, but politicians making names for themselves and attempting to stay in a job. Kiss HS2 goodbye.
 

Zoe

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Surely all you need is 1 year to wrap up plans and at the same time order most of the stock needed. Really 3 years is too long in my world.
But it takes time to complete the legislative procedures once the plans are complete.
 

The Planner

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His DVDs are all out and Top Gear has already started its new series. He's got plenty of time to say something controversial about it, but he has to get the timing just right!!

What's more, he's only going to say what we'd expect him to say! The media will gladly give him the opportunity, but only once they've run out of people to speak to.

JC lives in Chipping Norton, miles away from it all.
 

YorkshireBear

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Only just joined this thread and haven't read all the previous posts, but to me it's all a waste of time as HS2 won't be built. Sure the current government says it will, but in a few years time there will probably be a change of government who will then promptly scrap it only to restart it a couple of years later when they again will be replaced by another government who will then scap and restart (repeat, repeat, repeat....). Building HS2 is not common sense or whether it'e needed, but politicians making names for themselves and attempting to stay in a job. Kiss HS2 goodbye.
We dont need it now. We will in 2030. So build it now rather than doing what highway sagency do which is wait for 3 lanes of a motorway to exceed capacity then put a businescase forward for the 4th lane.
 

swt_passenger

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Network Rail have been using LDHS to refer to services on the ECML and as far as I know there is no "High Speed Track" on this line if indeed "High Speed" will be used for HS2.

I'd note also that the initialism LDPE is completely unknown to NR's search system, but LDHS is a very regularly used term.

I don't recall seeing LDPE in any of their recent stuff myself, so I don't think you were wrong to ask...
 
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Only just joined this thread and haven't read all the previous posts, but to me it's all a waste of time as HS2 won't be built. Sure the current government says it will, but in a few years time there will probably be a change of government who will then promptly scrap it only to restart it a couple of years later when they again will be replaced by another government who will then scap and restart (repeat, repeat, repeat....). Building HS2 is not common sense or whether it'e needed, but politicians making names for themselves and attempting to stay in a job. Kiss HS2 goodbye.

HS2 has support from all three main political parties in the Commons.

I had my doubts too, but it's looking more and more likely that it's going to happen.

The cost isn't that much as it's spread over many, many years. It's a fraction of a percentage of annual government spending.
 

brianthegiant

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in a few years time there will probably be a change of government who will then promptly scrap it only to restart it a couple of years later when they again will be replaced by another government who will then scap and restart (repeat, repeat, repeat....)...... Kiss HS2 goodbye.

You should maybe read up a little on the history of the HS2 project before you post...
In fact HS2 was first proposed by the previous government who formed HS2 Ltd, and the project continued in the same format by the tories, indeed there is support from leadership of tories, labour and lib-dem.
Unless you can provide any evidence for your pet theory, it is unsubstantiated nonsense.
 

jon0844

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One thing that is for certain. Once it IS built (and it will be one way or another, given every party supports it) then people will look back and wonder what the fuss was about.

I am amazed that we've gone from a nation that often questions why we take so long to do things, seem stuck in the dark ages and (insert other rant here). Now we're suddenly against a high speed/high capacity rail network that solves loads of problems with our overcrowded railway. So much so that I am sure people on other routes will then ask when they can get HS3, HS4 etc.

We may be a small country, but these lines aren't just about saving a few minutes here and there. It's about capacity, quality of service (now people expect more on a train; especially leisure travellers) and reliability. All things a modern line could (or should) bring.

There will be knock-on benefits to legacy routes, and it's not as if NR will now axe all other projects to build HS2!

A lot of moans seem to be about the temporary disruption during construction, rather than the line itself. Building sites are usually left looking better than before work began, with comprehensive landscaping or the construction of new buildings etc. No pain, no gain.
 

brianthegiant

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All this talk about the Leeds and Manchester stations is all very well, but do we know what will happen with Sheffield and the East Midlands as yet? With this statement are they now officially confirmed but as yet indeterminate?

On this or another thread recently there were several posts that thought South Yorkshire would likely be served by a parkway station at Meadowhall, and East Midlands by a parkway station at Toton.
I did see a HS2 station at Derby on a 'map' in one of the nationals today, (Guardian or Telegraph), but total speculation on their part. getting HS2 through Derby would be difficult. The actual proposal will be made later this spring. A few MPs and councillors in the Nottingham area seem to think Toton is likely.
 

Nym

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Although getting into Derby and Nottingham may be hard, providing services to their railway stations may not be if Classic Compatable stock is used, and a decent parkway put in at Trent Junction kind of area. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
 

Chris125

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Do we have any more details now about how HS2 will affect long-distance high-speed services to Milton Keynes?

Sorry to be selfish but my feeling on the project hinges on whether it takes away or allows for more high speed serivces from MK to London and the north.

Remember that its not about the current situation vs HS2, but what will happen post 2026 - a more crowded WCML will only force up fares and hurt service provision/journey times for intermediate stops, something that is going to happen in the next decade and a half anyway. The best way to deal with that is through more capacity, which means HS2.

Chris
 
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