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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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jon0844

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I think the suggestion was a joke, but I can well believe that the Government was lobbied to introduce the same security for Eurostar, so as not to give it an advantage.

As it happens, it was a good idea but perhaps done for the wrong reasons.
 
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HowardGWR

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Have you ever used the Tube or bus service, especially during the peak? Such a scheme would be completely unworkable.

That was the point of my post (why was that not obvious?). Why is it acceptable to expose the risk to thousands of people at Waterloo shuffling through the tunnels to the Bakerloo, Northern, etc, but not to a few hundred on a Eurostar? I've done these transfers in the peak and you are just a sitting duck. The authorities must know this.

The answer on Eurostar is as clearly as HSTEd pointed out. There can be no other explanation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the suggestion was a joke, but I can well believe that the Government was lobbied to introduce the same security for Eurostar, so as not to give it an advantage.

As it happens, it was a good idea but perhaps done for the wrong reasons.

Indeed, see my last posting. What was the 'good idea' exactly?
 

JohnB57

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Why is it acceptable to expose the risk to thousands of people at Waterloo shuffling through the tunnels to the Bakerloo, Northern, etc, but not to a few hundred on a Eurostar?
You're suggesting that because security checks are clearly impossible on mass transit systems such as London's, that would be sufficient reason to abandon them where they are possible and, arguably, desirable just because the risk affects fewer people?

Maybe we should also get rid of them for commuter flights with fewer than, say, a hundred passengers as that's not many people at all is it?
 

edwin_m

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There are plenty of crowded places where detonating a bomb would kill everyone within a certain range, depending on the power of the bomb. Not all of these are railway-related, see Boston Marathon for example. Attempting to protect the railway locations would just mean the terrorist finding a softer target and causing just as much mayhem there. In terms of causing terror, hitting a random crowd rather than a "privileged" group such as rail users may even be more effective because of the "could have been me" factor. Similar arguments apply to other forms of attack - there are also plenty of busy enclosed spaces not associated with the railway.

It would be very difficult to cause a larger number of casualties by a similar attack on a train. Passengers are more widely spaced out on board than in other places. Derailment would be much easier with a bomb on the track than on the train, and even high-speed derailments have few casualties unless there is an exacerbating factor such as at Eschede. I would expect the security authorities and the rail industry to be very aware of this type of threat.

Air travel is in a different situation. A relatively small and simple device can bring down an aircraft, almost always killing all on board and perhaps also some on the ground. There is also the possibility of another 9/11-type attack. Hence access to passenger aircraft is quite rightly strictly controlled.

Road vehicles also present a tempting means of attack, and have been used many times over the years, so am glad to see that major stations and other possible targets are being fitted with strengthened bollards to reduce the consequences should this happen.

I'm not saying that attacks on trains are totally impossible, and there is always the risk of looking back and fighting the last war. However because of the soft target factor I'd suggest that the net benefit to public safety of security checks on Eurostar is negligible.
 

HSTEd

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You're suggesting that because security checks are clearly impossible on mass transit systems such as London's, that would be sufficient reason to abandon them where they are possible and, arguably, desirable just because the risk affects fewer people?

Maybe we should also get rid of them for commuter flights with fewer than, say, a hundred passengers as that's not many people at all is it?

A regional sized jet is still one of the most powerful non nuclear weapons at humanity's disposal.
For instance, a Bombardier CRJ900 series airliner with 90 seats has an MTOW of something like 38300kg. Assuming it falls into "terrorist" control some time after the start of the flight it could still mass something in the region of 38t.
Its maximum cruise speed is something approaching 880km/h at altitude, which means it will likely maintain atleast that speed in a steep dive all the way to ground level.

880km/h is approximately 244 metres per second, meaning that the ~38t airliner impacts with approximately 1.14GJ of kinetic energy, and delivers a payload of something like 8000kg (assuming some fuel was already burned to take off) of Jet A to the target area.

8t of Jet A has a calorific value of roughly 320GJ, and can be expected to combust relatively rapidly after impact, if not in seconds then in single-digit minutes.

The impact alone is 300kg of TNT (and in the form of a kinetic penetrator rather than an actual explosion), and when this is mixed with the fuel yield.... you can deliver massive damage to the target area.

Even a detonation on a plane soon after takeoff could scatter vast masses of flaming debris all over some suprisingly heavily populated areas.

It is difficult to concieve of a similar situation that will lead to such widespread destruction from "terrorists" getting either weapons or explosives onto a train.
 
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You're suggesting that because security checks are clearly impossible on mass transit systems such as London's, that would be sufficient reason to abandon them where they are possible and, arguably, desirable just because the risk affects fewer people?

Maybe we should also get rid of them for commuter flights with fewer than, say, a hundred passengers as that's not many people at all is it?

I think what is desirable is that security resources are used in the most effective way to stop an attack. This is probably by spending it on intelligence. The excellent posts by others above outline why it is of negligible benefit to have them for (a few) trains and why they are still necessary for air travel.
The benefit of increased convenience and time saving for passengers is of secondary importance but is worth noting for this thread regarding the possible viability of HS2-HS1 services.
Does anyone know which countries use security checks for high speed services? I know they do in Spain (between Malaga and Madrid at least). But I was wondering about France, Germany and Japan?
Thanks!
 

RichmondCommu

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That was the point of my post (why was that not obvious?). Why is it acceptable to expose the risk to thousands of people at Waterloo shuffling through the tunnels to the Bakerloo, Northern, etc, but not to a few hundred on a Eurostar? I've done these transfers in the peak and you are just a sitting duck. The authorities must know this.

The answer on Eurostar is as clearly as HSTEd pointed out. There can be no other explanation.

I use the Tube every day to get to work and I accept that it’s physically impossible to search everyone using the Tube but like millions of others I'm prepared to take the risk. Yes we Londoners are "sitting ducks" but why should we let the terrorists win? The authorities are clearly aware of the risks but realistically cannot do anymore without affecting economic and social activity.

In terms of your feedback regarding the July bombings I'm sure Al Qaeda will take your comments on board. Perhaps next time they will kill more of us but that won't stop people wanting to live and work in this great city.

However Eurostar is completely different. The trains are quite rightly considered to be a high profile target for terrorists and the security checks are more than justified. Fortunately our Government doesn't consider a few dozen innocent people to be expendable, as was suggested by posters on this thread. Not only that but the security checks are no more of an inconvenience then they are at airports. I'm sorry but the conspiracy theories posted on here are absolute nonsense and have no basis what so ever.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone know which countries use security checks for high speed services? I know they do in Spain (between Malaga and Madrid at least). But I was wondering about France, Germany and Japan?
Thanks!

The difference being that Japan and Germany do not make questionable foreign policy decisions, in particular interference in the Middle East. And in respect of France (which does occasionally poke its nose into other peoples business) the LGV is not considered to be a high profile target other than when Carlos the Jackal was 'at large'.
 
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gordonthemoron

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Does anyone know which countries use security checks for high speed services? I know they do in Spain (between Malaga and Madrid at least). But I was wondering about France, Germany and Japan?
Thanks!

Turkey do security checks for High Speed services, but the checks are rather more basic than E* and the area the passengers congregate in after security is just a (low) fenced off area. US sort of do a check on North East corridor services, but IIRC it's just an ID check
 

tbtc

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Any chance we could get back to discussing trains, rather than turning this into an "If I wanted to kill hundreds of people..." thread?

There's justification for a thread about security but maybe a seperate thread?
 

gordonthemoron

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OK, what will become of the Pendolinos once HS2 phase 1 opens? Will they use it or will they stay on their existing routes or be cascaded elsewhere?
 

edwin_m

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Even at 140mph Pendolinos wouldn't be fast enough to use HS2, as running all trains at the same speed is essential to maximise capacity. Their entrance steps would be too great a distance from the platforms which will be to Euro-standard rather than British dimensions.

They will be around 25 years old when HS2 phase 1 opens, so will probably work out their remaining time on the fastest remaining WCML duties. I guess if the IC225 sets are still around the Pendolinos might replace them on ECML until the opening of HS2 Phase 2 removes most of the fast trains from there too. It's remotely possible they might go to a future West of England electrification if it was happening about that time.
 

tbtc

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390s still needed for WCML places not on the HS2 route (Northampton, Coventry, Stoke etc), plenty of fast services needed on the Milton Keynes corridor even if they don't all run to Glasgow/ Manchester/ Liverpool etc.

As Edwin M says, there's potential 225 replacement to consider too (since we are talking twenty years time), assuming that electric IEP doesn't directly replace 225s.
 

joeykins82

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My assumption is that the pendos will still operate the 125mph services up the WCML with more calling at the intermediate stations and a broader range of destinations off the mainline complete with requisite electrification schemes. 1tph to Shrewsbury, Chester, Blackpool North (already being electrified), Barrow-in-Furness (perhaps alternating hourly services with Windermere) would be the likely candidates.

It's also possible that with the total electrification of the Manchester to Bournemouth route and likely electrification of the remainder of the XC long-distance routes by the time HS2 is operational that the pendos could be cascaded there.
 
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What would be the point of direct services from Shrewsbury & Blackpool when it will be so much quicker to change at Crewe/Preston?
 

joeykins82

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Well if you're going to continue to run 8tph out of Euston once Birmingham and Manchester have frequent captive HS2 services and the other major population centres north of the HS2-WCML junction points are served by classic compatible stock why not provide direct London services to places like Telford whilst still providing sufficient capacity for Coventry/Nuneaton/MKC by increasing the number of tph that call there?

And electrifying the ~35 miles from Carnforth to Barrow would allow the conversion of TPE's service from Manchester Airport as well so it's not that ludicrous a proposition.
 

gordonthemoron

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Well if you're going to continue to run 8tph out of Euston once Birmingham and Manchester have frequent captive HS2 services and the other major population centres north of the HS2-WCML junction points are served by classic compatible stock why not provide direct London services to places like Telford whilst still providing sufficient capacity for Coventry/Nuneaton/MKC by increasing the number of tph that call there?

And electrifying the ~35 miles from Carnforth to Barrow would allow the conversion of TPE's service from Manchester Airport as well so it's not that ludicrous a proposition.

HS2 is supposed to free capacity on WCML, filling the existing Virgin slots with new long distance destinations does not sound like a good idea, unless all services (including peak in both directions) serve Milton Keynes Central
 

joeykins82

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I think they will; the 125mph WCML franchise will look more like the long-distance arm of FGW with everything calling at MKC. Northampton could/should get a 110mph express service (same as the current KX-Cambridge) in addition to the inter-urban service for connecting to the regional services from MKC/Rugby.
 

The Ham

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HS2 is supposed to free capacity on WCML, filling the existing Virgin slots with new long distance destinations does not sound like a good idea, unless all services (including peak in both directions) serve Milton Keynes Central

The thing is there will still be demand for service to run a long way, it will just be that the passengers will only travel shorter distances along it. Therefore a train running London to Manchester will still be busy, but with some people traveling on the southern section, some over the middle sections and yet more over the northern sections.

By running the services over a long distance it avoids the need to have trains turning around at busy stations when there is no need to.
 
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Yet you are always moaning about places wanting direct London services tbtc.

It would be nice for once if you actually held an opinion and not just snipe at everyone else's posts.:roll:

It isn't even faster to change at Rugby anyhow...
 

Chris125

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You can get an idea of how services may change from the table in this document - the changes to frequency and stopping patterns would be far-reaching, with today's fast line services being aimed much more at intermediate traffic from places like Rugby and Milton Keynes for example. This in turn would relieve the slow lines and potentially reduce journey times for some as well.

Chris
 
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It is also complete fiction - in that document Northampton sees a reduction in services compared to now nevermind from the May '14 boost.
 

Geezertronic

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It is also complete fiction - in that document Northampton sees a reduction in services compared to now nevermind from the May '14 boost.

Hasn't it already been suggested that Northampton sees an inflated number of services anyway due to the fact that LM have to run their trains via Northampton? Won't Northampton see a reduction in services when the LM 110mph services are allowed to run through Weedon (if they don't already)?
 

Chris125

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It is also complete fiction - in that document Northampton sees a reduction in services compared to now nevermind from the May '14 boost.

It might only be for modelling purposes but I fail to see how a reduction in services makes it 'a complete fiction' - where service frequency and stopping patterns are influenced more by operational necessity than passenger demand there will always be the potential for change, both positive and negative. Given the need to make better use of WCML capacity and free up room for more freight this will inevitably effect Northampton.

That said, looking at the table 32 slow services and 13 fast (calling only at MKC and Watford) from Northampton to Euston per day with the same or similar heading back north does not strike me as inadequate, with the added benefit for longer distance travellers of having a much wider choice of fast line services when changing at Rugby and MKC.

Chris
 
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Hasn't it already been suggested that Northampton sees an inflated number of services anyway due to the fact that LM have to run their trains via Northampton? Won't Northampton see a reduction in services when the LM 110mph services are allowed to run through Weedon (if they don't already)?

Where did you get this stupid (and wholly incorrect) idea from? LM/CT ran 3tph to Northampton years before the TV services kicked in. LM have been running 110mph services since December and there has been no reduction to Northampton and as previously mentioned from May '14 there will be 3 AM and 4 PM (or vice versa) additional peak trains for Northampton commuters. Northampton and MK commuters are LMs two key flows on the ex-Silverlink services.

It might only be for modelling purposes but I fail to see how a reduction in services makes it 'a complete fiction' - where service frequency and stopping patterns are influenced more by operational necessity than passenger demand there will always be the potential for change, both positive and negative. Given the need to make better use of WCML capacity and free up room for more freight this will inevitably effect Northampton.

That said, looking at the table 32 slow services and 13 fast (calling only at MKC and Watford) from Northampton to Euston per day with the same or similar heading back north does not strike me as inadequate, with the added benefit for longer distance travellers of having a much wider choice of fast line services when changing at Rugby and MKC.

Chris

The whole 'making better use of WCML capacity (sic)' is supposed to be about providing more services to the likes of Northampton and faster services to the likes of Hemel. When Adonis unveiled HS2, the original documents actually had an ICWC hourly service to Northampton non-stop which has since been dropped.

You do remember the recent '10 busiest services in the south east' ? Two of which were Northampton trains. Given how busy the services are currently and the predicted growth in rail use (used to justify HS2 in the first place), you don't see the contradiction in suggesting less capacity on the route?

Currently there is 9tph New Street - International which HS2 supporters tell use is 'at capacity' yet HS2 ltd suggest 12tph with an even more unven calling pattern...
 
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