High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Philip Elliott]

I was setting the record straight for what was a baseless assumption.

 

[cle]

That document is interesting. Congleton back in business!

Also Salford Central calls - interesting!

Not much intercity for Watford Junction though.

 

[Chris125]

The whole 'making better use of WCML capacity (sic)' is supposed to be about providing more services to the likes of Northampton and faster services to the likes of Hemel.

Since when? Making the best use of the available capacity means just that, it's never meant everywhere can have faster and more frequent services because that isn't making the best use of it.

You do remember the recent '10 busiest services in the south east' ? Two of which were Northampton trains. Given how busy the services are currently and the predicted growth in rail use (used to justify HS2 in the first place), you don't see the contradiction in suggesting less capacity on the route?

Unless they were all full leaving Northampton I don't see any contradiction at all, having most fast line services call at Milton Keynes for example will help shift traffic away from those slow line services while improving journey times.

Chris

 

[gordonthemoron]

also, Polesworth appears to be set for reopening

 

[Muzer]

It's also possible that with the total electrification of the Manchester to Bournemouth route and likely electrification of the remainder of the XC long-distance routes by the time HS2 is operational that the pendos could be cascaded there.

Do you think that Pendos could be modified to go on the third-rail section between Southampton and Bournemouth (at lower speed, obviously) or have I missed an announcement?

 

[HSTEd]

Do you think that Pendos could be modified to go on the third-rail section between Southampton and Bournemouth (at lower speed, obviously) or have I missed an announcement?

Electric Spine is going to see conversion between Bournemouth and either Southampton or Poole from 750V third rail to 25kV AC.
To ease power supply issues, allow expansion of freight operations and because it is apparently cheaper to convert than to renew the current high power 750V installation.

 

[Muzer]

Electric Spine is going to see conversion between Bournemouth and either Southampton or Poole from 750V third rail to 25kV AC.
To ease power supply issues, allow expansion of freight operations and because it is apparently cheaper to convert than to renew the current high power 750V installation.

Is it? I thought electric spine went only as far as Southampton. That's (good) news to me!

 

[HSTEd]

Is it? I thought electric spine went only as far as Southampton. That's (good) news to me!

Oh wait, sorry, I messed up.

I got confused between Bournemouth and Basingstoke.....
(in my defence it is 0432...).

I do believe that conversion to Bournemouth or even Weymouth has been floated as an add-on however, as it would rather nicely take care of that entire "arm" of the system in one move.

 

[DW54]

Oh wait, sorry, I messed up.

I got confused between Bournemouth and Basingstoke.....
(in my defence it is 0432...).

I do believe that conversion to Bournemouth or even Weymouth has been floated as an add-on however, as it would rather nicely take care of that entire "arm" of the system in one move.

Not quite - there are coastal services to the east of Southampton, which initially means voltage changeover north of the junction, and later would require dual voltage stock on the coastal services. But yes, as I read the various reports, the Wessex system has reached the stage where renewals should be planned, and there is a strong argument to make this an early candidate for AC re-electrification.

 

[Ironside]

Parliament to debate paving bill on the 26/6/13. And same day to followed on by motions on the HS2 phase 1 hybrid bill (this is NOT the bill proper): http://t.co/GtKEnHsM0s

 

[Metrailway]

Surprise, surprise, the budget for HS2 has increased:

The proposed budget for the HS2 railway has risen by nearly £10bn to more than £40bn, the transport minister has said.

Patrick McLoughlin told the Commons the new projected cost of £42.6bn, up from £33bn, would include a large "contingency" fund. He said the final cost could be lower than the new estimate, but said revising the figure was "right". Some Conservative MPs are expected to vote against the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill later. The new high-speed railway line is intended to link London to Birmingham by 2026, with branches to Manchester and Leeds, via Sheffield, planned by 2032. The first phase budget is now £21.4bn, with £21.2bn for phase two. These figures include a contingency fund of £14.4bn across the scheme. (See More)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Aye rightly so they need baxk up money.

 

[Ironside]

Attempt to alter and delay paving bill fails in parliment today by 37 against 325 votes.

 

[Geezertronic]

What do you expect when they have to change the plans all the time to accomodate the requirements of the locals.

 

[Ironside]

And now have voted in favour of the Paving Bill by 330 to 27! Brilliant news! A big thumbs up for HS2 from parliament.

 

[The Decapod]

A rise in the estimated cost nearly a quarter at a very early stage in the project. If it wasn't one already, HS2 would be turning into a white elephant!

 

[brianthegiant]

There are much more pointless things we could spend £42B on,
trident replacement for example (against what specific threat exactly?).

considering much of our current rail network sits on/under/within civil engineering from 150 years ago and is still going strong. What else can you spend £42B on that might conceivably still be around in 150 years?

 

[YorkshireBear]

A rise in the estimated cost nearly a quarter at a very early stage in the project. If it wasn't one already, HS2 would be turning into a white elephant!

No not a rise in estimated cost. A rise in budget to allow 14 billion for contingency. The estimated cost is still the same as the secretary for state said in parliament.

 

[Manchester77]

Healthcare, local government, higher education...

I do think HS2 is a worthy project but it worries me how the cost seems to be increasing at virtually every spending review, budget and Christmas (over exaggerating btw )

 

[HSTEd]

The contingency does seem to be inordinately large now.

I think they are just setting it up to come in "under budget" to get a positive spin from it.

 

[Darren R]

I watched most of the 'debate' on BBC Parliament (It was either that or the tennis!) and I was really rather surprised at the poor quality of much of what was being raised. A lot of people in areas affected have genuine concerns, and there is a serious debate to be had. Pity that's not what happened in the Commons though. There was a really shocking level of ignorance being shown, both in terms of factual content and just basic common sense. And an awful lot of spurious figures being quoted!

Highlights included the following:

One MP demanded that a station be built at Crewe as an interchange (similar to that in the detailed plans, perhaps?)

Another stated that HS2 would result in Stoke-on-Trent having just three through trains to London per day unless the town had its own HS2 station.

The Green Party MP surprisingly also spoke against it on the grounds that it was a "Robin Hood project" which would steal from the poor to pay the rich.

A backbench Tory country squire said that if the problem that HS2 is designed to redress is overcrowding on current train services "then why don't they just put the price up to force people off?"

A Labour backbencher was whistful for the time that "BR ran 140mph trains on the East Coast Main Line" taking just three and a half hours from London to Edinburgh. (Is there any truth in that? He didn't specify when he was talking about though.) He argued that if BR could do that 'back in the day' we could do it now and not need HS2 as a result.

Another Conservative backbencher reasoned that a motorway or tube extension has junctions or stations closely spaced, meaning everyone en route benefits. Why couldn't HS2 be the same?

Another Tory Squire commented that if the problem was overcrowding, why don't we just shift more traffic "on to the newly-electrified West Coast Main Line?"

Yet another Tory backbencher from the Home Counties pointed to research that showed that jobs in the North would be more likely to be lost to the London region as a result of decent transport links with the capital. He was interrupted by the Labour MP for Warrington who, in the best piece of reductio ad absurdum I've ever heard, replied: "Then why don't we ensure the North's enduring prosperity by closing the M6 and West Coast Main Line!" The point was lost on the Honourable Gentleman.

Several government backbenchers used some very spurious statistics against the proposals. Several times it was stated that the railways carried 550 million passengers last year, or 1.5 million each day. This apparently proved that 58 million people don't use the railways at all, so "why should 99% of the population pay for something only used by 1%?"

But undoubdtedly the laugh-out-loud moment for me came when a Welsh MP interrupted a very exasperated-looking Transport Secretary to announce to the world that he would definitely be voting against, no matter what, on the grounds that it didn't go to Wales. That has to be the ultimate in reverse Nimbyism!

 

[Ironside]

"He was interrupted by the Labour MP for Warrington who, in the best piece of reductio ad absurdum I've ever heard, replied: "Then why don't we ensure the North's enduring prosperity by closing the M6 and West Coast Main Line!" The point was lost on the Honourable Gentleman."

Loved that bit but alot of the other parts with desperate poorly made points were a bit annoying but I suppose those mps who lave the line come through there constituency but no station have to say something or they will loose there seat.

Re the ECML, maybe he was using the max speed capabilities of class 43 trains and the parts of line that could be run at 140 mph, and ignored all the practicalities of running trains at those speeds to get a time of 3 1/2 hour London to Edinburg times.

 

[pablo]

One MP demanded that a station be built at Crewe as an interchange (similar to that in the detailed plans, perhaps?)

Erm, the 'plans' don't include a station at Crewe. HS2 dives under. A spur takes CCs into the existing station. This is what the man is on about:
ignored by HS2 Ltd. https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-for-crewe.pdf

 

[YorkshireBear]

What hope do we have.

 

[D365]

What hope do we have.

Your current signature is most relevant at this moment!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Your current signature is most relevant at this moment!

Yep, case in point really.

 

[pablo]

The inflated contigency is to cover the cost of including a new station at Crewe.....

 

[gordonthemoron]

You do wonder at the intelectual capacity of MPs

 

[Darren R]

Erm, the 'plans' don't include a station at Crewe. HS2 dives under. A spur takes CCs into the existing station. This is what the man is on about:
ignored by HS2 Ltd. https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-for-crewe.pdf

My mistake - perhaps I should have been an MP! I only looked at the detailed plans for the station area, saw the twin tunnels immediately below the present station and didn't look closely enough!

I can't remember which MP raised the issue, but he/she (I think the latter) probably has a good point in this case. I know it would be add to the cost, but it does seem somewhat illogical to pass immediately below such a major tranport interchange and not have platforms. Perhaps this is something which will be tweeked before construction begins.

Incidentally the link provided doesn't seem to take you anywhere much - here is the link to the maps:

https://www.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-initial-preferred-route-plan-and-profile-maps

I'm presuming that it's already been provided, but I ain't wading through 200+ pages on this topic to check!

 

[RichmondCommu]

The contingency does seem to be inordinately large now.

I think they are just setting it up to come in "under budget" to get a positive spin from it.

The concern is that the Government is now trying to turn HS2 into a 'show piece' event which if correct is bad news for tax payers.