High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[PR1Berske]

Yes, as it is a sacrifice worth making.
As it happens London would lose one of its best pubs, ie 'The Bree Louise' But it is a price worth paying.

I actually find it incredible to see people who are 'pro rail' being against HS2.
After decades of seeing governments of both colours treat the railway apallingly, along comes at last an ambitious idea which could transform the Railway of the UK, and yet I see pro-rail people coming down against it.

I love the railways. I love going on new lines, tying out new stations whenever I'm non-league groundhopping, I even like learning station-stop announcements. I like seeing new stock on the line, I support investment where it's needed, I enjoy discussing old/disused tracks.

But I also like pointing out what is wrong. And HS2 is simply wrong. We are sleepwalking into a zoo containing only white elephants.

 

[WatcherZero]

Which takes me back to square one. Posts like this do nothing to further the argument for or against and actually undo much of the constructive argument posted in favour of HS2. Shame really.

Why? berkes posting something controversial he knows to be wrong in order to try and gain sympathy for his viewpoint. I dont really see how 'dont support HS2 or the bunny gets it' is a rational argument?

 

[JohnB57]

Why? berkes posting something controversial he knows to be wrong in order to try and gain sympathy for his viewpoint. I dont really see how 'dont support HS2 or the bunny gets it' is a rational argument?

It isn't. Not 100% at least. But in ridiculing everything he says, you might just disregard the 5% that makes you think.

But if you think the response I quoted is valid, then you're just as bad, so I'm back to square one again. Try to improve the value of the debate, not degrade it eh?

 

[Chris125]

I would not like to agree that it must be demolished on the grounds that a new railway must be built - that kind of attitude died out in the 1890s.

You don't have to, as the proposals for the two extra platforms have always been about increasing capacity on the existing network for local and regional services.

If you don't believe me check out the pubs very own facebook page which says the following about the MEN article;

"Bad photo, nice hat, and it's NOT ABOUT HS2, IT'S ABOUT THE NORTHERN HUB"

Chris

 

[Geezertronic]

[RANT] - apologies in advance

There is a lot of complete nonsense in this thread and the vast majority has been written by people dead set against HS2 who keep posting the same non facts over and over again and in different form. The actual facts speak for themselves rather than non accurate or emotive comment.

Case and point about nonsense HS2 comments are the comments of Joe Rukin (campaign co-ordinator of Stop HS2, the national campaigning body against HS2) made in january 2013, posted at http://news.sky.com/story/916374/hs2-cases-for-and-against-high-speed-rail. Unfortunately people nuy into this nonsense rather than actual facts which, as others have said before, is mainly down to bad PR from the Government and HS2 Ltd

There are plenty of other nonsense and emotive generated comments on the Stop HS2 website too which I visit on the odd occasion if I fancy a laugh. In fact the ironic thing about Stop HS2 is that one of their logo comments is "No money to pay for it" yet a common anti-HS2 comment is that the money could be better spent elsewhere on the railway network (or NHS etc...). I wonder if there is no money to pay for HS2, where this money is going to come from to better pay for other things?

Other commonly made comments from anti-HS2 people relate to the HGV traffic and noise that would be generated during construction, and the ongoing noise of the railway line when in use. Usually they then mention 6 tracking the WCML or 4 tracking the Chilterns which, aside from the masses of extra demolition of houses this would require, would also generate similar amounts of HGV traffic during construction and additional noise when active. But then the issue would be elsewhere and NIMBY wouldn't it?

[/RANT]

 

[CalderRail]

Which takes me back to square one. Posts like this do nothing to further the argument for or against and actually undo much of the constructive argument posted in favour of HS2. Shame really.

Why? He was just told the demolition in question was nothing to do with HS2, and his response was "Yes, but are people happy with it being demolished because of HS2?"

That is, by any stretch of the imagination, him talking out of his arse.

 

[brianthegiant]

I love going on new lines, tying out new stations whenever I'm non-league groundhopping, I even like learning station-stop announcements. I like seeing new stock on the line, I support investment where it's needed, I enjoy discussing old/disused tracks.
But I also like pointing out what is wrong. And HS2 is simply wrong. We are sleepwalking into a zoo containing only white elephants.

Like many who oppose HS2, you construct your argument with lots of 'better' alternatives. Even if these alternatives were proven to offer equivalent new capacity & BCR. There is still a fundamental problem with them & that problem is the treasury. The £50Bn allocated to HS2 isn't a blank cheque that the DfT can spend on whatever it wants. If HS2 did actually get cancelled, do not kid yourself for one second that money would still be spent on the railway, because it wouldn't, there would be a queue of 'shovel ready' projects from other departments into which most of it would disappear (overspent defence projects for example).

I think if we genuinely want the government to continue capital investment in the railway to continue at the current rate (on crossrail) then we need to support HS2, or that money will melt away.

If HS2 isn't quite the right project for you then frankly you've left it too late to make that argument, you should have made it to Andrew Adonis about 4 years ago.

By opposing HS2 you are not supporting investment in British Railways you are opposing it.

I for one am fed up with the low reliablity of our overly complex & stretched to the limit intercity routes. Separating out intercity from freight & stopping services is the common sense way to improve reliability, HS1 is robust evidence of that.

 

[Geezertronic]

It isn't. Not 100% at least. But in ridiculing everything he says, you might just disregard the 5% that makes you think.

But if you think the response I quoted is valid, then you're just as bad, so I'm back to square one again. Try to improve the value of the debate, not degrade it eh?

Maybe this may be of help by way of a touche?

When faced with the ridiculous, I ridicule. HS2 is ridiculous.

Post #4181

 

[PR1Berske]

Well at least one of my rhetorical flourishes has been picked up by someone on Twitter :roll::roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

So to keep on topic, do supporters of HS2 support the demolition of a Grade II* listed building ?

Sure, if there's no alternative, but I suspect if it's so significant it could be moved to a new location and again this Pub would be going with or without HS2 as it's affected by the expansion of Piccadilly as part of the Northern Hub.

 

[AndyLandy]

So to keep on topic, do supporters of HS2 support the demolition of a Grade II* listed building ?

I've always been pretty skeptical of what buildings end up getting listed. There are some ugly monstrosities out there that are listed because they're unique, or somehow special.

As such, I'm pretty in-favour of de-listing buildings unless there's some real cultural significance as to why we should keep them. I'd be against knocking down St. Paul's Cathedral, for instance, but a pub in Manchester? Not so sure.

In fact, I think the 1960s rebuild of Euston station is one of the best things that could have happened to it. Now we can knock it down and rebuild it again, and nobody will care. Try doing that to Kings Cross or Paddington...

Equally, I'd love to live in a world where the NRM can keep a record of every different train type we've built over the years, but sometimes they all end up getting scrapped. It's sad, but you just have to move on.

Never let the past drag down the future. That's what I say!

 

[HSTEd]

The Zoo containing White Elephants relates to HS2 "alternatives".... not the project.

 

[PR1Berske]

The Zoo containing White Elephants relates to HS2 "alternatives".... not the project.

When I referred to the country sleepwalking into a zoo containing white elephants, I most certainly did mean HS2.

 

[HSTEd]

When I referred to the country sleepwalking into a zoo containing white elephants, I most certainly did mean HS2.

And yet you have not presented any alternatives that will provide the capacity required for less money per seat.

So your solutions essentially boil down to pricing people off the railway so that the poor are simply not permitted to travel.

 

[tbtc]

So is it okay to knock down the pub for the Northern Hub?

Is the Northern Hub partly based upon estimates and projections (rather than definite numbers of exactly how many passengers will use it in a few years time)?

Can I come on here and claim that the Northern Hub is only about saving five minutes between Piccadilly and Victoria in Manchester (with no other benefits)?

How does it work?

 

[AndyLandy]

Which takes me back to square one. Posts like this do nothing to further the argument for or against and actually undo much of the constructive argument posted in favour of HS2. Shame really.

Quoted for Truth™

Can we please resist the temptation to stray into pointless name-calling and ad hominem attacks against other members? There's some decent healthy debate going on here and some worthwhile points for discussion. Let's not dilute it.

 

[anthony263]

One of the best transport secretaries we have had in years

Yes although he should have put the brakes on IEP and let bidders such as First Group get on with their own rolling stock proposals.

As for HS2 I cant wait for construction to start, maybe then the nimbies will quiet down a bit.
I agree with the points raised by the pro-HS2 camp about the extra capacity being needed especially if we see extra freight services from Southampton & Felixstowe wanting to travel via the west coast mainline.

Perhaps as well less congestion on teh west coast mainline will help places such as Watford Junction & Milton Keynes get served by more long distance high speed services as well as opening paths for cities & town which currently do not have a good direct link to London, Shrewsbury and Blackpool for example.

Plus the quicker rail service will help encourage more people to use the train to travel north-south or South - North rather than drive along the M40 & M6 etc thus reducing road congestion

 

[brianthegiant]

When I referred to the country sleepwalking into a zoo containing white elephants, I most certainly did mean HS2.

I note that you didn't respond to my last response, because as usual when someone drills into the detail of what you post you just move onto another argument. What that means is that your arguments are shallow & don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[PR1Berske]

How many grade 2 & 2* listed pubs/bars/restaurants are there in the UK PR1Berske?

I don't know.

How many of them do you want to see knocked down?

 

[tbtc]

How many of them do you want to see knocked down?

Are you happy for this pub to be knocked down to allow platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly to be built as part of the Northern Hub?

Simple question.

 

[PR1Berske]

Are you happy for this pub to be knocked down to allow platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly to be built as part of the Northern Hub?

Simple question.

If it's a yes/no question, then no, I suppose I'm not..

I've expressed my doubt about 15/16 before, in particular the problems with fitting the platforms around the Hotel.

I have often drunk and danced in the Star & Garter. It has a large and loyal fanbase.

I would rather it stay than knocked down for either 15/16 or HS2.

I can almost be certain of the next question you're going to ask. IIRC, Network Rail has released three options for 15/16, one of which leaves S&G alone, so that is the one I would support if it goes ahead.

15/16 is clearly needed as a project. But I can't support it if S&G has to be knocked down.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If it's a yes/no question, then no, I suppose I'm not..

I've expressed my doubt about 15/16 before, in particular the problems with fitting the platforms around the Hotel.

I have often drunk and danced in the Star & Garter. It has a large and loyal fanbase.

I would rather it stay than knocked down for either 15/16 or HS2.

I can almost be certain of the next question you're going to ask. IIRC, Network Rail has released three options for 15/16, one of which leaves S&G alone, so that is the one I would support if it goes ahead.

15/16 is clearly needed as a project. But I can't support it if S&G has to be knocked down.

Well done. You've just ousted yourself as a NIMBY. Next.

 

[PR1Berske]

Well done. You've just ousted yourself as a NIMBY. Next.

:roll:

I dare suggest that you would not like a pub you visit being knocked down.

 

[ainsworth74]

I dare suggest that you would not like a pub you visit being knocked down.

Depends on the pub!

But in all seriousness I might not like it if a favourite pub got knocked down for a new railway. But I wouldn't say the whole scheme should be scrapped just because of it.

 

[HSTEd]

:roll:

I dare suggest that you would not like a pub you visit being knocked down.

There is a difference between not particularily liking it and then withdrawing your support from a massively important project because you are not willing to lose it for anything.

 

[Geezertronic]

:roll:

I dare suggest that you would not like a pub you visit being knocked down.

Most of the pubs around where I live are now either Liddl's, Netto or care homes tbh good riddance to them and the trouble they caused

 

[gordonthemoron]

I thought I'd visited all the heritage pubs in the centre of Manchester, but I'll check out the Star and Garter. IMO most pubs around Picadilly are not very good

 

[HSTEd]

I lived near it in my first year at uni, real oldy world booser type of place.

 

[joeykins82]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/projects/manchester-oxford-road-piccadilly/

There are 3 options for the platforms 15 & 16 alignments at Piccadilly, only 1 of which affects the Star & Garter. And yes, it's related to the Northern Hub project, not HS2 so it'll be going ahead regardless of whether or not HS2 does.

Thus endeth the off-topic discussion on this subject (I hope)

 

[gordonthemoron]

I lived near it in my first year at uni, real oldy world booser type of place.

How does it compare to Peveril, Briton, Marble and Hare & Hounds?