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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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HSTEd

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This phase of HS2 would only cost £4.5bn according to estimates by HS2 Ltd.
About the same as GC Gauge clearing the ECML from York to Newcastle.

And I believe that a 2hr journey time to Newcastle might be achievable.
 
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tbtc

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I expect it will come down to the C-word again. Capacity. Certainly routing London-Newcastle-Edinburgh trains via Birmingham is never going to be the most efficient route, but if we need to free up ECML capacity for regional/commuter/freight services, punting the Intercity stuff onto HS2/3, even via Birmingham, might be a viable prospect

Yup.

Running Newcastle services non-stop from York to London might be great for Geordies, but it takes up paths that could be used for services like Cambridge/Stansted to Yorkshire or additional Lincoln - Nottingham trains (over the flat junction at Newark) or local services over Welwyn or more local services from Scarborough/ Hull/ Grimsby to Meadowhall/ Sheffield over the flat junction at Doncaster...

Take the Newcastle services onto a separate line and you create space elswhere.
 

GingerSte

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If we are worrying about the disruption caused by closing some roads in Leeds over a weekend, then this scheme would close most of Sheffield Midland for months.

Meadowhall is good enough for me, especially as i means not needing to shut anything down in Sheffield

You are not going to be able to build Leeds New Lane by closing Great Wilson Street / Victoria Road for a weekend. It's just not going to happen. Until you've got a box that the contractors can safely work inside, and the public can travel under, you will have to close one or both of those roads. In the case of Great Wilson Street, completely. My (finger in the air) guess is that this would be somewhere between 1 and 2 months.

Have you ever seen a steel building get erected? Particularly a one-storey portal frame structure? It takes a couple of days. It is quick, I know. What then takes the time is all the rest of it: the cladding, the glazing, the fit out etc. You would need at least the cladding and bracing in place before re-opening those roads.

I would also remind you that these are not some back streets which could be easily closed. These are main routes from the motorway into the city centre and out again. Any closure would have massive repercussions, and affect the public support for HS2.

I agree that using Sheffield Midland would be disruptive in the short term. But using Meadowhall will be disruptive to HS2 passengers for Sheffield CC in the long term. Sheffield is the destination of choice for most HS2 users, not Meadowhall.

Yes there will be disruption at Sheffield Midland. I don't believe that most of it will be closed for months, though. Plus, the work can be staged so that Sheffield Midland remains partly open at least most of the time. In order of ease (easiest to hardest)...

Dore to Sheffield There is already room for 4 tracks between Dore and Sheffield. In fact there probably was 4 tracks at one stage. There would be a short section up to 6 tracks wide where HS2 diverges. Most of the work required for this could be done in weekend/christmas/easter closures. (Although I concede that a blockade a la Nottingham station would probably get it done faster and cheaper.)

If you to do a blockade, then do the northern throat first. This allows the extra services in from the north, and you can run trains through Darnall instead of Dore. Disruption is then limited to passengers from Hope Valley line. Buses could be used between Dore and Sheffield (or a long round trip via Chesterfield).

Shrewsbury Road and Granville Road Bridges Shrewsbury Road Bridge would probably have to go, to allow for longer platforms for HS2 services and an improved Southern throat. This looks to me to be a fairly minor/local route, and the diversionary route is only a mile or two for cars. I'm not sure whether Granville Road would need any change or not. It depends on the distances involved (difficult to tell from Bing maps). This may need an extra span on the west side, in which case a new 3-span bridge to the south, ramping down on the site of the MacDonalds (and business next door) would be less disruptive.

New platforms at Sheffield Midland One possible construction sequence...
1. Find new place (outside Sheffield CC) for depot and stabling trains. (Relatively low cost, no disruption to passengers)
2. Construct new island between 1 and 2 (Done in normal possessions to limit disruption to services. Possibly increase hours available for possession on late nights and very early mornings, say 20:00 to 06:00, by using platforms 3 to 8 only. The reduced service at this time would help in that. This new island would have a through road on the west (2X), and 2 bays on the East (3X and 4X). Note that the line for 3X and 4X is actually the line serving 2, and is currently a through line. It also cuts off access to 2X, 3X and 4X for the moment.
3. Construct temporary access to 2X, 3X and 4X. Some contractors use temporary bridges made of polystyrene blocks to allow plant to pass from one platform to the other. This can be erected in a single night. Almost zero disruption. This does block 2 as a through route, but 2X has compensated.
4. Construct permanent access to 2X, 3X and 4X adjacent to temporary. To include staircase and lift connection to footbridge. Remove temporary when ready. Build new support for footbridge in this location, to allow existing support on island to be removed later.
5. Construct new bay platforms 5X and 6X by cutting into old platform 2, and laying rails.
6. Close 3X and 4X. Use space to make 5X and 6X wider (accessed from 2X side).
7. Do a similar thing on the other side of the platform 2-5 island, including connection to footbridge.
8. Remove old connection from island 2-5 to footbridge. New connections are already in place.
9. Split enlarged island into 2. Make existing bays 3 and 4 into two through lines. Will probably require removal of footbridge supports, but new ones have already been provided on new bays.

You now have 2 extra through-line platforms. Extending the station south (see Shrewsbury Road and Granville Road Bridges above) allows terminating MML trains to occupy a bay instead of a through platform. That gives 7 through platforms to be shared by HS2, Cross Country and Transpennine services. I think that's do-able.


Sheffield Midland North Throat Personally I reckon you could get the line 4-tracked to Nunnery Lane Junction by widening the cutting (although 3 tracks with a single bi-directional line for the Darnall-bound trains would probably be easier). It would take some heavy engineering though, and a long possession of that stretch of line. Land purchase would be minimal as it would be between the existing line and Park Square Roundabout for most of it.

I also think that some of the road bridges over the line are no longer in use (Anson Street and South Street Park form a dead end so closure might be easier). Duke Street, High Street Lane and Bard Street bridge closures could be staggered to maintain road access. Old street Bridge could be closed while maintaining access from the other side. The junction of Cricket Inn Road and Broad Street could be remodelled to avoid it going over the railway. Land purchase would be minimal as it would be between the existing line and Park Square Roundabout for most of it. According to Multimap, there is some sort of car park (or possibly car dealership) over the line at Stepney Street. I would bet that Network Rail own this land and could force a move if they needed to. I'm not sure how much more access is needed to Stepney Street.

Having looked at this section of line with this in mind, I don't think you would need to close any of the Sheffield Supertram to achieve this, as the bridge crosses the throat before it merges into two tracks. This would help keep the cost down.

As far as operations during the blockade goes, London St P - Shef trains could operate as normal, as could Shef-Man. Local services would have to terminate at Meadowhall. (If only there were a tram system that could shuttle passengers between Sheffield Midland and Meadowhall during the disruption). The easiest way of dealing with XC services is to temporarily reopen Rotherham Masborough, stop the XC's there, and run shuttle buses to Shef. XC could then run round Sheffield to Chesterfield.

This leaves you with 2 tracks heading to Meadowhall and 1 or 2 to Darnall. Darnall services are now completely separated from Meadowhall ones, and can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion. You still have a pinch point on the viaduct as far as Brightside. I don't plan on doing anything about the viaduct, as it would be expensive. Instead, I would use points and flyovers between Brightside Lane and the Meadowhall junction to sort out the different flows.

GingerSte on a blank canvas you are correct. In the modern climate it is not workable.

Which bit? If you give me specifics I can answer them.

I would point out that HS2 is the closest thing to a blank canvas that we will get in our lifetime. I think that my scheme for Leeds would possibly save money (although wouldn't stake my reputation on it without a proper costing). The Sheffield Station would be difficult, yes, but £1 billion extra cost (according to someone in Sheffield who did the numbers) for £4 billion in benefit is almost a no-brainer.
 
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edwin_m

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As an aside, how far south is the Y-split? Specifically, will it be worthwhile/possible to run HS trains between Manchester and Leeds?

No. The split is near Water Orton on the outskirts of Birmingham so even with the increased speed Manchester-Leeds would still take longer. Also the junction is not a triangle so a Manchester-Leeds train would have to reverse in the Birmingham area.
 

The Ham

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In the next 7 years NR are preparing to spend £37 billion on the existing network and are talking about spending more on the existing network during the construction of HS2 than will be spent on the construction of HS2:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/09/20-rail-must-end-victorian-legacy.html
NETWORK RAIL must catch up on a whole generation of under-spending on the country’s rail network, which is why £37 billion is now planned to be spent between 2014 and 2019, according to chief executive David Higgins.

“Everything is being done 20 years late. Like the water industry, the railways have been dining out on the legacy of Victorian investment,” he said, warning that similar critical issues also face the aviation and power industries.

David Higgins was speaking at the opening of a conference in Birmingham on 'HS2 – the wider network, the wider benefits.'

Emphasizing 'a substantial mismatch between supply and demand' he said that while passenger numbers had doubled there had been no new tracks put down – 'except one to France'.

He added: “Thameslink and Crossrail are great – but there is no new heavy rail above ground at all. The tunnels just join up existing lines.

“As you put more and more trains on the same tracks you run out of capacity, which is why very regrettably we had to turn down Virgin’s plans to run extra trains to Shrewsbury and to Blackpool,” he said.

Nevertheless, he said in coming years Network Rail will continue work to lengthen trains, to lengthen platforms and to lengthen passing loops for freight trains.

“During the building of HS2 we will spend more money on improving and enhancing the present network than will be spent on HS2,” he forecast.

But in his first substantial public speech about HS2, David Higgins – who is standing down next spring – declared his passionate support for the project. “If we don’t build it now, we will miss out for another 50 years.

Speaking of the need to relieve demand on the West Coast Main Line, and to rebuild its London terminus, he said that by the time the HS2 'Y' network is completed, Euston would be approaching 70 years of age. Already it was coping with twice the number of trains and passengers it was designed for, and in the next 10 years it was expected passenger numbers would grow by a further 20 per cent.
 

Geezertronic

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No that's false because the anti-rail protestors have said that HS2 will starve investment on the classic network :roll:

Of course I am extracting the urine :)
 

Chris125

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You are not going to be able to build Leeds New Lane by closing Great Wilson Street / Victoria Road for a weekend. It's just not going to happen. Until you've got a box that the contractors can safely work inside, and the public can travel under, you will have to close one or both of those roads. In the case of Great Wilson Street, completely. My (finger in the air) guess is that this would be somewhere between 1 and 2 months.

Months? Once the road is bridged the deck which the station sits on will protect the road below during construction of the station above, I see no reason for it to stay closed.

Chris
 

Trog

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I was thinking if HS2 gets the chop, what are the available second best ways of increasing capacity on WCML south end.

The obvious one seems to be two extra tracks on the GW mainline from Northolt to Birmingham, mainly for fright use. A lot of the over bridges and stations are already built with four tracks in mind, which will save money. Reinstating Kenilworth - Berkswell and Hampton in Arden - Whitacre. Also altering the RBS1 between Berkswell and Birmingham International to four tracks including a dive under to swap sides without conflict. This would improve things on the Birmingham - Rugby route, while giving several connections into the lines radiating from Birmingham.

Thoughts?
 

jon0844

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If the WCML can be widened in places relatively cheaply, I'd say it should go ahead even with HS2.
 

Geezertronic

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I don't see what value 4 tracking Berkswell to International would offer, surely Berkswell to at least Adderley Park would be better? But then the restrictions on the amount of lines into the south of New Street would become the bottleneck?
 

tbtc

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If the WCML can be widened in places relatively cheaply, I'd say it should go ahead even with HS2.

Absolutely - we will need to increase capacity on corridors like London to Milton Keynes/ Northampton over the next fifty years, even with HS2.

If there are "quick fixes" out there then lets do them (too)
 

RichmondCommu

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Since we are talking something like 2026 when the London - Birmingham/ Lichfield servics will be running (?), the 390s are going to be getting quite old.

Some are going to be needed for fast services on the Milton Keynes route anyway, of course, so it wouldn't need to be a "one for one" replacement.

Classic Compatible trains are going to be needed in reasonable number longer-term for services to Liverpool/ Newcastle etc anyway, though I don't know the exact numbers.

The DfT has set out its stall based on capacity enhancements so I can only see the DfT ordering the bare minimum Classic Compatible trains for services to the stations you've listed. With the best will in the world (and I would love so see the DfT order more very useful CC trains) I don't how they will have enough to cover those diagrams.

There probably will be growth north of Lichfield, agreed (though probably not as much as growth south of Lichfield) - but we can only build one stretch of HS2 at a time.

Agreed, although if there isn't growth DfT is going to look pretty stupid.

At the moment the departure board at Euston shows:

  • xx.00 - Manchester service - first stop is Stoke so could run via HS2 line south of Lichfield
  • xx.03 - Birmingham service
  • xx.07 - Liverpool service - first stop is Stafford so could run via HS2 line south of Lichfield
  • xx.10 - Chester/ Holyhead service
  • xx.20 - Manchester service
  • xx.23 - Birmingham service
  • xx.30 - Lancaster/ Glasgow service - first stop is Warrington so could run via HS2 line south of Lichfield
  • xx.40 - Manchester service - first stop is Crewe so could run via HS2 line south of Lichfield
  • xx.43 - Birmingham service

...so that's four services an hour that could run via HS2 from London to Lichfield and take up their "old" path north of Lichfield - which would mean a faster service for Manchester/ Liverpool etc and free up a few extra paths for Milton Keynes/ Northampton etc each hour.

I concur with all of this but it does nothing to help congestion north of Lichfield until the second phase is built. Nobody appears to be able to come up with a credible alternative and this is the problem that we will face after 2026.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Living in Sheffield (and on the far side of Sheffield from that big shopping centre), I'm okay with a station at Meadowhall - it could be a lot worse (the site of the old Sheffield Victoria, Nunnery Square, the site of the old Sheffield Airport) - Meadowhall is integrated into the local trains/ trams/ buses without needing to build whole new systems like at Totton.

I certainly don't see Sheffield justifying its own "spur", and it'd be hard to argue with a station at Sheffield Midland - given the costs caused by squeezing a High Speed line through Sheffield's valleys/ hills.

In all fairness, along with Euston, Meadowhall is the only HS2 that is sufficiently integrated with the rest of the network. Oh for a central station in Birmingham (i.e. New Street) which served all routes. Sadly the nation can't afford it and so we have to make do with Curzon Street etc :(
 
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tbtc

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I concur with all of this but it does nothing to help congestion north of Lichfield until the second phase is built. Nobody appears to be able to come up with a credible alternative and this is the problem that we will face after 2026.

What's the alternative?

Build the Manchester/ Leeds - Birmingham section first (thus solving the smaller problem first)?

Wait until the full route from London to Manchester/ Leeds is open before running any services on it?

Building the most-needed section first (London - Birmingham) and allowing services from further north (which currently run non-stop south of Stoke/ Crew/ Warrington etc) to use it seems the best way forward.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In all fairness, along with Euston, Meadowhall is the only HS2 that is sufficiently integrated with the rest of the network. Oh for a central station in Birmingham (i.e. New Street) which served all routes. Sadly the nation can't afford it and so we have to make do with Curzon Street etc :(

I think that calling the Birmingham station "Curzon Street" was a bad thing - the site of it is going to be right next to Moor Street, connecting to some of the local train services there (handy for some lines, not handy for others, appreciated)

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05305issue2.pdf

New Street would be better, I agree, but calling the proposed station "Curzon Street" makes it sound a lot further out of town than it actually is.
 

RichmondCommu

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What's the alternative?

Build the Manchester/ Leeds - Birmingham section first (thus solving the smaller problem first)?

Wait until the full route from London to Manchester/ Leeds is open before running any services on it?

Building the most-needed section first (London - Birmingham) and allowing services from further north (which currently run non-stop south of Stoke/ Crew/ Warrington etc) to use it seems the best way forward.

Well there isn't really an alternative and this is the problem! However, I think the DfT may well go with your second option in the end as by which time everything will have gone through Parliament and the North will just have to wait.
 

jon0844

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It would be nice to be able to speed up the construction and perhaps work on different sections at once.

I have no idea how much more expensive this would be, and the ability to wire it all up with limited expertise and equipment.. but with the delays already incurred, I think (contrary to what the anti HS2 campaigners would say) the network will be very congested long before these new lines open.
 

RichmondCommu

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I think that calling the Birmingham station "Curzon Street" was a bad thing - the site of it is going to be right next to Moor Street, connecting to some of the local train services there (handy for some lines, not handy for others, appreciated)

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05305issue2.pdf

New Street would be better, I agree, but calling the proposed station "Curzon Street" makes it sound a lot further out of town than it actually is.

The problem is even Moor Street is not that useful. Wolverhampton for example is never really likely to ever get direct HS2 services so high speed travel to London is going to be far from convenient. For this I blame the GWR, LNWR and the MR. Victorians eh :roll:
 

edwin_m

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In all fairness, along with Euston, Meadowhall is the only HS2 that is sufficiently integrated with the rest of the network. Oh for a central station in Birmingham (i.e. New Street) which served all routes. Sadly the nation can't afford it and so we have to make do with Curzon Street etc :(

Curzon Street will be pretty well integrated with Moor Street, and I think the walk to New Street won't be much longer than, say, accessing the Victoria Line from St Pancras. Closing/narrowing the road through the tunnel under the Bull Ring and adding a travelator would be a big help.

Leeds is similar to Curzon Street. In both cases good design will be critical to interchange.

The Birmingham Interchange will have poor rail connections, probably relying on some kind of people mover through the NEC site to International and the airport, unless the idea of a branch off the Birmingham-Coventry line comes to pass. However all trains serving International also serve New Street so some journeys could interchange there instead.

Old Oak ought to have good interchange with the GW main line, as the two are roughly parallel so could be accessed from a shared concourse. If Overground platforms are provided they might be rather distant, although there is a proposal kicking around known as "Poirot's Moustache" where the Clapham Junction and Richmond routes swap lines out of Willesden Junction and return to their correct tracks via an east-west link passing through the new station.

Manchester Piccadilly potentially has good interchange with the HS2 concourse adjacent to the existing one - at least as good as Euston. There is scope to move the Metrolink platforms to improve its links to both stations. Obviously links to Victoria are less good.

Toton will have good physical interchange with HS2 and classic platforms adjacent and accessed from a shared concourse. The issue will be the number and timing of the classic trains calling there.

Manchester Airrport won't have very good rail interchange though there is talk of building the western half of the Wythenshawe Metrolink loop to provide some links to south Manchester. Even with this it probably needs a peoplemover to the airport station and the airport itself. Again there are relatively few journeys where a train-to-train interchange here is necessary, given that all Airport services also serve either Piccadilly or Crewe.

How good the interchange at Meadowhall is depends on whether the classic platforms are moved close to the HS2 station, including the Barnsley line platforms where the line would have to be realigned onto the old GC alignment for a mile or so. However nearer to HS2 also means further from the shops, which will probably still generate more passengers although perhaps from a different demographic. A travelator will be needed for one or the other so maybe just leave the station where it is and provide the travelator to the HS2 station?

So I'd say the speed of interchange to classic rail was something like:

1= Euston
1= Piccadilly
1= Toton
1= Old Oak

5 Meadowhall

6= Curzon Street
6= Leeds

8= Manchester Airport
8= Birmingham Interchange
 
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RichmondCommu

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Curzon Street will be pretty well integrated with Moor Street, and I think the walk to New Street won't be much longer than, say, accessing the Victoria Line from St Pancras. Closing/narrowing the road through the tunnel under the Bull Ring and adding a travelator would be a big help.

Leeds is similar to Curzon Street. In both cases good design will be critical to interchange.

The Birmingham Interchange will have poor rail connections, probably relying on some kind of people mover through the NEC site to International and the airport, unless the idea of a branch off the Birmingham-Coventry line comes to pass. However all trains serving International also serve New Street so some journeys could interchange there instead.

Old Oak ought to have good interchange with the GW main line, as the two are roughly parallel so could be accessed from a shared concourse. If Overground platforms are provided they might be rather distant, although there is a proposal kicking around known as "Poirot's Moustache" where the Clapham Junction and Richmond routes swap lines out of Willesden Junction and return to their correct tracks via an east-west link passing through the new station.

Manchester Piccadilly potentially has good interchange with the HS2 concourse adjacent to the existing one - at least as good as Euston. There is scope to move the Metrolink platforms to improve its links to both stations. Obviously links to Victoria are less good.

Toton will have good physical interchange with HS2 and classic platforms adjacent and accessed from a shared concourse. The issue will be the number and timing of the classic trains calling there.

Manchester Airrport won't have very good rail interchange though there is talk of building the western half of the Wythenshawe Metrolink loop to provide some links to south Manchester. Even with this it probably needs a peoplemover to the airport station and the airport itself. Again there are relatively few journeys where a train-to-train interchange here is necessary, given that all Airport services also serve either Piccadilly or Crewe.

How good the interchange at Meadowhall is depends on whether the classic platforms are moved close to the HS2 station, including the Barnsley line platforms where the line would have to be realigned onto the old GC alignment for a mile or so. However nearer to HS2 also means further from the shops, which will probably still generate more passengers although perhaps from a different demographic. A travelator will be needed for one or the other so maybe just leave the station where it is and provide the travelator to the HS2 station?

So I'd say the speed of interchange to classic rail was something like:

1= Euston
1= Piccadilly
1= Toton
1= Old Oak

5 Meadowhall

6= Curzon Street
6= Leeds

8= Manchester Airport
8= Birmingham Interchange

Apologies for being a bit thick here but for example does '6' signify? I'll confess to having forgotten about Old Oak Common!
 

PR1Berske

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Here's an idea - build HS2 upside down, building the Y first, and move down to Birmingham.
 

jon0844

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The most congested part will be at the London end, so that wouldn't help. But building it quicker would help everyone. Yet could add to the cost, so hardly likely to be popular.

I'm sure that as with any modern contract, it will be completed ahead of schedule anyway (unless it's a football stadium) as that seems common practice. Especially if there's any early completion bonus or the risk of heavy penalties for being late, rather like recovery time on timetables.
 

AndyLandy

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The problem is even Moor Street is not that useful. Wolverhampton for example is never really likely to ever get direct HS2 services so high speed travel to London is going to be far from convenient. For this I blame the GWR, LNWR and the MR. Victorians eh :roll:

I do worry about what interchange is going to be like regarding HS2. I can well imagine lots of users will want to connect into HS2 from a local rail service. I know it would apply to me (I currently have to travel from Hartford to Crewe to pick up the WCML expresses)

People movers and travelators are all well and good, but what about people with lots of luggage. If you make interchange times too long, you wipe out the speed benefits of HS2. I'd far rather spend an extra 30 minutes on a train than 30 minutes carting my bags across a station.

I do wonder whether we're shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't make interchanges quick and convenient.
 

si404

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Oh for a central station in Birmingham (i.e. New Street) which served all routes. Sadly the nation can't afford it and so we have to make do with Curzon Street etc :(
New Street wouldn't serve all routes.

And there were 00s plans for a Curzon Street area interchange station. The report was published to compete with the New Street Gateway project. Network Rail had a "not invented here" syndrome, but were still relatively open to the idea. Birmingham City Council loved it and reserved the land. Eagle Sam, I mean Alistair Darling, said 'never' and approved the gateway project (the biggest scheme he approved?) that previously he didn't like just to make sure 'Birmingham Grand Central' was blocked. A couple of years later Birmingham CC reluctantly starting to sell the land.

Ironically, one of Darling's complaints about HS2 - and about the only one that doesn't show that he doesn't understand how the Treasury work or the plans (and this man was Chancellor, and before that Minister for Transport) - is lack of connectivity to other rail links in Birmingham. Of course, his BANANA nature is about 60% to blame for that, with Network Rail (who have also made the same point) responsible for the other 40%.
 

Chris125

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(for the record the above quote is from RichmondCommu, not me)

I see that 51m have proposed a alternative strategy for spending £50bn - divided over a decade and a half it's pretty underwhelming and appears to show their true priorities when it comes to transport:

£10 billion should be devoted to developing ultra-fast broadband
£17 billion to be invested on infrastructure in the country’s core cities
£7 billion on boosting jobs through grants to local enterprise partnerships
£14 billion on roads
...and only £2 billion on the existing rail network.

So much for their alternative WCML upgrade then, which they seemingly spent 100k on

Chris
 
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PR1Berske

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(for the record the above quote is from RichmondCommu, not me)

I see that 51m have proposed a alternative strategy for spending £50bn - divided over a decade and a half it's pretty underwhelming and appears to show their true priorities when it comes to transport:

£10 billion should be devoted to developing ultra-fast broadband
£17 billion to be invested on infrastructure in the country’s core cities
£7 billion on boosting jobs through grants to local enterprise partnerships
£14 billion on roads
...and only £2 billion on the existing rail network.

So much for their alternative WCML upgrade then, which they seemingly spent 100k on

Chris

They've got a great point about developing broadband and infrastructure. Remember that in 20 or 30 years time, working practices and technology would have changed far more than the size/length/comfort of trains, and the average worker who is being targeted by HS2 as the ideal customer will almost certainly want faster Internet rather than faster trains. The 9-5 model on which HS2 is based won't exist when HS2 is built.

The £2bn they would spend on the existing rail network could - COULD, I don't know the full amount - be focused on those parts of the WCML which are at the most critical. After all, HS2 won't resolve bottle necks around Coventry, it just builds around them.

Why risk so much money on a new network? Use less money more wisely.
 

HSTEd

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14 Jul 2011
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Ah yes, the promised "work from home" revolution that has stubbonly refused to materialise.


And why throw resources at a Victorian money pit?
A new line offers lower risk and better value for money.
 
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