High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[ainsworth74]

From post #4518 to this posting (#4531) another tread has been merged in. So just read carefully to make sure that no wires are getting crossed

 

[59CosG95]

I'm going to resort to big font for this:
THAT
IS
WHAT
HS2
EFFECTIVELY
IS

Joeykins, the plan for that was to reduce HS2's footprint. By keeping the line on/near the WCML, there will be less complaints about HS2's route. So then the Tory kingpins will be more likely to give it the go-ahead. But I guess via all those other places is shorter. EDIT: Scrap what I said these last few points, I now see why we need HS2. Just thought a few alterations were necessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But, however, I think that the HS2-HS1 link in its present form (NLL) needs a SERIOUS rethink. I believe the subterranean East-West oriented Euston would be better, as through trains proper are then a possibility. The above-ground Euston can then be used for more LM-style services to New St. and Crewe (maybe beyond).

 

[HSTEd]

The WCML tends to go through towns, this means that attempting to widen it means cutting swathes through housing estates et al.

You can probably see why this is problematic.
Also working on an active railway is an order of magnitude slower and more expensive than a random strip of land.

 

[AndyLandy]

The WCML tends to go through towns, this means that attempting to widen it means cutting swathes through housing estates et al.

You can probably see why this is problematic.
Also working on an active railway is an order of magnitude slower and more expensive than a random strip of land.

Basically this. If you're resigned to basically throwing down a whole new pair of fast lines for the WCML, you don't actually have to follow the existing alignments. Once you've reached that conclusion, it becomes obvious as to why HS2 as a new alignment would actually work out cheaper than working alongside the existing WCML.

 

[CalderRail]

From post #4518 to this posting (#4531) another tread has been merged in. So just read carefully to make sure that no wires are getting crossed

Given how many different sub topics within "HS2 debate" there are, we could probably use a separate forum to keep them all in.

 

[work-traveller]

Some new concept renders of Man Pic from MCC masterplanning doc.

Looks good. One detail that's not correct though...

Shouldn't the cars in the foreground be hover-cars and the pedestrians be wearing foil space suits? Because lets face it, by the time HS2 actually arrives in Manchester...

 

[59CosG95]

Some new concept renders of Man Pic from MCC masterplanning doc.

I must admit I do love the huge shed.

Is that all the concept renderers at this point? Hope there are more! Can you also link the site?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I searched around for a similar thread to this and found it locked. So I'm opening a new one, discussing what can be be done with the probable £80bn for HS2. I'm not against the project, but I think that the money can be put elsewhere, such as:

• An increase on the WCML fasts from 4 to 6 tracks, with slewing for the 2 new tracks to allow higher speeds.

• 
  
  How do you propose to do this without demolishing hundreds of homes built alongside the line (far more property demolitions than HS2)?
  
  

  [*]Quadrupling and wiring of the Chiltern Main Line.
  [*]An entirely electric XC network.

  
  Both good ideas and should hopefully happen in the future
  
  

  [*]Extra tracks at Welwyn Viaduct to uncork the bottleneck.

  
  Expensive and not easy due to the viaduct and tunnels only being 2 tracked. HS2 phase 2 removes the need in the long term.
  
  

  [*]Wiring of the entire SWT network after the Electric Spine, for compatibilty with the B'stoke-So'ton infrastructure and for Crossrail 2 compatibility.
  [*]Following on from that, DC=>AC conversion of the entire Southern Region.

  
  A gradual conversion of the DC trird rail network to AC is likely as the DC infrastructure becomes like expired so hopefully will happen in the long term regardless.
  
  

  [*]Replacement of the Pacers!

  
  going to happen one day with or without HS2 so don't see the connection :roll:
  
  

  [*]Double-tracking and wiring of the WoEML.

  
  Again another electrification scheme that is likely in the longer term as part of rolling stock cascades/replacement etc.

 

[HSTEd]

I am not sure there are really any major reasons to fully double track the WoEML since it is and will always be a secondary route.

It can't hope to take the primary route status away from the GWR routes to Exeter.
And for reference, I priced total electrification up at ~£20bn.

 

[AndyLandy]

I searched around for a similar thread to this and found it locked. So I'm opening a new one, discussing what can be be done with the probable £80bn for HS2. I'm not against the project, but I think that the money can be put elsewhere

If we (foolishly) decided not to invest in HS2, the best alternative I can come up with is:

• Electrify the Chiltern line, and probably throw down more tracks at the Marylebone end, so we can run 125mph trains between Marylebone and Birmingham (Either New Street or the Snow Hill route, or both)
• Electrify the MML, widening to four-tracks at least as far as Corby. Electrify the line between Sheffield and Stockport, extend MML services on to Manchester that way (a la Project Rio)
• Remove the WCML BHM and MAN services, use the paths for either more commuter trains, or more IC services to destinations further north.
• Increase the cost of fares on the WCML corridor to price people off the railway.

Cost-wise, it wouldn't surprise me if this came in for a significant cost of the HS2 budget.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not sure there are really any major reasons to fully double track the WoEML since it is and will always be a secondary route.

It can't hope to take the primary route status away from the GWR routes to Exeter.
And for reference, I priced total electrification up at ~£20bn.

The WEML is a funny one. There's clearly something wrong when we're running 10-car 158/9 formations into Waterloo in the peaks. That much capacity should surely mandate electrification, but the problem is the route west of Salisbury doesn't have the demand. It's probably not worth electrifying it without double-tracking it, but the total cost of doing so likely exceeds the benefit.

So, what do you do? I can think of four options:

1. Do nothing. Keep running diesels "under the wires" (over the rail?) as necessary.
2. Electrify the whole lot (at potentially great expense)
3. Split the service, run DMUs from Exeter to Salisbury and EMUs from Salisbury to London. Possibly keep running some peak-time DMUs all the way
4. Do something else.

Regarding #4, I wonder whether a bi-modal train design might work well here. Let's call it a "Class 244" Desiro.

Anyway, we've rather drifted off-topic. Perhaps this discussion should happen elsewhere?

 

[PR1Berske]

Do people who support HS2 agree that the Grade II* listed Star & Garter pub in Manchester should be sacrificed for it?

 

[Muzer]

If we (foolishly) decided not to invest in HS2, the best alternative I can come up with is:

• Electrify the Chiltern line, and probably throw down more tracks at the Marylebone end, so we can run 125mph trains between Marylebone and Birmingham (Either New Street or the Snow Hill route, or both)
• Electrify the MML, widening to four-tracks at least as far as Corby. Electrify the line between Sheffield and Stockport, extend MML services on to Manchester that way (a la Project Rio)
• Remove the WCML BHM and MAN services, use the paths for either more commuter trains, or more IC services to destinations further north.
• Increase the cost of fares on the WCML corridor to price people off the railway.

Cost-wise, it wouldn't surprise me if this came in for a significant cost of the HS2 budget.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The WEML is a funny one. There's clearly something wrong when we're running 10-car 158/9 formations into Waterloo in the peaks. That much capacity should surely mandate electrification, but the problem is the route west of Salisbury doesn't have the demand. It's probably not worth electrifying it without double-tracking it, but the total cost of doing so likely exceeds the benefit.

So, what do you do? I can think of four options:

1. Do nothing. Keep running diesels "under the wires" (over the rail?) as necessary.
2. Electrify the whole lot (at potentially great expense)
3. Split the service, run DMUs from Exeter to Salisbury and EMUs from Salisbury to London. Possibly keep running some peak-time DMUs all the way
4. Do something else.

Regarding #4, I wonder whether a bi-modal train design might work well here. Let's call it a "Class 244" Desiro.

Anyway, we've rather drifted off-topic. Perhaps this discussion should happen elsewhere?

Aside from the whole "it being a diesel" thing (and therefore more expensive to run than electrics), is there anything else wrong with option 1? The service, as anyone who uses/used it regularly will tell you, works extremely well as it is.

 

[HSTEd]

THat "new connections" document is really interesting.

Even suggests running trains to Nottingham from London via Grantham so Bingham can grab a service.
Also I imagine it would not be that much slower than the classic trains on the MML.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do people who support HS2 agree that the Grade II* listed Star & Garter pub in Manchester should be sacrificed for it?

Why not disassemble it and move it to a new location?

 

[Geezertronic]

Do people who support HS2 agree that the Grade II* listed Star & Garter pub in Manchester should be sacrificed for it?

If the licensee favours demolition as long as he gets another location at another site, who are we to complain? Plus you think HS2 is just about London to Birmingham so why would you care about Manchester?

The pub, now run independently of a brewery, was originally built in 1803 though is believed to have been knocked down in 1849 and rebuilt brick by brick just 100 yards away at its current location – opening in 1877

 

[brianthegiant]

Do people who support HS2 agree that the Grade II* listed Star & Garter pub in Manchester should be sacrificed for it?

Ah PR1Berske is now a heritage buildings expert..

If it's really that special (eg Grade 1 listed) then cast a slab underneath and slide it aside, if it isn't that special then it's probably not worth the effort.

How many grade 2 & 2* listed pubs/bars/restaurants are there in the UK PR1Berske?

the listed building system in the UK preserves buildings for national posterity at the expense of often private owners, many of them not very well off and many not through their own choice if the building is listed during their ownership, the whole system needs a rethink.

 

[WatcherZero]

Do people who support HS2 agree that the Grade II* listed Star & Garter pub in Manchester should be sacrificed for it?

HS2 goes nowhere near the pub, its on the opposite side of the station.


:roll:

 

[AndyLandy]

Aside from the whole "it being a diesel" thing (and therefore more expensive to run than electrics), is there anything else wrong with option 1? The service, as anyone who uses/used it regularly will tell you, works extremely well as it is.

Well, apart from the 90mph 159s tripping up the 100mph Desiros on the Fasts!

There's nothing explicitly wrong with continuing as-is, except there's obviously a keenness to avoid diesel traction wherever possible, and if we eventually do end up with wires to Salisbury, the issue will likely be raised again.

 

[HSTEd]

IIRC the project which threatens the Star and Garter is the Northern Hub.

"Localised" development such as the thing PR1Berske claims to support.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Well, apart from the 90mph 159s tripping up the 100mph Desiros on the Fasts!

There's nothing explicitly wrong with continuing as-is, except there's obviously a keenness to avoid diesel traction wherever possible, and if we eventually do end up with wires to Salisbury, the issue will likely be raised again.

This is why I think we're going to end up with a Regional Express Programme train - effectively IEP with a 380 cab limited to 110mph. Bi-mode with OHLE AC is the way to go for every new train from now on and we don't have much of a choice of other suitable trains to base it on. It would very nicely incorporate my IEP sleeper design too, so everyone would be happy.

Moving back to the Picadilly renders I'm very glad they've actually come out with station designs which aren't terrible. If the Victorians could make grand roof arches then there's no reason why we can't either.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is that all the concept renderers at this point? Hope there are more! Can you also link the site?

Managed to dig up the masterplan buried on MCC site.

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/downlo...r_piccadilly_strategic_regeneration_framework

Other thing to note is proposed alterations to existing station, lowering the existing concourse to street level and combining it with HS2 concourse (looks a bit like Waterloo international). A large plaza and main entrance where Gateway Tower currently stands. HS2 platforms proposed by HS2 Ltd moved slightly further into the city so they are staggered to existing platforms rather than parallel which brings the middle of the HS2 platforms closer to the concourse and finally two options on the redevelopment of the existing Metrolink platforms, Option 1 is rebuild platforms in existing site in the undercroft as two islands and removing the concrete box to open the space out, looks like a huge wine cellar. The second option is to build a new four platform station underneath the HS2 concourse with the lines tunneling under the plaza.

 

[Cambus731]

Do people who support HS2 agree that the Grade II* listed Star & Garter pub in Manchester should be sacrificed for it?

Yes, as it is a sacrifice worth making.
As it happens London would lose one of its best pubs, ie 'The Bree Louise' But it is a price worth paying.

I actually find it incredible to see people who are 'pro rail' being against HS2.
After decades of seeing governments of both colours treat the railway apallingly, along comes at last an ambitious idea which could transform the Railway of the UK, and yet I see pro-rail people coming down against it.

 

[GatwickDepress]

It seems that people want to make an omelette without breaking any eggs.

HS1 blends exceedingly well into the environment, as this image from the Flickr user rpmarks shows. HS2 should as well.

 

[Geezertronic]

HS1 blends exceedingly well into the environment, as this image from the Flickr user rpmarks shows. HS2 should as well.

The picture of HS1 next to a motorway (M20) hasn't been seen for a while considering the HS1 footprint is over half the size of an 8 lane motorway (3 lanes + hard shoulder each side). Even if HS2 was 4 tracks it would still be a smaller footprint than the M40

 

[Chris125]

Joeykins, the plan for that was to reduce HS2's footprint. By keeping the line on/near the WCML, there will be less complaints about HS2's route.

Any reduction in complaints from those in the Chilterns would be massively outweighed by those rightly upset by the huge increase in demolitions required and the number of houses affected by the increase in noise, while any reduction in 'footprint' would be outweighed by the creation of islands between the new and existing tracks.

That, plus the massive and ongoing disruption to rail and road traffic (especially in built-up areas) would make the cost, for a fraction of the economic benefits, wholly unjustifiable.

That's better - I'd seen some renderings where it was just a rectangle on stilts! Were those just renderings of where the station would be without showing its style, or did they actually change it after realising it looked awful?

Presuming you mean the renderings in the official HS2 documents, they are just artists impressions of what the station could look like and are deliberately quite bland - they are there to give people an idea of the size, shape and location of the station.

Chris

 

[PR1Berske]

HS2 goes nowhere near the pub, its on the opposite side of the station.


:roll:

The Manchester Evening News reports that the Grade II* listed pub is under threat from both HS2 and the new 15/16 platform proposal.

So to keep on topic, do supporters of HS2 support the demolition of a Grade II* listed building ?

 

[CalderRail]

Looks like MEN are talking out of their arse again then. Bit like PR1Berske.

 

[PR1Berske]

Ah PR1Berske is now a heritage buildings expert..

If it's really that special (eg Grade 1 listed) then cast a slab underneath and slide it aside, if it isn't that special then it's probably not worth the effort.

How many grade 2 & 2* listed pubs/bars/restaurants are there in the UK PR1Berske?

the listed building system in the UK preserves buildings for national posterity at the expense of often private owners, many of them not very well off and many not through their own choice if the building is listed during their ownership, the whole system needs a rethink.

An interesting response. "It's not HS2, its the rest of the system!"

Buildings are not listed out of a lottery or arbitrary decision making. There are long and drawn out decisions, often featuring many months of discussions within the DCMS going back and forth.

I would like to imagine that the Star & Garter was granted Listed status for a reason. I would not like to agree that it must be demolished on the grounds that a new railway must be built - that kind of attitude died out in the 1890s.

I've said before, I love the railways. I have walked the former Preston to Southport line to hunt for former railway stations. A "party trick" is to recite all the stops on the route from Colne to Blackpool South. I can even recognise different Classes given half a chance. But my love of the railways is not absolute. I can see what's wrong for the network - and HS2 is wrong.

 

[Chris125]

The Manchester Evening News reports that the Grade II* listed pub is under threat from both HS2 and the new 15/16 platform proposal.

So to keep on topic, do supporters of HS2 support the demolition of a Grade II* listed building ?

As far as I can see it's under threat from the need for extra capacity at Piccadilly in the next few years, which will be needed whether HS2 reaches Manchester in around two decades time or not.

It would be more accurate to ask if proponents of extra rail capacity support the relocation of a listed pub, whose setting would otherwise be compromised. I think most people would.

Chris

 

[JohnB57]

I actually find it incredible to see people who are 'pro rail' being against HS2.

It's possible to be neither for nor against HS2 you know, even as a rail enthusiast. My suspicion is based on an observation that the justification seems to have come before the design. In other words, the timings etc have had to be tweaked to give a favourable BCR, at the expense of funcionality or true commercial and social value.

But sometimes, the more reasoned posts on here begin to sway me, until this sort of thing happens...

Looks like MEN are talking out of their arse again then. Bit like PR1Berske.

Which takes me back to square one. Posts like this do nothing to further the argument for or against and actually undo much of the constructive argument posted in favour of HS2. Shame really.