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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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Chris125

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My ONLY concern with HS2 is the fact it is only 2 tracks south of Birmingham and given the congestion of the Paris - Lyon route which is now full (and they're smaller city's than London and Manchester/Birmingham) it becomes very worrying indeed.

Among other oft-mentioned issues, this is helpfully tackled in HS2 Ltd's response to questions from the Transport Select Committee - available here

10. Does the proposed land-take for HS2 provide sufficient width for widening to 4 tracks at some future date?
Are structures being designed with future widening in mind?


No. The reasons for this were discussed in HS2 Ltd’s 2009 report High Speed Rail: London to the West Midlands
and Beyond. The relevant extract is reproduced below:

“6.1.60 We have considered the possibility of laying four tracks along the HS2 alignment, thereby increasing its
long term capacity, to 30+ train paths per hour in each direction, rather than the maximum of 18 we assume for
a two track railway. However, for the following reasons we have not pursued this option:


• The level of demand we have assumed – with growth continuing to 2033 and then levelling off – does not
appear to support such a substantial increase in capacity. That is not to say that the demand may not
materialise at some point after the next 25-30 years.

However it does suggest that HS2 would need initially to bear a substantial degree of additional cost and
environmental impact on the basis that the demand may materialise. We do not believe this to be a credible
position.


• Were a second trunk into London to be justified, there are compelling reasons to believe that its optimal
alignment would not follow the same as that of HS2.

- Firstly, a more easterly leg would enable high speed rail to address a broader market, and bring with it the
possibility of further improved journey times to destinations east of the Pennines.

- Secondly, we believe there is no plausible site for the approximately 20-platform station that would be required
to serve a four track high speed railway operating at full capacity, and nor is there a surface alignment into
London that could support a four-track HS2.

Were HS2 to be four-tracked to a point somewhere outside London, the second pair of tracks would need to
enter London entirely in tunnel and terminate at a different station (although it is worth restating here that
our analysis of the possible sites in central London suggests there is no obvious location for a second high
speed terminal).

- A further reason for preferring a second route alignment is the added resilience it would give to a national network.


6.1.61 In short, a decision to four-track HS2 would need to be made against the backdrop of considerable
uncertainty about future demand, and when other potentially superior options exist should the demand materialise.
For these reasons we have recommended as part of our proposals for HS2 that it remain only a two-track railway.
If demand materialises, a second leg could be built from the East Midlands to London.”

Chris
 
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Haydn1971

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One key issue with one big station is that chaos is much bigger when something goes wrong in the station - you get a signalling problem, power outage, TOC industrial action or worse, a fire or terror incident and the whole network is crippled. Resilience is the key and that's what we have with several major stations - now that's a civil engineer who does project risk registers talking ;)
 

YorkshireBear

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One key issue with one big station is that chaos is much bigger when something goes wrong in the station - you get a signalling problem, power outage, TOC industrial action or worse, a fire or terror incident and the whole network is crippled. Resilience is the key and that's what we have with several major stations - now that's a civil engineer who does project risk registers talking ;)

Oh that all sounds fairly familiar that!!!! Infrastructure resilience oh the deep joy :)

I may be doing a project on that later next year.

But it further supports what i said earlier about a second route and i thanks Chris125 for taking the time to find the exact information.
 

si404

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It should also be noted that the original concern is fairly invalid - TGV Sud Est serves a far more diverse range of services than HS2 south of Birmingham will*, and has a theoretical ~14tph capacity (13 being what's used to make it full) compared with HS2's theoretical ~23tph (18 being what's used).

The French plan on (like with the motorways, they go with duplication, not widening) a second Paris-Lyon route. Likewise TGV Picardy to remove some of the trains (London, Calais, Dunkerque) from TGV Nord.

*It would be like if on top of HS2's London - North services, it has Chester, XC services to the South and SW, services to HS1, Hull, Sunderland, Lincoln, Stoke, Coventry, Aberystwyth, Grimsby, Middlesbrough, etc, etc. Basically if you draw a clock face around Paris from half-3 to 7, TGV Sud-Est takes all traffic from Paris, plus most of the 8 to 3 locations (as there's no real bypass of the Paris area until you get to the Bordeaux-Med via Tolouse route, or the Strasbourg - Macon route).
 

jon0844

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David Cameron has just said he's willing to roll up his sleeves for a fight against those against HS2 and other projects...

Bring it on!!
 

LE Greys

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I had a reply to my FOI request yestreday. Haven't read the report yet, but the e-mail considered mitigation against loss of service on the main lines to be the DfT's problem rather than HS2 Ltd.
 

The Ham

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Interesting idea or something really worth investigating ?

Submission of Alternative Route for HS2 under central London

Given it looks like it overcomes some of the problems of providing a link to HS1 and gives easy access to the three stations above it, then it is proberbly worth looking at further.

I doubt that it is cost nutral as discribed, but even if it costs a little more it could still be worth doing. It is likely to add time to how long it will take to finish HS2.
 

Chris125

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I can see what they're trying to do, reducing the number of platforms by allowing services to continue onto HS1, but there's nowhere for those trains to go - border controls do not allow them to continue through the Channel Tunnel and Stratford doesn't have room for the services to terminate.

I can't see the cost of 400m underground platforms and tunnelling to at least the Stratford station box being affordable, even if it's cost neutral presumably the benefits of rebuilding and developing Euston are lost, and diverting WCML suburban services onto Crossrail is by no means straightforward either.

Chris
 

Holly

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... allowing services to continue onto HS1, but there's nowhere for those trains to go - border controls do not allow them to continue through the Channel Tunnel and Stratford doesn't have room for the services to terminate. ...
Space for border controls at Ashford is the obvious choice for through trains.
With non-international pick up and set down at Ashford too.
 

HSTEd

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Presumably the trains at "Euston Cross" could be put down the hardly crowded High Speed 1 and terminated at Ashford or whatever.

It would be the ultimate cross London service.
 

Kettledrum

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I can't see the cost of 400m underground platforms and tunnelling to at least the Stratford station box being affordable, even if it's cost neutral presumably the benefits of rebuilding and developing Euston are lost, and diverting WCML suburban services onto Crossrail is by no means straightforward either.
Chris

The guys who have come up with this idea really should know better.

If HS2 goes back to the drawing board it will add another 5 years before the line is built. The plans would add millions to the cost. There might not be the room underground for this idea. Euston station still needs rebuilding anyway.

Underground stations do not give a good first impressions for premium travellers. Just compare St Pancras with Birmingham New Street. Which of the two station designs would you want as the terminus for your brand new flagship high speed line?
 

tbtc

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The guys who have come up with this idea really should know better.

If HS2 goes back to the drawing board it will add another 5 years before the line is built. The plans would add millions to the cost. There might not be the room underground for this idea. Euston station still needs rebuilding anyway

Precisely!

Arguing about the route at key points (like central London) now is a waste of time
 

Chris125

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Space for border controls at Ashford is the obvious choice for through trains.
With non-international pick up and set down at Ashford too.

I can't see what that would achieve - passengers will still need to change trains via border control. Considering the likely demand and finite capacity of HS1, better to do this at OOC than spend vast sums and waste useful capacity taking them to Ashford so they can do it there instead.

Indeed, those using Classic Compatible services into Euston would have no same-station interchange with international services at all under this proposal.

Presumably the trains at "Euston Cross" could be put down the hardly crowded High Speed 1 and terminated at Ashford or whatever.

It would be the ultimate cross London service.

Stratford/St Pancras/OOC/Heathrow are or will be connected by HS1 and Crossrail services, there's no need for such a service.

Chris
 

465fan

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Can we forget HS2 and focus on what we have?

Reading up on the 'Package Programme' made me think. I always supported High Speed Two for one reason: making freight capacity on the classic network. I didn't care much for making Birmingham any quicker, nor Manchester, nor Leeds. Judging by the absolute hilarity of some of the ideas (High Speed services to places like Scotland running on the most antiquated part of the WCML from Rugeley), it seemed good to investigate how we can improve what we have and get far more value for money?

London to Birmingham is a big thing; linking the two biggest cities in double quick time. Do we keep using the West Coast Main Line? No. We use the Chiltern Main Line.

By getting rid of Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect (insert Crossrail) as well as local services on the Great Western Main Line (again insert Crossrail), you make many platforms for Paddington to become the new station for Birmingham. The Old Oak interchange would be built, before the route from Old Oak to South Ruislip becomes a twin track, very straight, electrified line. Marylebone to South Ruilsip would also be electrified. Re-modelling Northolt Jn and getting rid of the Waste Terminal, you would have South Ruilsip to Birmingham Moor Street as entirely four track and electrified.

There would be a half hourly Intercity service from Paddington to Birmingham Moor Street, calling at Solihull and Moor Street only. Another half hourly Intercity service would be provided from Paddington to Wolverhampton calling at Coventry, International, New Street, Sandwell and Wolves. A final half hourly Intercity service from Marylebone would call at Banbury, Leamington, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Dorridge, Solihull and Moor Street. Moor Street would be upgraded, with the number of bay platforms increasing from two to four.

Princes Risborough to Aylesbury would be twin tracked and electrified, and whilst they would lose direct trains to London on that route, Princes Risborough would be the terminus of a half hourly service on the East West Rail Link to Milton Keynes.

High Wycombe to Maidenhead would be re-opened, with a half hourly service. Marlow would need new considerations.

Oxford to Bicester Town and onto the Chiltern would be a twin track, electrified line, with a half hourly service to Marylebone, calling at Water Eaton, Bicester and then London. This would rid the Great Western Main Line of Oxford to London fast trains.

Didcot to Banbury would be four tracked as much as possible, electrification is already promised across this as part of the electric spine.

Acton Wells to Dudding Hill, Hendon, Cricklewood and Neasden would be electrified and re-signalled.

Leamington to Coventry would be twin tracked and electrified, with a station provided at Kenilworth. Whilst Intercity services would run along here every half hour, a new half hourly service would be provided from Leamington Spa to Nuneaton. This service would encompass the new half hourly electric service proposed through Bedworth as that route is upgraded.

Snow Hill route services from Leamington, Dorridge, Stratford and Whitlocks End to Stourbridge, Kidderminster, Worcester and Malvern would become part of a new Chiltern franchise.

A new grade seperated junction at Ledburn on the West Coast would provide a route from the Down Fast to the Down Slow, avoiding conflict with the Up Fast.

A fourth track would be put in place from Brinklow to Nuneaton.

The route from Shugborough to (and including) Norton Bridge would be completely re-modelled and re-signalled with line speed improvements.

Colwich Junction would be completely re-modelled.

As Birmingham services transfer to the Chilterns, the West Coast would have far more space. Four trains each hour to Manchester, two to Liverpool and two to Glasgow would finally be an available option. Two 'local' (London Midland) type services to New Street from Euston would exist, running fast to Leighton Buzzard, and running via Northampton.

The route from Leighton Buzzard to Luton would be re-opened, and a fifth track would be placed next to the Down Fast on the Midland Main Line, allowing for a new, half hourly service from Luton Airport Parkway to Milton Keynes Central.

A route from Rugby to Leicester would be opened, with services being provided by the Midland Main Line franchise holder.

The Midland Main Line would be four tracked and electrified from Bedford to Leicester, as well as from Trent to Sheffield via Toton and Chesterfield.

To this end, services from London to Leeds would not run via the East Coast; they would be operated from St Pancras. Line speed improvements and express running (calling points would be Bedford (hourly), Leicester (hourly), East Midlands Parkway (all), Sheffield (all), Wakefield Westgate (all) and Leeds) would allow for competitive journey times.

Cities such as Sheffield would benefit, and Leeds would be connected to the likes of Peteroborugh via Leicester and the East West Rail Link at Bedford.

The TransPennine route would have as many four track sections as possible, and re-modellings for line speed improvements.

On the East Coast, capacity released would allow for two trains per hour to Edinburgh, and two trains per hour to Newark (hourly to York). The main reason for more capacity is for more freight. The route between Peterborough and Huntingdon would also be four tracked, as would various sections between Peterborough and Drem.

Examples of new electrified freight corridors would be:

Daventry to West Yorkshire via Rugby, Leicester, Toton, Beighton

Southampton to West Yorkshire via Reading, Acton, Hendon, Bedford, Leicester, Toton, Beighton OR via Oxford, Bletchley, Bedford, Leicester, Toton, Beighton.

I think I've missed some bits, but until I remember them, what does everyone think? Would exceptionally upgraded Main Lines which actually live up to their full potential be able to get rid of a High Speed Two which would be a complete waste?
 

HSTEd

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Bear in mind that a large number of the fast trains run non-stop through Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Doncaster, I'm sure it won't be the end of their world when there's more space on the line for stoppers.

Look at the places on main lines that lack a decent local service because the paths are eaten up by fast trains that don't stop there (like the recent ECML thread on here)

There is no demand for a "local" service on the ECML.

There is very little demand for travel between Newark and Grantham, especially as they are becoming little more than dormitory towns for London and Nottingham.

And we already have an hourly stopper, there is no need for anything more than that.
The loss of the 125mph services takes Grantham, and especially Newark, outside of the London commuter betl and therefore drastically reduces the demand for trains to London.
And you don't really gain anything, as there are no "small stations" to benefit from destroying the fast service.

The non stop trains being replaced with a second stopper to Newark/York will do fine thank you very much.
Save your "optimisations" for routes where it makes sense.
 

YorkshireBear

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I wrote a huge reply out to you but the Mods moved it half way through and so now it is lost... :/ Not writing out again at this time of night. I shall make this one short.

What you suggest will not even come close to providing the same capacity benefits as HS2, mainly because it will destroy the local services along many of these lines.
Expresses eat up capacity hence why a new route for them is being created.

Four tracking, just see WCML upgrade. Unless you grade separate every single junction four tracking doesn't achieve a great deal. Add all this together and your fast approaching HS2 costs with far less benefits.

All well and good releasing Paddington platform capacity, but from Royal Oak outwards the GWML will still be rammed even more so with lots of extra crossrail trains.

I could go on...

While what you suggest is sensible, i do not think that this can in any way replace HS2. HS2 is needed to provide an efficient Intercity Service that does not have to contend with Local, Regional and Freight traffic. Allowing these flows to maximise use of existing infrastructure. Just removing non stop express trains on the southern WCML can free up nearly an extra 2 paths an hour plus the paths already saved by removing the services.

The cost of what you are suggesting is also fairly large i would half expect what you suggest to easily reach £30 billion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is no demand for a "local" service on the ECML.

There is very little demand for travel between Newark and Grantham, especially as they are becoming little more than dormitory towns for London and Nottingham.

And we already have an hourly stopper, there is no need for anything more than that.
The loss of the 125mph services takes Grantham, and especially Newark, outside of the London commuter betl and therefore drastically reduces the demand for trains to London.
And you don't really gain anything, as there are no "small stations" to benefit from destroying the fast service.

The non stop trains being replaced with a second stopper to Newark/York will do fine thank you very much.
Save your "optimisations" for routes where it makes sense.

I believe tbtc may be referring to services that use the ECML for a tiny part that are hampered by the frequent EC express timetable. Like the flat crossing at Newark. Like local services struggling to get paths across the ECML at Doncaster.
 

HSTEd

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But going to 100mph max does not help those services at all.

The flat crossing at Newark is not going to be helped by anything less than a bridge.

Doncaster is another problem that is not going to be solved by this proposed speed cut.
 

The Ham

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Can we forget HS2 and focus on what we have?

......................

I think I've missed some bits, but until I remember them, what does everyone think? Would exceptionally upgraded Main Lines which actually live up to their full potential be able to get rid of a High Speed Two which would be a complete waste?

It is likely that by the time that HS2 is full open that because of passenger/freight growth that several of the suggestions made would of been needed anyway (with those that haven't either being done later or not viable solutions).

HS2 growth is base on (from Sept 2010) a growth rate of 2.5%, given that as of Sept 2012 the first two year's rate of growth meant that the growth rate was more than it was predicted to be by 2016, meaning that the growth rate for the rest of the time up to 2026 needs to be less than 2% to reach the same level as predicted.

The risk in building HS2 is that there isn't as many passengers as is needed, however with faster travel and much lower occupied trains there would likely be an additional increase in passengers so as to meet this level anyway and anyway no one has suggested how to meet the freight requirements of the country, only ever how to just meet the predicted passenger numbers for the year of opening without thinking that growth may continue beyond then.

The (I think bigger) risk is not having HS2 in the pipeline and there are more passengers than is predicted and rail freight grows quickly as well.
 

tbtc

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I believe tbtc may be referring to services that use the ECML for a tiny part that are hampered by the frequent EC express timetable. Like the flat crossing at Newark. Like local services struggling to get paths across the ECML at Doncaster.

I was. Not sure why HSTed thinks I was suggesting downgrading the entire ECML to 100mph operation, but there you go...
 

stephen_c

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Interesting idea or something really worth investigating ?

Submission of Alternative Route for HS2 under central London

I think this is a really good idea and definitely worth full investigation. The current single line HS2-HS1 link has always looked poor. The current plans separate through traffic from London traffic, greatly reducing the viability of any through services, perhaps to the point of non-viability.

This plan, with 4 underground platforms on the route to HS1 completely changes service viability. While we have to presume that through European services will still be rare, there is going to be good demand for services from Stratford and Kent to the HS2 destinations.

The most reasonable option might be for all Birmingham services to run to/from the underground platforms (so anyone travelling to Birmingham has a consistent place to go to). The services would start at Ashford or Ebbsfleet (where terminating platforms could be built easily enough) and call at Stratford. Passengers to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc would change at OOC.

Yes, this would definitely be a game changer for me in the viability of the proposed HS2 route.
 

si404

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^^ Actually, a big box under the stations will surely add to the cost for little benefit.

That said, not taking one of the tracks through Camden (the only real thing wrong with the HS2-HS1 link - there's not much demand for through services anyway) is a big bonus, and, if you take the Birmingham services to Ashford (or Liverpool/Warrington to East Kent), you don't have to build as big a Euston surface level station, for those 3tph.

My only worry is that it would leave St Pancras' Kent/Eurostar platforms not doing much - that said, HS3 to Totton, or Hub Airport, or whatever, will have a nice line to Stratford and a terminus already done with a mere diversion of the last few trains...
 

LE Greys

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It's really a separate thread idea, but there are a lot of different ways to solve the ECML's problems, some of which were planned as far back as the 1950s, and the proposed 2000s upgrade incorporated the lot.
  • Sextuple the line from Finsbury Park to Wood Green - now under way
  • Quadruple the whole line from Wood Green to Grantham, so the Welwyn Tunnels, Stoke Tunnel, Holme-Peterborough and a down slow Peterborough-Werrington
  • Bay platform at Stevenage or four platforms at Letchworth
  • Flyover at Cambridge Junction - under way
  • Welwyn-style turnback flyover south of Peterborough
  • Extra platforms at Peterborough - under way
  • Grade-separate Werrington, with a flyover from the resinstated down fast to the Lincoln line (which also allows up slow --> down Oakham movements)
  • Upgrade the Joint Line for more freight movements
  • Grade-separate Newark
  • Grade-separate south of Doncaster with one flyover/diveunder each way
  • Two extra platforms west of Donny for Leeds trains
  • Sort out the York south throat - now done
  • Sort out the York north throat with a possible flyover at Poppleton to link the avoiding line with the up slow
  • Platforms on the goods lines at Northallerton
  • Platform on the up goods loop at Darlington
  • Rebuild and reopen the Leamside Line as the primary freight route
  • Reinstate the junction at Alnmouth to allow trains to run to Alnwick
  • Turnback facilities at Berwick so that Chathill can retain a service from Newcastle
  • New northbound platform at Dunbar
  • Sort out the Edinburgh west throat - now done
  • Increase general running speeds to 140 mph where possible, 100 mph on slow lines
  • Fit TASS and get tilt working, plan new stock around this
  • Use the existing track relaying schedule to allow this with less disruption than on the WCML
  • Use the existing OHLE renewal schedule to reinforce the headspan sections with a cross beam, making the structure more rigid to avoid dewirements

Many of these are highly unlikely, but possibly worth doing. It depends on whether planning is for passenger growth at 2.5% to carry on as far as the 22nd Century or not. That depends on what happens with the HS2 eastern branch, in particular whether it heads on for Newcastle by avoiding or running through York, and whether it eventually reaches Edinburgh.
 

HSTEd

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Frankly electrification of the routes of services that use the line for significant distances would be rather useful.

If Liverpool-Norwich was run by 110mph capable units then it would take the sting out of the bottleneck between Stoke Tunnel and Grantham. Although that would require the slow lines between Peterborough and Stoke to be upgraded in terms of speed as well.
 

tbtc

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It's really a separate thread idea, but there are a lot of different ways to solve the ECML's problems, some of which were planned as far back as the 1950s, and the proposed 2000s upgrade incorporated the lot.
  • Sextuple the line from Finsbury Park to Wood Green - now under way
  • Quadruple the whole line from Wood Green to Grantham, so the Welwyn Tunnels, Stoke Tunnel, Holme-Peterborough and a down slow Peterborough-Werrington
  • Bay platform at Stevenage or four platforms at Letchworth
  • Flyover at Cambridge Junction - under way
  • Welwyn-style turnback flyover south of Peterborough
  • Extra platforms at Peterborough - under way
  • Grade-separate Werrington, with a flyover from the resinstated down fast to the Lincoln line (which also allows up slow --> down Oakham movements)
  • Upgrade the Joint Line for more freight movements
  • Grade-separate Newark
  • Grade-separate south of Doncaster with one flyover/diveunder each way
  • Two extra platforms west of Donny for Leeds trains
  • Sort out the York south throat - now done
  • Sort out the York north throat with a possible flyover at Poppleton to link the avoiding line with the up slow
  • Platforms on the goods lines at Northallerton
  • Platform on the up goods loop at Darlington
  • Rebuild and reopen the Leamside Line as the primary freight route
  • Reinstate the junction at Alnmouth to allow trains to run to Alnwick
  • Turnback facilities at Berwick so that Chathill can retain a service from Newcastle
  • New northbound platform at Dunbar
  • Sort out the Edinburgh west throat - now done
  • Increase general running speeds to 140 mph where possible, 100 mph on slow lines
  • Fit TASS and get tilt working, plan new stock around this
  • Use the existing track relaying schedule to allow this with less disruption than on the WCML
  • Use the existing OHLE renewal schedule to reinforce the headspan sections with a cross beam, making the structure more rigid to avoid dewirements

Many of these are highly unlikely, but possibly worth doing. It depends on whether planning is for passenger growth at 2.5% to carry on as far as the 22nd Century or not. That depends on what happens with the HS2 eastern branch, in particular whether it heads on for Newcastle by avoiding or running through York, and whether it eventually reaches Edinburgh.

Some of these would be very useful, some less so (Chathill gets something like four passengers per service IIRC, which weakens the case for any significant spending to allow its current service to be retained).

However a lot of the things on this wishlist would cause months of disruption to existing passengers (which HS2 wouldn't).
 

Metrailway

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The (I think bigger) risk is not having HS2 in the pipeline and there are more passengers than is predicted and rail freight grows quickly as well.

On the point of rail freight growth, the trend in rail freight for the past 5 years is of decline. Using figures from the ORR:

In 2006-7, the number of freight movements on the network was 364,949 but in 2011-12 this figure was down to 273,870.

Amount of freight lifted in 2006-7 was 108.2 million tonnes but in 2011-12 this figure was down to 101.7 million tonnes.

In 2006-7, the amount of freight moved was 21.88 billion net tonne kilometres but in 2011-12 this was down to 21.06 billion net tonne kilometres.

The economy probably has had an effect on the figures (road freight stats are down as well) but IMO rail freight could decline further in the near future with the closure of our coal and oil power stations - both Didcot A and Fawley power stations will close this month with all coal and oil power stations phased out by 2015.

Coal represents around 30% of the total freight moved on the railway and around 45% of the total freight lifted on the railway.

===

Have the French and Germans retained 125mph services on 'classic' lines which parallel high speed lines?

If not, why do we expect Britain to retain 125mph running on the WCML, ECML, and MML?
 
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