High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[edwin_m]

I read an interview with someone from Birmingham recently (can't remember if it was head of Centro or Chamber of Commerce). They seemed to be saying that because people like stations with good retail facilities, the New St - Curzon St link should go via the bullring. I can't think of anything worse than battling through thousands of saturday shoppers with my baggage when changing trains...

I think they tried to do that in 2003 when the new Bull Ring opened - seems to remember that walking alongside the road that goes underneath it was strongly discouraged.

See also the change between DLR and Jubilee Line (and in future Crossrail) at Canary Wharf.

 

[AndyLandy]

I do agree that good interchange is fundamental to the success of HS2 but locating the HS2 stations any closer to existing stations would make the property impacts a lot worse, and extending the existing stations to provide equivalent platform capacity would be worse still.

So, the thing that gets me is that we're quite happy to shunt the Birmingham end into its own station and make interchange a menace, yet the London end is being pointlessly forced through into Euston! This seems like madness to me.

 

[HSTEd]

So now Ed Balls is telling more lies about HS2 by claiming the budget has "shot through £50bn".....

I haven't seen any figures that don't try to adjust to 2033 pounds that are above £40bn...... except from those idiotic figures cooked up by opponents that include numerous things..... like a new underground line.

 

[tbtc]

So, the thing that gets me is that we're quite happy to shunt the Birmingham end into its own station and make interchange a menace, yet the London end is being pointlessly forced through into Euston! This seems like madness to me.

I really wish they'd called the new Birmingham station "Moor Street" (as it's going to be as close to Moor Street as the EMT platforms at St Pancras are to what most people would call St Pancras!) - calling it Curzon Street suggests its even further away from New Street than it really will be.

Seriously though, I think that Interchange between HS2 and local services at Birmingham New Street/ Moor Street is a more important subject than the small numbers who are going to want to interchange between HS2 and HS1. Not denying that there will be some people wanting to travel from Paris to see the delights of Meadowhall, just suggesting that they are going to be a realtively low number (compared to all of the discussion about them).

 

[HSTEd]

How about tram trains on Midland Metro so you can run a Wolverhampton-Moor Street service which would provide relatively easy connections to the Curzon street platforms?

 

[AndyLandy]

I really wish they'd called the new Birmingham station "Moor Street" (as it's going to be as close to Moor Street as the EMT platforms at St Pancras are to what most people would call St Pancras!) - calling it Curzon Street suggests its even further away from New Street than it really will be.

What's interchange between Moor Street and New Street like? I've never had call to do anything other than change within New Street.

In essence, it doesn't matter if there's a bit of distance between the various terminals, what's needed is an integrated way of connecting. Something that makes you feel like you don't ever leave "the railway" to get between terminals. I suspect some airports could benefit from this, too.

Seriously though, I think that Interchange between HS2 and local services at Birmingham New Street/ Moor Street is a more important subject than the small numbers who are going to want to interchange between HS2 and HS1. Not denying that there will be some people wanting to travel from Paris to see the delights of Meadowhall, just suggesting that they are going to be a realtively low number (compared to all of the discussion about them).

Agreed. Given there's enough people going in and out of London anyway, why would we want to force HS1/HS2 interchange into zone 1 as well?

I think someone else said something similar in a previous post, but the real cornerstone for southern HS lines should be the proposed Old Oak Common station. Give that station decent connectivity into zone 1 and stop worrying about running the HS line those extra couple of miles.

After all, whilst I'm sure some people who arrive at Euston actually want to be in the Euston area, I'll bet the majority head straight for an onward connection elsewhere.

 

[jon0844]

So now Ed Balls is telling more lies about HS2 by claiming the budget has "shot through £50bn".....

It's only a case of jumping on every possible bandwagon... thus we've been told the bedroom tax will be axed (even though it's not a tax), parents will get free childcare (which turns out to be a modest increase in free hours for 3-4 year olds, not what was implied last week) and HS2 is a waste of money.

All just playing to popular opinion.

 

[PR1Berske]

It's only a case of jumping on every possible bandwagon... thus we've been told the bedroom tax will be axed (even though it's not a tax), parents will get free childcare (which turns out to be a modest increase in free hours for 3-4 year olds, not what was implied last week) and HS2 is a waste of money.

All just playing to popular opinion.

Public opinion which is, according to YouGov polls, against HS2.

 

[Clip]

Public opinion which is, according to YouGov polls, against HS2.

How many on here were asked though and how many people overall were asked and in what locations were those people asked and what were the questions?


I could go and ask some people right now what they think of HS2 and they would say they were all for it. Thats public opinion so now I declare that public opinion according to the Clip poll shows the public are in favour of HS2.

My how the yes vote has swung since you made that post

 

[PR1Berske]

But you're not an official polling organisation with years of experience.

 

[Clip]

But you're not an official polling organisation with years of experience.

How do you know? I have been asking questions to people for years about things and then using that information to give a certain answer.


But what about my other questions with regards to the poll?

 

[PR1Berske]

Well it's like the reaction to the influential Public Accounts Committee report which tore into HS2. If anything is negative towards the project, this industry-biased forum tends to rubbish it.

I posted a direct link to the poll many posts ago. One of your pro-number chose to rubbish it and its question without reading the post. I think it was about 1,000 people with a lead against.

 

[Clip]

its 333 pages long this thread I am not about to go hunting as Ill be here all day. If you are not going to answer then ill leave it.

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't the poll revealed to have been commissioned by a sunday newspaper?

Newspapers that are very good at sharing their own opinion to influence the readership?

Anyway, the point is that people are now realising that there's some political capital to be made from HS2 - and that even includes from the very party that has enabled HS2 to get where it is today.

It's interesting that Ed Balls sat on the fence by saying he'd support it, but not if costs escalated beyond £50bn. Given not a single bit of HS2 has yet started being built, it's odd that all of a sudden the costs have supposedly done so - but Ed Balls can now show he's looking after the taxpayer.

And when HS2 ensures that it can prove the figures will be less, he can at least partially claim that he helped bring the costs down and stop things spiralling out of control.

It's quite amusing to watch how the MPs spin things on all sides, but I'd rather listen to the people that actually know a bit about the rail industry or construction in general - and look at other projects that have been completed on time and on budget. Bar a few absolute shockers, we are a nation that can do things - and do them well.

 

[HowardGWR]

How many on here were asked though and how many people overall were asked and in what locations were those people asked and what were the questions?


I could go and ask some people right now what they think of HS2 and they would say they were all for it. Thats public opinion so now I declare that public opinion according to the Clip poll shows the public are in favour of HS2.

My how the yes vote has swung since you made that post

I am afraid you are unknowledgeable about proper polling and have have resorted to the fatal trap of anecdote. It is irrelevant what people think on here or what pundits and lobbyists write..

If you go to the YouGov web site you will find the answers to your questions on polling.

Having written that, if governments took any notice of what voters think about things they know little about, there would be no point in having a government.

 

[Clip]

I am afraid you are unknowledgeable about proper polling and have have resorted to the fatal trap of anecdote. It is irrelevant what people think on here or what pundits and lobbyists write..

If you go to the YouGov web site you will find the answers to your questions on polling.

Having written that, if governments took any notice of what voters think about things they know little about, there would be no point in having a government.

Or I may have been being a proper sarky sod.

Also why is it irrelevant what people on here think - are we all not members of the public too? If we are then it is relevant what we think or are our thoughts just dismissed because we seem to have a shared like in the railways?


So no fans of the railway, no pundits and no lobbyists for either side of the arguement are allowed because it is irrelevant as to what they think. Thats quite a considerable amount of people you are not including in what the 'Public voice' is saying.

And also, if pundits are not relevant then surely the people who have read what a pundit writes and then formed their opinion off the back of that - no matter what side of the arguement - then they should also be discounted from what the 'Public view' is.

Wow, how many people are left now then? Ive ran out of fingers and toes to do massive multiplication with.

 

[PR1Berske]

YouGov are a polling organisation, they are very well respected and well regarded. It's typical that this forum tries to discredit opponents.

 

[HowardGWR]

Or I may have been being a proper sarky sod.

Also why is it irrelevant what people on here think - are we all not members of the public too?

It's irrelevant to the subject of opinion, because it is not representative, whereas the YouGov polling is (which is what we were discussing). I am not saying that people's input to the process is irrelevant but simply that it is not relevant to the statutory processes of planning. The latter are what decides the future of the project (apart from funding issues) and you will have every opportunity to take part (if you haven't already).

 

[Geezertronic]

YouGov are a polling organisation, they are very well respected and well regarded. It's typical that this forum tries to discredit opponents.

I imagime that comment refers to yourself if your previous posts in this thread regarding ridiculing the ridiculous, and your couple of forum signature's have been anything to go by

Of course, what you (and StopHS2) fail to realise is that asking a couple of thousand people carefully worded questions doesn't constitute the mass concensus of public opinion no matter how you spin it. For all we know the people asked could have lived in Buckinghamshire

 

[PR1Berske]

You must realise that YouGov would not ask people in a specific county. How desperate you sound.

 

[Geezertronic]

You must realise that YouGov would not ask people in a specific county. How desperate you sound.

You can continue to ridicule as that is what you do best. I've looked at that YouGov poll and the question was not worded very well. There is no mention of the timescale in the question so people would naturally assume the £50bn would be up front rather than spread across many years. That is the problem with polls such as this - the wording of the question invariably determines the results

 

[MidnightFlyer]

YouGov are a polling organisation, they are very well respected and well regarded. It's typical that this forum tries to discredit opponents.

In the same manner which you discredited a report by one of the world's leading and most highly-respected auditors on High Speed 2, which was in favour I recall?

 

[ainsworth74]

In the same manner which you discredited a report by one of the world's leading and most highly-respected auditors on High Speed 2, which was in favour I recall?

And indeed those criticisms were then robustly countered by those on this thread with no come back. Can we therefore assume that PR1Berske did not have a come back becuase they saw the error of their ways in criticising the report?

 

[PR1Berske]

Unlike the industry-biased members of this thread, I do not have every technical term and Class type to hand to prove or disprove a point being made. If this is the attitude you take against members of the public wanting to have their say, it's little wonder there's so much 'spark' between the two kinds of posters here.

 

[Geezertronic]

Unlike the industry-biased members of this thread, I do not have every technical term and Class type to hand to prove or disprove a point being made. If this is the attitude you take against members of the public wanting to have their say, it's little wonder there's so much 'spark' between the two kinds of posters here.

Ordinary members of the public will form an opinon on the many (true) facts that are out there. You seem hell bent on wanting to destroy every answer that is placed in front of you even going as far as posting blatant untruths and exaggerations as your previous posts and signatures prove. I wouldn't count that as ordinary...

Facts speak for themselves, unfortunately Joe Public listens to the person who shouts the loudest which at the moment is the anti-rail mob.

Having travelled on the M40 today, I wonder how the landscape would be today without it...

 

[Muzer]

The poll shows that people don't want HS2. Let's take this poll to be an accurate sample of public opinion, even though (judging by the way it is worded) it probably isn't. This means the industry needs to work harder in informing people why it is necessary. Most people think HS2 is to get businessmen to Birmingham 10 minutes faster. It isn't.

 

[HSTEd]

You must realise that YouGov would not ask people in a specific county. How desperate you sound.

Why not?

You seem to be living under an illusion that YouGov is above all forms of politics.
It is not.

They will inevitably produce a poll that agrees with what the commissioner wants to hear.
Otherwise not many polls will be commissioned with them in the future.

 

[Clip]

YouGov are a polling organisation, they are very well respected and well regarded. It's typical that this forum tries to discredit opponents.

Im not trying to discredit them at all, Im taking the mick out of you, and I must say it is fun. I asked you a few questions about the poll and because the poll at that time was in your favour and you are using it to make a point then I would expect you or anyone else to be able to have the answers at the ready and then post them, not skirt about continuously making it even more fun. Especially when others are highlighting the fact that other reports and so on you never reply nor answer to no matter how credible they are because they dont fit with your anti HS2 agenda. It really is fun BTW.

It's irrelevant to the subject of opinion, because it is not representative, whereas the YouGov polling is (which is what we were discussing). I am not saying that people's input to the process is irrelevant but simply that it is not relevant to the statutory processes of planning. The latter are what decides the future of the project (apart from funding issues) and you will have every opportunity to take part (if you haven't already).

Honestly I really am being a sarky sod and not trying to rub you up the wrong way with what I am saying but I do understand what you are saying.

The poll shows that people don't want HS2. Let's take this poll to be an accurate sample of public opinion, even though (judging by the way it is worded) it probably isn't. This means the industry needs to work harder in informing people why it is necessary. Most people think HS2 is to get businessmen to Birmingham 10 minutes faster. It isn't.

And this is exactly what the Govt need to start doing, now and loudly. PR1Berske will never agree to it but lets make him one of the vocal minority and get as many people onside between now and whenever. But needs to be done quickly.

 

[Tobbes]

I think someone else said something similar in a previous post, but the real cornerstone for southern HS lines should be the proposed Old Oak Common station. Give that station decent connectivity into zone 1 and stop worrying about running the HS line those extra couple of miles.

OOC will have great connectivity - it will be on Crossrail, so a short hop west to LHR, direct service East to TCR, Liverpool St (City) and Canary Wharf. One change at Farringdon and you're on Thameslink.

Tobbes

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, I have been out most of the day. I have just heard a news item on Radio 4 saying that Labour will still support the HS2 project until the time of the next election, but if elected to power, will then seek a report to see if the budgeted costs could be better spent elsewhere on transport projects.