High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Ironside]

It is very simple, TEN-T is not about building new lines, the rail component of TEN-T is about upgrading and harmonising existing infrastructure to remove barriers to international rail travel. It's about increasing competition, lowering costs, improving reliability and moving a lot of freight off the road onto rail.

The EU could not and would not tell a member state to build an entirely new passenger line. HS2 is not part of TEN-T and likely never will be.

Perhaps one day, after HS2 is operational and therefore more freight capacity is available on the WCML, the UK could apply for EU funds to improve the WCML using the argument of bringing it in line with the TEN-T objectives. The 25kV ohle is already there, ERTMS is scheduled, the only thing that could still be done is modernise its loading gauge to continental standards so a single freight train could travel from let's say Genoa to Birmingham.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for clarifying Ten-T.


Chris, that makes more sence than my suggestion. I do hope that the current Euston station can get a swanky upgrade eventually with a return of the Euston arch.

 

[JohnCarlson]

sorry if I misrepresented you.

There is a fascinating article in this month's 'Todays Railways: Europe" on the French development of low-cost TGV. 'Pile it high, sell it cheap' describes it exactly. By fitting coupled units entirely with duplex stock, the French can get over 1,400 on each train. Fares are cut to below 90 euros standard, and as low as 20 euros advance - though you have to pay extra for a power socket by your seat; or to take more than one 'standard' bag on board.

But the basic dynamic of the business model is that train units will cover over 3,000 km a day on average. In English terms, this would imply that each train and crew would do five return trips from Manchester to Euston in a daily shift; where I suspect the current standard would be two.

I would guess that if you could travel off-peak from Manchester to Euston high-speed for £15-20 advance return, it would be easy to fill every train with end-to-end passengers.

No problem. These things happen on forums.

I bought the magazine you mention and it was a good read. Thanks

I might start buying it in future.

Best

John

 

[snowball]

The organisations that have been working on the restoration of the Chesterfield Canal, a project that has been going on for many years with the support of half a dozen local authorities, are concerned that the HS2 route appears on the face of it to have been selected in ignorance or disregard of the project.

I've just found this video about it.

Googling "HS2 Chesterfield canal" finds a number of other references.

 

[Ironside]

The organisations that have been working on the restoration of the Chesterfield Canal, a project that has been going on for many years with the support of half a dozen local authorities, are concerned that the HS2 route appears on the face of it to have been selected in ignorance or disregard of the project.

I've just found this video about it.

Googling "HS2 Chesterfield canal" finds a number of other references.

Good video with clear points well made. As I understand HS2 ltd are now aware that they need to talk to the Cheterfield Canal society ( or whoever is in charge). It shouldn't be too difficult to open the chequebook to sort out a sensible Eco friendly solution.

 

[LE Greys]

Good video with clear points well made. As I understand HS2 ltd are now aware that they need to talk to the Cheterfield Canal society ( or whoever is in charge). It shouldn't be too difficult to open the chequebook to sort out a sensible Eco friendly solution.

Looking at the maps in the link below, it should be possible to make a few minor diversions to the canal alignment. The problem is keeping it level. Fortunately, there will be a massive ammount of earthworks associated with HS2, so they should be able to provide plenty of material for levelling things up. Railways and canals share the same alignments in many places, Watford Gap and the Kennet & Avon being the most noteable.

http://www.chesterfield-canal-trust.org.uk/index.php/latest-news/general-news/414-maps-of-hs2-and-the-chesterfield-canal

 

[bangor-toad]

Good video with clear points well made. As I understand HS2 ltd are now aware that they need to talk to the Cheterfield Canal society ( or whoever is in charge). It shouldn't be too difficult to open the chequebook to sort out a sensible Eco friendly solution.

I think that HS2 will try to sort something out. I think it's unlikely that the line of HS2 will be changed but it should be possible to get the path of a new canal laid in place as part of the same earthworks.
I don't know the people restoring the canal but whilst some may be unhappy about some changes hopefully they can accept these and use that to get more (or even all!) of the canal route reinstated.

If this were a new motorway there is now a legal obligation to ensure canal routes aren't severed.
This followed on from the insanity of what happened when the M6 Toll was built Wikipedia link

Cheers,
Jason

 

[brianthegiant]

Looks like Cemex have taken machinery to site to extend their quarrying now to land immediately East of the Southern end of Trent Junction. Aggregates go via artic hauler, conveyor & barge to concrete plant at Attenborough.
I guess they figure they should extract as much gravel as they can before the land gets CPO'd (compulsory purchase order).

 

[gordonthemoron]

Am I mistaken, or has demolition work already started at the HS2 station site in manchester?

 

[dggar]

Am I mistaken, or has demolition work already started at the HS2 station site in manchester?

Manchester does not have an HS2 station.

There is some demolition work on the roof of the Mayfield Station area as it is said to be unsafe. This is on the opposite side of the tracks to where the HS2 station is planned to be.

 

[Ivo]

An update on Euston: The former "demolish and rebuild" station plan has been dropped in favour of simple expansion. This is in response to a series of criticisms of the idea, most obviously from Camden Council.

BBC Article

Plans to demolish and rebuild the UK's sixth-busiest railway station for the HS2 high-speed project have been dropped.

North London's Euston station will now be developed by improving the existing station.

A total of 11 new platforms for high-speed trains will built around the existing platforms.

The £16.3bn London to Birmingham section of the rail project aims to be running by 2026.

The updated proposals were announced by the HS2 Ltd company, responsible for developing and promoting the first phase of the project.

Camden Council, in north London, had voiced concerns not only about the station plans but also proposals for the area around the station.

Euston currently has 18 platforms, with the revised plan retaining platforms 1-15, apart from 9 and 10 which will go to allow for the lengthening of adjacent platforms.

The revised plan also includes a new Euston Tube station ticket hall and a sub-surface pedestrian link between Euston and the nearby Euston Square Underground station.

HS2 Ltd chief Alison Munro said: "HS2 will be an engine for growth that supports the creation of thousands of jobs for Londoners, provides extra space on the existing lines for more commuter services, and improved connectivity with our great northern cities.

"We have identified an option that delivers great opportunities for the area while minimising the potential effects on local communities in Camden and on passengers.

"Economic work done as part of Camden Council's plan for the area has demonstrated that there is a case for major redevelopment with the potential for commercial investment, and we want to look at these opportunities with Camden."

 

[nerd]

It was always problematic for HS2 how much time and money was being expended rebuilding the whole of Euston, rather than specfiically on the HS line and its stations. This is welcome, as HS2 are concentrating specifically on the core business.

What appears possibly to be lost at the moment is the capability for a sub-surface link from HS2 at Euston across the HS1 ant St Pancras. It seems that this would now be conditional on the construction of Crossrail 2 - which currently looks only able to happen after HS2 Phase 2 opens.

HS2 set to abandon complete rebuild of Euston

PLANS to rebuild Euston station in London to accommodate HS2 are set to be scaled down, partly in response to determined opposition in the London Borough of Camden.

Government-owned developer HS2 Ltd said that under its latest proposals Euston will not be completely rebuilt. Instead, the station would be extended by the addition of High Speed platforms in time for the opening of the first section between London and Birmingham in 2026.

HS2 revealed that it had found 'most of the benefits for Euston could be achieved without having to knock down and rebuild the entire station'.

It explained: 'Further work on design and engineering has found the project can deliver wide-ranging opportunities and improvements on time but without the disruption caused by lowering all of the platforms into the ground, and in doing so achieve best value for money for taxpayers.

'This option, developed partly in response to concerns from the community about the potential disruption caused by redevelopment that would have taken more than a decade, would obviate the need to rebuild all the existing platforms. This would lead to less disruption for passengers as the station could continue to operate mostly as normal rather than having to move services from old platforms to new ones while platforms are being progressively demolished and rebuilt.'

However, HS2 also emphasised that 'the proposals would still see the station revitalised for passengers and with potential for new homes, offices and shops above. Completing construction by 2026 will unlock the line-wide benefits as soon as practicable'.

The new proposals, to be included in the draft environmental statement for the first phase of HS2 which is due to be published for consultation within the next couple of months, suggest that Euston will now keep most of its present domestic platforms. However, some will be lengthened and their total will come down from 18 to 13. There would also be 11 new High Speed platforms on the western side of the site.

Other developments would include a new, combined concourse and façade, better connections with the Underground including a new Underground ticket hall, a sub-surface pedestrian link between Euston and Euston Square Underground stations and new east-west pedestrian routes across the station. However, the announcement does not mention the possible need to make longer-term provision for Crossrail 2, which could include a new subsurface station linking Euston with St Pancras and King's Cross.

HS2 Ltd chief executive Alison Munro said: “HS2 will be an engine for growth. In response to community concerns about the potential disruption caused by the redevelopment of Euston station, and following more work done by our engineers to find the best way to deliver best value for taxpayers, we have identified an option that delivers great opportunities for the area while minimising the potential effects on local communities in Camden and on passengers.

“We are looking at an option which would see new platforms built as part of an integrated, redeveloped station with a combined concourse, new western entrance and improved facilities across the integrated terminus.

“Economic work done as part of Camden Council’s plan for the area has demonstrated that there is a case for major redevelopment with the potential for commercial investment, and we want to look at these opportunities with Camden. We also realise the importance Camden Council places on over-station development, and our proposal for Euston enables this, with potential for future homes, businesses and open space.

“Whatever option is adopted, Euston would be the gateway to the Midlands and North with improved facilities for passengers and better connections with the Underground

 

[HSTEd]

So now people travelling on HS2 will arrive into aging 60s brutalism.

Wonderful.

 

[WatcherZero]

So 18-5 +11, net increase of 6 platforms?

 

[Ironside]

So now people travelling on HS2 will arrive into aging 60s brutalism.

Wonderful.

Hopefully they can at least do a good job with the new part of the station and then rebuild the 60's bit when they have the high speed bit running, or will the station got busier making it more difficult.

 

[hwl]

It was always problematic for HS2 how much time and money was being expended rebuilding the whole of Euston, rather than specfiically on the HS line and its stations. This is welcome, as HS2 are concentrating specifically on the core business.

What appears possibly to be lost at the moment is the capability for a sub-surface link from HS2 at Euston across the HS1 ant St Pancras. It seems that this would now be conditional on the construction of Crossrail 2 - which currently looks only able to happen after HS2 Phase 2 opens.

CR2: Why only after HS2 completion?
Surely it is easier to construct both at once (especially as the new Euston HS2 plan is probably much quicker to construct)?
The HS2 works will require serious amounts of spoil removal (best done by rail to reduce vehicle movements, use the old carriage shed as a staging area?) and the HS2 site could act as a suitable launching point for TBMs for CR2 with spoil from the tunnelling leaving by rail from there.

Could the new underground ticket hall imply sorting it out for CR2 during the construction of HS2, while HS2 continuing to avoiding trying to have anything to do with CR2? (If they sort the Euston Road mega CR2 station is there any need to do the HS1-HS2 link work initially?

The new plan seems to have irritated Camden councillors more than the old one.

 

[swt_passenger]

So now people travelling on HS2 will arrive into aging 60s brutalism.

Other developments would include a new, combined concourse and façade, better connections with the Underground including a new Underground ticket hall, a sub-surface pedestrian link between Euston and Euston Square Underground stations and new east-west pedestrian routes across the station.

You missed a bit...

 

[nerd]

CR2: Why only after HS2 completion?
Surely it is easier to construct both at once (especially as the new Euston HS2 plan is probably much quicker to construct)?
The HS2 works will require serious amounts of spoil removal (best done by rail to reduce vehicle movements, use the old carriage shed as a staging area?) and the HS2 site could act as a suitable launching point for TBMs for CR2 with spoil from the tunnelling leaving by rail from there.

Could the new underground ticket hall imply sorting it out for CR2 during the construction of HS2, while HS2 continuing to avoiding trying to have anything to do with CR2? (If they sort the Euston Road mega CR2 station is there any need to do the HS1-HS2 link work initially?

The new plan seems to have irritated Camden councillors more than the old one.

The issue is who will pay for Crossrail 2? I can't see there being any funding from Westminster until HS2 is complete; at least as far as Phase 2, and possibly Phase 3 as well. Of course, if the Mayor is able to raise funds for Crossrail 2 himself, that could change matters.

 

[hwl]

The issue is who will pay for Crossrail 2? I can't see there being any funding from Westminster until HS2 is complete; at least as far as Phase 2, and possibly Phase 3 as well. Of course, if the Mayor is able to raise funds for Crossrail 2 himself, that could change matters.

The mayor threatens to cause every planning awkwardness possible unless they stump up some dosh? (He has already said he will do this)

HS2 and the government are (privately) probably very aware that unless CR2 is built getting anywhere after stepping on/off an HS2 service is going to be a disaster. (i.e. HS2 ticket revenues, profit and ultimately debt repayment will depend upon CR2 getting built)

TfL are starting to put a lot of effort into it. CR2 also solves a lot more of NR's problems than in comparison to CR1 so that is another potential source.

 

[Kettledrum]

Good video with clear points well made. As I understand HS2 ltd are now aware that they need to talk to the Cheterfield Canal society ( or whoever is in charge). It shouldn't be too difficult to open the chequebook to sort out a sensible Eco friendly solution.

Let's hope this is sorted out better than when the M6 toll motorway was built. The M6 toll motorway blocked the route of the Lichfield canal, and the canal society had to raise £000s to pay for an aqueduct.

According to the Lichfield canal website:

"Although the Secretary of State instructed the road builders to provide the foundations in the bed of the road, they were not required to provide either the supporting columns and abutments or the trough itself. It was left for the L&H Trust to raise the necessary funding and make arrangements for the work to be carried out at whatever time we might be able to manage it!"

If the motorway had been built bridging over the canal, the canal society would have been able to use its limited funds raised to restore part of the canal - as it is we are left with a white elephant of an aqueduct, and no restored canal.

HS2 should take note, so that the mistakes of history are not repeated with the Chesterfield canal.

 

[Chris125]

What appears possibly to be lost at the moment is the capability for a sub-surface link from HS2 at Euston across the HS1 ant St Pancras. It seems that this would now be conditional on the construction of Crossrail 2 - which currently looks only able to happen after HS2 Phase 2 opens.

Does it actually say that anywhere? I hadn't seen a specific design for a link committed to before before this change so the lack of one now doesn't come as a surprise, especially as Crossrail 2 would make it largely redundant.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

The original HS2 documentation simply suggested that the benefits of some kind of 'people mover' between Euston and St Pancras should be considered. There was never a suggestion of a sub-surface link. AFAICS nothing has changed.

Given that Crossrail 2 is expected to be a double ended station with access from Euston at one end, and Kings Cross/St Pancras at the other, it is difficult to see how that could really be considered as a dedicated link anyway - are people really expecting that as well as escalators and lifts to/from Crossrail 2's platforms at either end they'd go to the expense of building an independent underground link in addition?

It would be far easier to just put a roof over the pavement along Euston Rd...

Section 3.8 of this refers: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HS2_Report2010_chapter3d.pdf

 

[RichmondCommu]

So now people travelling on HS2 will arrive into aging 60s brutalism.

Wonderful.

That should never be an excuse to completely rebuild a station, especially given how much HS2 is costing.

 

[HSTEd]

That should never be an excuse to completely rebuild a station, especially given how much HS2 is costing.

The current Euston station is a disaster.

It is poorly laid out, poorly dimensioned and the architecture has not aged well.

The cheap solution for the new platforms would be not to have a trainshed at all but have small shelters on each individual platform.
Are you proposing that?

 

[The Ham]

The mayor threatens to cause every planning awkwardness possible unless they stump up some dosh? (He has already said he will do this)

HS2 and the government are (privately) probably very aware that unless CR2 is built getting anywhere after stepping on/off an HS2 service is going to be a disaster. (i.e. HS2 ticket revenues, profit and ultimately debt repayment will depend upon CR2 getting built)

TfL are starting to put a lot of effort into it. CR2 also solves a lot more of NR's problems than in comparison to CR1 so that is another potential source.

I would like to see Crossrail 2 dovetail with the end of works on Crossrail and given how much it will benefit for the cost I would expect that there is a good chance that it will.

For instance to build a fifth line into Waterloo is set to coast £1bn, whilst Crossrail 2 is expected to cost up to £15bn it removes the need for this extra line whilst making a bigger improvement to the number of services which can serve the SWT's region. As not only does it allow more services to run into Waterloo by removing from Waterloo those services from the branches that Crossrail 2 will serve it also potentially allows more services on the branches too.

Also by dovetailing the two Crossrail projects there is likely to be cost savings, which would further increase the argument for getting on with it.

Also the other thing to bear in mind is that Thames link is due to finish in 2018, so there may be some annual funding which could be diverted from that to Crossrail 2 once it is finished.

All in all it could be possible for Crossrail 2 to start being built early enough that works could use part of the Euston Station site before the station needs to be built over that area.

 

[tbtc]

The current Euston station is a disaster.

It is poorly laid out, poorly dimensioned and the architecture has not aged well

As has been said on the Euston thread, the station is operationally very well laid out for trains and manages a high number of departures without the bottlenecks that some London termini suffer from.

Less pretty for passengers, but its a terminus, not somewhere you're going to spend long periods of time (unless you are a trainspotter)

The cheap solution for the new platforms would be not to have a trainshed at all but have small shelters on each individual platform.

Again, it shouldn't be somewhere that people wait for long periods of time, so I'm not sure how much attraction you need on the actual platforms?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Re: CR2 needed due to Euston bottleneck, surely the point of Crossrail is that many HS2 passengers will change at Old Oak Common onto Crossrail?

 

[Rational Plan]

Re: CR2 needed due to Euston bottleneck, surely the point of Crossrail is that many HS2 passengers will change at Old Oak Common onto Crossrail?

Yes, which is why they say that will be fine for phase 1, but once phase 2 comes along, it's going to be an even bigger increase in passengers.


Also all this talk of crossrail 2 following the funds of Hs2 is clearly wrong, because:

A. You want the line to open in time for phase 2 not long after it.

B. if you say funding stream is coming from the same source, the crossrail 2 would be waiting for decades later once the line to Scotland opens.


Crossrail 2 is justified, whether HS2 happens or not, what needs to happen is change that allows TFL to increase it's bonds or raise more local taxes to pay for it.

 

[Kettledrum]

The current Euston station is a disaster.

It is poorly laid out, poorly dimensioned and the architecture has not aged well.

The cheap solution for the new platforms would be not to have a trainshed at all but have small shelters on each individual platform.
Are you proposing that?

Small shelters would not meet the capacity, would get vandalised so would require money spend on them every month for cleaning, and repairs.

Get it right - like St Pancras, and you're building something that would last 100 years (twice as long as the existing Euston station has lasted) - so over time, I'm not sure the small shelters are the cheap solution after all.

 

[Chris125]

The current Euston station is a disaster.

It is poorly laid out, poorly dimensioned and the architecture has not aged well.

Precisely, which is why in this plan Euston will get a new and enlarged concourse integrated with the adjacent HS2 station.

From a passenger perspective it's effectively a new station, sorting out the bits that matter while avoiding the need to affect the operational railway in a lengthy, risky and disruptive phased rebuilding of the existing platforms.

Any extra work carried out in the future, such as to allow development over the old platforms, can then be done after HS2 is open without adding to the risk or cost of that project. A much more sensible way of doing things IMHO.

Chris

 

[Altnabreac]

I'm surprised no one has suggested running HS2 under central London. If we look at the future gaps raised in the London and SE RUS these are suggested to be dealt with by tunnels from Wimbledon and Purley for fast trains. The former feeds in to Crossrail2, no details on where the latter might go but it would have issues adding more passengers for dispersal at a terminal like Victoria.

My suggestion is that HS2 has a 4 platform station at Euston heading into a tunnel with a more 4 platform stations at Waterloo and East Croydon before emerging in Purley. A re-engineered route to Gatwick Airport passed for continental gauge is used to reach a suitable terminus station at Gatwick (8 platforms?) some CC trains would continue on down the newly OHLE converted Brighton Main line to serve Haywards Heath and Brighton.

This solution solves many issues including space at Euston, dispersal issues and south London capacity problems.