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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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Chris125

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I think this is a really good idea and definitely worth full investigation. The current single line HS2-HS1 link has always looked poor. The current plans separate through traffic from London traffic, greatly reducing the viability of any through services, perhaps to the point of non-viability.

The HS1-2 link is poor because there isn't sufficient demand to really justify it - the current option was chosen because it's the cheapest, and thus wastes the least money.

This proposal has numerous drawbacks, most importantly where do the HS2 services go to terminate? Even if you can bore two more tunnels into the Stratford box, which i think may have been ruled out by HS2 Ltd, you can't run Kent domestic services using Captive stock and you can't interwork domestic and international services due to border issues. Without sufficient underground platforms the captive sets will have to continue onto HS1 to turnback somewhere.

The problem with that is there's not remotely enough cross-London demand to justify running 400m trainsets from Ashford and Ebbsfleet onto HS2, so such a scheme would waste HS1 capacity, import delays onto HS2 and require extra trainsets while requiring numerous underground platforms - all at considerable expense.

Chris
 
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Kettledrum

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The HS1-2 link is poor because...

The problem with that is there's not remotely enough cross-London demand to justify running 400m trainsets from Ashford and Ebbsfleet onto HS2, so such a scheme would waste HS1 capacity, import delays onto HS2.
Chris

But there may be demand from Birmingham, Leeds or Manchester to Paris or Brussels using HS2 and HS1. Certainly the airlines think there is demand.

The planned configuration of the link between HS1 and HS2 wouldn't really permit these through trains to the continent.

My view would be, once HS2 is built, to explore building a HS line linking HS2 to Heathrow, Gatwick, through Kent to the channel tunnel and by-passing London for these through trains. Certainly this would avoid all the expense of more tunnelling and underground station boxes underneath London.

OK - I know it's an awful long way into the future.
 

tbtc

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But there may be demand from Birmingham, Leeds or Manchester to Paris or Brussels using HS2 and HS1. Certainly the airlines think there is demand.

The planned configuration of the link between HS1 and HS2 wouldn't really permit these through trains to the continent.

My view would be, once HS2 is built, to explore building a HS line linking HS2 to Heathrow, Gatwick, through Kent to the channel tunnel and by-passing London for these through trains. Certainly this would avoid all the expense of more tunnelling and underground station boxes underneath London.

OK - I know it's an awful long way into the future.

Big difference is that HS2 is set up for people to board like a normal UK train service, no passport, no border control etc.

Travel from Birmingham to the continent by plane and you need the border controls. Travel from Birmingham to the continent by train and you'd similarly need border controls. Our paranoia about freedom of movement through Europe is why I think any train service from HS2 stations to the continent will never work.
 

Holly

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Travel from Birmingham to the continent by plane and you need the border controls. Travel from Birmingham to the continent by train and you'd similarly need border controls. Our paranoia about freedom of movement through Europe is why I think any train service from HS2 stations to the continent will never work.
Kind of the point of doing border controls in Ashford. Luggage can be unloaded, X-rayed and reloaded at the same time passports are handled; at seat on board the stationary train.

Yes, it is inconvenient to stop the train and delay everyone while you do passport and security controls. But on the other hand you do it once only. Extra time and complication at origin and destination go away and that compensates to some extent.

This is essentially what is done at Niagara Falls.
 

HSTEd

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Isn't the train across the border (the Maple Leaf) stuck at the border for over an hour in some cases?

Its just not worth it.
Quicker to just disembark everyone in Euston, put them on a moving walkway to St Pancras and then put them through Eurostar security.

Through trains would ahve to have the trainset stopped in a valuable platform for some absurd amount of time.
Probably one train every ninety minutes at most.

And then there are the annoying safety requirements for running a trainset through the Chunnel which makes things like the e320 more expensive than regular Siemens trains of the same length would be.
 

Holly

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... Quicker to just disembark everyone in Euston, put them on a moving walkway to St Pancras and then put them through Eurostar security. ...
So how does it get to be quicker to disembark, travel a moving walkway and go through security as compared with not disembarking, not travelling a moving walkway and going through much the same security?
 

LE Greys

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Isn't the train across the border (the Maple Leaf) stuck at the border for over an hour in some cases?

Its just not worth it.
Quicker to just disembark everyone in Euston, put them on a moving walkway to St Pancras and then put them through Eurostar security.

Through trains would ahve to have the trainset stopped in a valuable platform for some absurd amount of time.
Probably one train every ninety minutes at most.

And then there are the annoying safety requirements for running a trainset through the Chunnel which makes things like the e320 more expensive than regular Siemens trains of the same length would be.

Yes it does, I've experienced that and it was two hours. But I've also heard of a similar procedure being undertaken at various places with far more passengers, including the Inter-German border, the Austria-Hungary border and the Italy-Yugoslavia border during the Cold War in far less time, down to as little as half an hour at times. I'm not sure if people had to de-train with luggage, though. Basically, it was a passport and identity check while the empty train drew forwards, then everybody back on.

My proposed location was and still is the under-used international platforms at Stratford. The train (originally intended to be a Regional Eurostar, probably something else now) would make an unadvertised halt there for up to half an hour, which would also give time to change crews, replenish the buffet and top up the tanks. Anyone not meant to be on an incoming train would be sent back to France on the next one, whilst anyone not meant to be on an outgoing train would be treated as 'travelling without a valid ticket' as if they were on a domestic service - exactly what it would have been north of Old Oak/Peterborough/Milton Keynes/Whatever. Farther south, all trains would run non-stop to Paris, where French immigration could run a second check if they like (based on the Regional Eurostar proposals, all services would run to Paris). With the British and French immigration services working together, plus a bit of political will, these problems are solvable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some of these would be very useful, some less so (Chathill gets something like four passengers per service IIRC, which weakens the case for any significant spending to allow its current service to be retained).

However a lot of the things on this wishlist would cause months of disruption to existing passengers (which HS2 wouldn't).

That's the whole point of combining it with the existing relaying operations for most of the plain line sections. It makes the work more complicated (meaning it takes longer) but gives a better railway in the end. The biggest job is Doncaster, which needs doing even if most of the express traffic to London is lost, for the sake of Sheffield-Hull/Grimsby traffic. The second-biggest is Welwyn, where about half the work can be done alongside existing lines with minimal disruption provided they leave a big enough gap. Peterborough north involves working in a gap between two active railways.
 

Chris125

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But there may be demand from Birmingham, Leeds or Manchester to Paris or Brussels using HS2 and HS1. Certainly the airlines think there is demand.

There's a good summary of demand in this post - factor in passengers transferring onto other flights and there just isn't enough demand to fill a couple of trains per day at the very best.

Even if there was demand for more, HS2 doesn't have the paths for regular international services however good the link line was. Besides, why wait for an occasional through service (and perhaps pay more for the priviledge) when you can get on a regular xtph Euston service and have the full choice of International services at St Pancras?

Kind of the point of doing border controls in Ashford. Luggage can be unloaded, X-rayed and reloaded at the same time passports are handled; at seat on board the stationary train.

I can't see how that's practical - even if that was acceptable from a security point of view, the time taken while trains sit about in platforms may well require building more of both, at not inconsiderable cost while extending journey times significantly.

Chris
 
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LE Greys

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There's a good summary of demand in this post - factor in passengers transferring onto other flights and there just isn't enough demand to fill a couple of trains per day at the very best.

Even if there was demand for more, HS2 doesn't have the paths for regular international services however good the link line was. Besides, why wait for an occasional through service (and perhaps pay more for the priviledge) when you can get on a regular xtph Euston service and have the full choice of International services at St Pancras?

Chris

  1. To avoid having to drag your luggage down Euston Road
  2. To prevent worry about missing a connection
  3. Because you don't want to interrupt your dinner/important conversation/business presentation/afternoon nap/trashy novel/whatever else you're doing
  4. To guarantee the same level of service is available on both stages of the journey
  5. To avoid having to get out of bed (if Nightstar ever gets revived)
 

Chris125

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  1. To avoid having to drag your luggage down Euston Road
  2. To prevent worry about missing a connection
  3. Because you don't want to interrupt your dinner/important conversation/business presentation/afternoon nap/trashy novel/whatever else you're doing
  4. To guarantee the same level of service is available on both stages of the journey
  5. To avoid having to get out of bed (if Nightstar ever gets revived)

- As far as i'm aware it's still the intention to improve the interchange with St Pancras, and same-station interchange may well be available at OOC for those who can't cope.
- Missing a connection will be just as much of a worry if there's only a handful of trains a day compared to the number of trains available to and from the London termini.
- People will always prefer not to change but they also like frequent services, at the lowest prices, and flexibility in case of disruption.
- HS2 and International services should be of comparable quality.
- Nightstar is a different issue, especially as it would be off-peak, though if it did come back i can't imagine it being viable beyond London.

Chris
 

LE Greys

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- As far as i'm aware it's still the intention to improve the interchange with St Pancras, and same-station interchange may well be available at OOC for those who can't cope.
- Missing a connection will be just as much of a worry if there's only a handful of trains a day compared to the number of trains available to and from the London termini.
- People will always prefer not to change but they also like frequent services, at the lowest prices, and flexibility in case of disruption.
- HS2 and International services should be of comparable quality.
- Nightstar is a different issue, especially as it would be off-peak, though if it did come back i can't imagine it being viable beyond London.

Chris

The issue of the British Library always comes up with the St Pancras-Euston interchange when the usual proposals (be it a travolator or a Gatwick-style people-mover) are suggested. The missed connection issue has one of two problems, though. Either people leave too much time, which extends the journey and results in annoying waits (unless you like shopping or just generally being at St Pancras) or they leave too little and miss a connection. You know what the travelling public is like about connections, especially if they book two separate tickets with reservations.
 

The Ham

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  1. To avoid having to drag your luggage down Euston Road
  2. To prevent worry about missing a connection
  3. Because you don't want to interrupt your dinner/important conversation/business presentation/afternoon nap/trashy novel/whatever else you're doing
  4. To guarantee the same level of service is available on both stages of the journey
  5. To avoid having to get out of bed (if Nightstar ever gets revived)

All valid points, however unless there were enough people on a train north of London heading to one location in Europe (which will be come less likely when all the new destinations start in the next few years) to justify through travel, it is likely that the situation will remain as it is now.

Even if the train was only half full it would still be quicker to change trains than wait long enough for half the passengers to board the existing train at London having allowed the passengers to London to alight.

It may become possible to run a train from one location north of London (possibly two if you join two trains at London like DB are doing in reverse to London) straight through (having undertaken security checks at the station of departure) and then run trough to a "hub station" on the other side (as there would be no further need for checks). However most people who are native to the UK can only speak English and maybe one other language (which they last spoke in school, other than one beer please) would rather change trains where they could (perhaps) understand what was required of them.
 

LE Greys

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All valid points, however unless there were enough people on a train north of London heading to one location in Europe (which will be come less likely when all the new destinations start in the next few years) to justify through travel, it is likely that the situation will remain as it is now.

Even if the train was only half full it would still be quicker to change trains than wait long enough for half the passengers to board the existing train at London having allowed the passengers to London to alight.

It may become possible to run a train from one location north of London (possibly two if you join two trains at London like DB are doing in reverse to London) straight through (having undertaken security checks at the station of departure) and then run trough to a "hub station" on the other side (as there would be no further need for checks). However most people who are native to the UK can only speak English and maybe one other language (which they last spoke in school, other than one beer please) would rather change trains where they could (perhaps) understand what was required of them.

That's one reason why I woudn't advertise the London stop. At Edinburgh, you would see the following (assuming HS2 is built as far as Leeds as currently planned). The other is to attract more London traffic onto something actually going to Euston. The intention is that they fan out from Paris heading for other locations.

10:00 to PARIS GARE DO NORD
Calling at:
Bewick-Upon-Tweed
Newcastle Central
Darlington
York
Leeds
Birmingham International
 

YorkshireBear

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I think the interchange may soon become a Crossrail 2 station between the two... i get that impression anyway.
 

Haydn1971

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However a lot of the things on this wishlist would cause months of disruption to existing passengers (which HS2 wouldn't).

This for me is a key benefit - I've had numerous highway projects kicked into the long grass due to the sheer cost of line possessions - a new line is just so much easier from an engineering point of view to build than working around live tracks when you start considering the disruption avoided.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If not, why do we expect Britain to retain 125mph running on the WCML, ECML, and MML?

There's a lot of talk about this elsewhere - yet the few industry experts I know appear convinced that HS2 will become the new Intercity and ECML, WCML & MML will become essentially commuter backbone routes with more stopping services.
 

HSTEd

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So how does it get to be quicker to disembark, travel a moving walkway and go through security as compared with not disembarking, not travelling a moving walkway and going through much the same security?

Who unloads all the bags from this train in order to put them through security if not the passengers themselves?

We have a, presumably for cost reasons, small number of staff attempting to unload every bag on the train and do a thorough enough check to prevent peopel from slipping bags through the net by stuffing them under seats or sitting on them or whatever.

This could easily take hours unless you detrain the passengers.

And what about people smuggling things in clothing?
 

Kettledrum

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the few industry experts I know appear convinced that HS2 will become the new Intercity and ECML, WCML & MML will become essentially commuter backbone routes with more stopping services.

HS2 provides a big opportunity to increase the stops on the services on ECML, WCML and MML which will increase the connectivity of many towns and cities in the provinces. I expect services on these lines will become more like X-Country. i.e. they will have a key commuting role, but will also serve to join up towns and cities across a much wider network.

Describing them as commuter backbone routes is a little unfair, as they will still have an important long distance role.
 

Haydn1971

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Describing them as commuter backbone routes is a little unfair, as they will still have an important long distance role.

Fair comment, essentially what I mean is that they won't be offering the high capacity high frequency routes to London as they do now.
 

LE Greys

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HS2 provides a big opportunity to increase the stops on the services on ECML, WCML and MML which will increase the connectivity of many towns and cities in the provinces. I expect services on these lines will become more like X-Country. i.e. they will have a key commuting role, but will also serve to join up towns and cities across a much wider network.

Describing them as commuter backbone routes is a little unfair, as they will still have an important long distance role.

The other side of that is that if they become like XC, they will be operated by shortened trains, reduced to a trolley service and generally turned into a medium-distance rather than long-distance passenger operation. Not exactly what I'd call a positive outcome. I've gone into much more detail on this in the past.

Post 5,001!
 

Metrailway

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There's a lot of talk about this elsewhere - yet the few industry experts I know appear convinced that HS2 will become the new Intercity and ECML, WCML & MML will become essentially commuter backbone routes with more stopping services.

I agree. IMHO the WCML, ECML, MML will be downgraded to 100mph as there would no longer be a need to run fast InterCity services on 'classic' lines anymore. Anyway the state is not going to subsidise 125mph services such as KGX - LDS or BHM - GLC if it competes with the new HS2.

What we could see is an increase in 100mph XC style 'Inter-Regional' services on the WCML and MML.

I don't think we will see such services on the ECML south of York as there is low demand for stoppers on the ECML.

=========

Today's Indy:

Independent on Sunday said:
Revealed: HS2's £33bn budget already derailed before a track is laid

Flawed IT and design rethinks are adding to the high-speed line's woes

High Speed Two (HS2), the controversial rail link that will carve through hundreds of miles of countryside from London to Manchester and Leeds, is in crisis over its £33bn budget four years before construction even starts.

Ahead of a judicial review decision expected this Friday – which could result in the whole project being re-examined – an IoS investigation can reveal that HS2 is plagued by flawed IT systems, rising construction costs and huge design rethinks.

Read more
 

HSTEd

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I agree. IMHO the WCML, ECML, MML will be downgraded to 100mph as there would no longer be a need to run fast InterCity services on 'classic' lines anymore. Anyway the state is not going to subsidise 125mph services such as KGX - LDS or BHM - GLC if it competes with the new HS2.

What we could see is an increase in 100mph XC style 'Inter-Regional' services on the WCML and MML.

I don't think we will see such services on the ECML south of York as there is low demand for stoppers on the ECML.

There are significant commuter flows on the southern ECML that would be lost if such a downgrade occurred.
For instance large numbers of people commute from Grantham, and to a lesser extent, Newark into London every day.

Given the cost of maintaining 125mph operation with short trains (say 5-car IEPs) is not that much greater than the cost of 100mph operation I believe 125mph operation would be retained on the ECML.

And as you say there are no real capacity arguments for slowing it down as there is little to no demand for stopping services along the corridor.
The only place where you might have a case is a 100mph limit between Stoke Tunnel and Grantham, but that would have effectively no effect on journey times since most of that section is only 110mph anyway.
 

The Planner

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Why would you downgrade to 100 mph? What benefits does it bring? sounds nonsense to me. Why should people suddenly get longer journey times on the classic lines?
 

tbtc

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Why would you downgrade to 100 mph? What benefits does it bring? sounds nonsense to me. Why should people suddenly get longer journey times on the classic lines?

I think its part of the anti-HS2 agenda - I saw one poster complain about Parry People Movers being introduced on "classic" lines - shows the level of debate that some are resorting to I suppose.

Routes like Hull/ Northampton/ Leicester/ Coventry - London aren't suddenly going to be slowed down significantly because of HS2 - the infrastructure is there for a fast railway.
 

455driver

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I mean it isnt like the classic trains in Kent were slowed down when HS1 opened was it!

The services on the WCML will be slowed down simply because the trains will (hopefully) be calling at more intermediate stations as the "fast" trains will be on HS2.
 

Haydn1971

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What we could see is an increase in 100mph XC style 'Inter-Regional' services on the WCML and MML.

Inter-Regional yes, essentially stopping at more places with perhaps a limited number of direct / semidirect services into London in the morning into and evening return, but I'm not entirely convinced that a downgrade from 125mph would be necessary north of the busier commuter belt towns of Milton Keynes, Bedford etc.

Whilst I accept a large commuter base in places like Grantham, once you remove Leeds, Wakefield, York and Doncaster passengers, having an intercity train running from Grantham every 15 minutes in the morning peak just won't stack up.
 

HSTEd

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ECML would likely go for a clockface half hourly service for all-EC stations to Doncaster, then one train per hour stopping stations to Leeds and Newcastle.

So basically extend the York/Newark stoppers to Newcastle and add a similar service opposite it on the clockface that stops all EC stations to Leeds via Doncaster.

Once you account for the improved acceleration of IEPs compared to HSTs and 225s I don't think you loose that much time.
 

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There are significant commuter flows on the southern ECML that would be lost if such a downgrade occurred.
For instance large numbers of people commute from Grantham, and to a lesser extent, Newark into London every day.

I was mainly thinking of the section north of Newark would be downgraded. Not sure about Grantham but an old NR document I have states that Newark is within the top 20 long distance flows to/from London. I presume this is still true?

Why would you downgrade to 100 mph? What benefits does it bring? sounds nonsense to me. Why should people suddenly get longer journey times on the classic lines?

Certainly no benefit to the passenger. If the state has to subsidise both HS2 (Very few HS lines in the world are operationally profitable - I believe Eurostar only started to run a profit from 2011 onwards despite having a 70+% market share) and competing 125mph classic InterCity services, one of them has to give - I don't see any government cutting services on the new HS2.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that once HS2 is up and running, there will be an immediate downgrading of the capabilities of classic lines. It will be gradual - for instance when the time comes for 125mph 'classic' rolling stock to retire, new 100mph rolling stock will replace it.

I asked this question previously on here but I'll ask again:

Have the French and Germans retained 125mph services on 'classic' lines which parallel high speed lines?

If not, why do we expect Britain to retain 125mph running on the WCML, ECML, and MML?

Maybe members on here could be kind enough to give me an answer?
 

HSTEd

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Just to be clear, I'm not saying that once HS2 is up and running, there will be an immediate downgrading of the capabilities of classic lines. It will be gradual - for instance when the time comes for 125mph 'classic' rolling stock to retire, new 100mph rolling stock will replace it.

With HS2 rendering the 225s effectively redundant the IEP fleet would be able to maintain the 125mph service on the ECML out to 2050 if not later.
By that time we could be looking at an eighty million population and massive capacity overload.

And that is before we consider what happens to Classic Compatible trains that will be rendered surplus to requirements by any future expansions in the high speed network which allow them to be replaced with cheaper to operate and higher capacity Captive sets.

I asked this question previously on here but I'll ask again:

Have the French and Germans retained 125mph services on 'classic' lines which parallel high speed lines?

Germans tended towards uprating lines with avoiding lines for intermediate stations until recently, so there is not much information there.

And French 125mph services were far more restricted than they are in Britain to start with, and due to the lower population density there is far less demand for travel to intermediate destinations.
So the comparison is not really valid.

If not, why do we expect Britain to retain 125mph running on the WCML, ECML, and MML?

As far as I know there is almost no 125mph running on the MML and will not be for the forseable future.
The ECML serves its own outer commuter markets, and there are too many demands for services to secondary destinations for the WCML to loose its 125mph operations completely.
 

LE Greys

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There's no particular reason why speeds should be cut. If anything, there will be more 125 mph stock, as it will appear on services currently worked by 350s or 365s, such as the King's Lynn fasts (which I expect to be lumped in with the rump ECML) or the Birmingham/Northampton fasts (assuming that the remaining non-HS2 services from Euston all end up under one franchise). Essentially, it will be a bit like the Oxford Flyers when 180s took over.
 

The Planner

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It will be gradual - for instance when the time comes for 125mph 'classic' rolling stock to retire, new 100mph rolling stock will replace it.

Again, why? if you have a 125mph railway, why suddenly stop making 125mph rated stock for it?
 
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