High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Ironside]

Unfortunately the fact remains that the "compatible" trainsets envisaged are equivalent to ten-car IEPs.... which means they waste an awful lot of capacity.... Which puts them in the vicinity of ~715 seats.
Compared to 1352 for my proposed 400m TGV Duplex "captive" set.

Unfortunately those "compatible" trains come out at 250m long and thus waste 150m of train length for no purpose.

If you want compatibles they either have to be 8 or 16 cars, anything else just wastes space that has been purchased at great expense. (And for the record two 8-car IEPs coupled comes out at a capacity of something like 1078 seats.... at higher density than my proposed sets though)

Excuse my ignorance, but how come they have to be in multiples of eight to be seating efficient?

 

[class26]

Out of interest, I've just found this - UK Ultraspeed -an alternative to HS2 using Transrapid Maglev system, as in Shanghai. http://www.500kmh.com/ and for map see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed
It appears that this proposal has been rejected but that might not be the end of the story.

I was in Shanghai recently and took this train to the airport. It is now restricted to 300 kph outside rush hours because of the high fuel costs and doies not do 500 at any time. The max speed I do forget precisely but it is around the low 400`s

 

[Dave1987]

Please vote in this poll. Would be interesting to see the results of what people think

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78710

 

[AndyLandy]

Unfortunately those "compatible" trains come out at 250m long and thus waste 150m of train length for no purpose.

If you want compatibles they either have to be 8 or 16 cars, anything else just wastes space that has been purchased at great expense. (And for the record two 8-car IEPs coupled comes out at a capacity of something like 1078 seats.... at higher density than my proposed sets though)

Excuse my ignorance, but how come they have to be in multiples of eight to be seating efficient?

I think it's actually overall train length that matters. Since captive HS2 trains are going to be 400m long, but the rest of our railway cannot accommodate such long trains, the classic-compatible HS2 stock will have to be shorter.

I don't know what the vehicle lengths are going to be on classic-compatible, but if they're 26m (as IEP is expected to be) then eight of them will result in a 208m train. Alternatively nine mk3-length (23m) vehicles would be 207m, or obviously, 10x 20m vehicles is exactly 200m.

Certainly it seems sensible to me that the CC trains should be 200m in length, so they could be run in pairs along HS2 then split at the Northern HS terminal and go different routes.

 

[Metrailway]

Interesting to note the general anti-HS2 sentiment from the Question Time audience tonight. I'm surprised as it is being held in Manchester! Lancaster

 

[Lampshade]

Interesting to note the general anti-HS2 sentiment from the Question Time audience tonight. I'm surprised as it is being held in Manchester!

Lancaster.

And I agree with them, I'm opposed to HS2 as long as there are Pacers running around.

 

[AndyLandy]

And I agree with them, I'm opposed to HS2 as long as there are Pacers running around.

I have to admit, as reasons for being anti-HS2 go, that's probably the best one I've heard!

Of course, it's still possible that all the Pacers will be withdrawn before the first HS2 metals are laid. I live in hope, at least!

 

[Metrailway]

Lancaster.

And I agree with them, I'm opposed to HS2 as long as there are Pacers running around.

Oops! Corrected

 

[jon0844]

I won't back HS2 unless Pacers are cleared to run on the line...

 

[Dave1987]

It interesting how many people come up with the line "£32bn just so fat cats can get from London to Birmingham quicker". Are people really that naive about the benefits a high speed rail link will bring.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder what they think of HS1 and Eurostar in particular?

 

[WatcherZero]

Welsh politicians have begun debating what to do with the £2bn they would recieve under the Barnett formula as a consequence of HS2. Main idea being put forward is to electrify the North Wales lines and provide good connections to HS2 at Crewe.

 

[steamdrivenand]

It interesting how many people come up with the line "£32bn just so fat cats can get from London to Birmingham quicker". Are people really that naive about the benefits a high speed rail link will bring.

I posted about this misconception the other day. I believe it is one of the anti HS2 movements tenets dreamed up in an effort to generate a bit of good old 'class war' on their side. What is odd though is that a large proportion of the vociferous anti HS2 people are very well off Chiltern residents who a lot of people would consider to be 'fat cats'.

With the enormous number of seats that have got to be sold on HS2 there is no way it can be kept and priced just for an exclusive few.

 

[Lampshade]

It interesting how many people come up with the line "£32bn just so fat cats can get from London to Birmingham quicker". Are people really that naive about the benefits a high speed rail link will bring.

It's not naivity, HS2 is a vanity project by politicians, for politicians. Naivity is believing they're actually doing it to benefit this country - they're not, they're doing it to benefit themselves and their mates who get all the contracts for it.

People who oppose HS2 are not NIMBYs or 'clueless', they are realistic, we have had years of abundant and consistent evidence with back-handers here and dodgy handshakes there (Work Programme anyone?), this government is incapable of running a bath, they should demonstrate they can run what we've already got properly (which they can't, look at the West Coast fiasco) before building more.

I hope HS2 will be like the Olympics - people were indifferent/derided the idea until they actually happened, then it was brilliant. However, I think HS2 will probably be like the Millennium Dome.

 

[jon0844]

It's one thing Labour (and certainly the Police Federation) have realised is the way to bring the Government down.. stirring up a class war. And they've done pretty well as people still talk about the Tories calling us all plebs.

The fact that it's the well off, influential, people (that are certainly not working class) who want to try and do everything to stop HS2 (or delay until they can secure more compensation) and have the money and contacts to do so, certainly seems to be missed by most people.

I think one reason is that everyone has become so conditioned to hate the Government for having to make cuts, HS2 is now seen as something these nasty people are trying to impose upon us and so it MUST be wrong and a waste of money (and the whole 'why don't we spend that money on something else instead?' argument as if this cash is sitting in a bank account doing nothing).

I'm surprised nobody has argued against HS2 by saying how many teachers or nurses could be hired, or how many new hospitals could be opened. Or something else that's emotive.

I hope HS2 will be like the Olympics - people were indifferent/derided the idea until they actually happened, then it was brilliant. However, I think HS2 will probably be like the Millennium Dome.

I don't get the argument. The Dome, or O2 as it is now, is fantastic! This only helps prove the point that HS2 will likely be seen as a good thing eventually - even if for the first year or two they have to tweak the services/timetables as you'd expect on any new line.

 

[Lampshade]

I don't get the argument. The Dome, or O2 as it is now, is fantastic!

At the time everyone raved about it, then it was a disaster plagued with mismanagement. To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson in his Brunel programme - "it was built for a party rather than a purpose" - so a vanity project for New Labour. The Dome as a commercial venture cannot be celebrated as a success by any measure.

The O2 however I agree, is fantastic.

 

[jon0844]

Did you go to the Dome? I actually thought it was quite good. The problem was that they seemed to budget for every single person in the UK to visit, twice!

It was another thing that just seemed to get written off before it was even finished and open to the public - but unlike the Olympics, it wasn't on TV for people to suddenly realise it wasn't a disaster - and feel proud. It was also naive to think people would travel from all over the UK (or beyond) to visit.

Oh, and us Brits like to moan about anything new and write it off before even giving it a chance (hence loads of people slagging off the Dome who never went or even knew what was inside). For me, it wasn't just the Dome but being able to travel on the new Jubilee Line extension and see the whole area.

I'm not saying the Dome was anywhere near comparable the Olympics - but it was something that a lot of people used simply to knock Government and politicians, and was IMO do(o)med from day one.

 

[dggar]

At the time everyone raved about it, then it was a disaster plagued with mismanagement. To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson in his Brunel programme - "it was built for a party rather than a purpose" - so a vanity project for New Labour. The Dome as a commercial venture cannot be celebrated as a success by any measure.

The O2 however I agree, is fantastic.

I seem to recall talks between Michael Heseltine and Labour, prior to the 1997 election, to ensure the project to build the dome would not be abandoned when it became obvious that the Conservative party were not going to get back in to power.

 

[Lampshade]

Did you go to the Dome?

As much as I wanted to... no

I seem to recall talks between Michael Heseltine and Labour, prior to the 1997 election, to ensure the project to build the dome would not be abandoned when it became obvious that the Conservative party were not going to get back in to power.

New Labour vastly expanded the plans for the project, aiming to hail it as a success in their 2001 manifesto.

 

[HSTEd]

With the enormous number of seats that have got to be sold on HS2 there is no way it can be kept and priced just for an exclusive few.

They could run 132m AGV 7s if they really wanted to keep the number of seats down, which would give us the equivalent of 8 Pendolinos an hour rather than 41.

The proposals I make for 400m long double deck trains running all captive services and 400m "lashups" of compatible trains are not neccesarily going to come to pass, as much as I wish they would.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Excuse my ignorance, but how come they have to be in multiples of eight to be seating efficient?

Because they have to fit into 400m platforms when operating in multiple.

A ~200m train can be doubled up and still operate in one formation over HS2.
But a 250m train cannot (its going to be too long when doubled up) which means you throw away 150m of platform.

EDIT:
It occurs to me that IEP vehicles are 26m and not 25m in length over the gangways so 16 cars won't fit... will need 15, which means a mix of 7 and 8 car IEPs.... or just 7 car IEPs and accept the loss of one car.

 

[The Ham]

It occurs to me that IEP vehicles are 26m and not 25m in length over the gangways so 16 cars won't fit... will need 15, which means a mix of 7 and 8 car IEPs.... or just 7 car IEPs and accept the loss of one car.

Or just run them as 3 x 5 coach IEP's and be able to run them to 3 destinations?

 

[HSTEd]

Or just run them as 3 x 5 coach IEP's and be able to run them to 3 destinations?

Running to three destinations is troublesome in that its hard to think of three places you could run from say Crewe.
Although you might be able to get away wtih dividing the formation at Birmingham International and sending trains down both "branches".

5-car IEPs are also fairly light capacity wise, comes out with only 945 seats but requires three train crews (save two drivers obviously) to maintain service on the entire formation.

I don't suppose you could build new 400m platforms somewhere in Glasgow and run the West Coast compatible services as 400m formations using SDO could you?

 

[The Ham]

I don't suppose you could build new 400m platforms somewhere in Glasgow and run the West Coast compatible services as 400m formations using SDO could you?

Not personally....

 

[HSTEd]

Not personally....

Sorry, silly expression....

"I don't suppose 400m platforms could be built somewhere in Glasgow and then that the "compatible" trains to on the West Coast could be run as 400m Eurostar esque formations."

Better?

I know that siting 400m platforms in other destinations is near impossible (I tried with Edinburgh using Google Earth) but I don't know about other places like Glasgow and Liverpool.

 

[nerd]

Sorry, silly expression....

"I don't suppose 400m platforms could be built somewhere in Glasgow and then that the "compatible" trains to on the West Coast could be run as 400m Eurostar esque formations."

Better?

I know that siting 400m platforms in other destinations is near impossible (I tried with Edinburgh using Google Earth) but I don't know about other places like Glasgow and Liverpool.

only one HSR platform in each city is needed, assuming that the units have a dwell time of 20 minutes, before setting off back down south again.

In Edinburgh there is easily space for a 400m platform in place of the unused platform 0 at Haymarket.

In Glasgow, I understnad the plan is to build a 400m HSR platform running into High Street. This is trickier, as the lines towards Bellegrove are not dead straight (unlike at Haymarket). But I understand that is where the City Council have decided

 

[HSTEd]

only one HSR platform in each city is needed, assuming that the units have a dwell time of 20 minutes, before setting off back down south again.

In Edinburgh there is easily space for a 400m platform in place of the unused platform 0 at Haymarket.

In Glasgow, I understnad the plan is to build a 400m HSR platform running into High Street. This is trickier, as the lines towards Bellegrove are not dead straight (unlike at Haymarket). But I understand that is where the City Council have decided

Unfortunately Edinburgh would need one on the east side of Waverley to support east Coast compatible trains, which would presumably be required to terminate there.

Come to think of it a platform would be needed at Newcastle, and I think it is rather hard to arrange without remodelling the northern end of the station to take up space in the carpark... I assume the trainshed is listed?

And one platform each might be pushing it in times of disruption, two platforms would be far superior in terms of redundancy.

 

[Nym]

Or one could run cockayed lengths of dual units, of 140 and 260m each, with the 140m unit breaking off for a lesser used branch at York, Sheffeild etc...?

 

[nerd]

Unfortunately Edinburgh would need one on the east side of Waverley to support east Coast compatible trains, which would presumably be required to terminate there.

Come to think of it a platform would be needed at Newcastle, and I think it is rather hard to arrange without remodelling the northern end of the station to take up space in the carpark... I assume the trainshed is listed?

And one platform each might be pushing it in times of disruption, two platforms would be far superior in terms of redundancy.

I was thinking predominantly of platforms for HS2 Phase 3 captive train sets, but effectively the planning for 200m/400m compatible sets is the same. At present, of course, the Phase 2 configuration is for two hourly 400m compatible services from Euston to run up the WCML and split at Carstairs. There is no plan, at Phase 2, for compatible sets to run into Scotland from Newcastle; and if they did, they would suffer in comparison with those going down the WCML.


The suggested splitting has aroused a fair amount of ridicule amongst the Scots; but the alternative would be for one 400m service per hour to each of Glasgow and Edinburgh, with a connecting shuttle service between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Carstairs. But that assumes that the Scots are able to build Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh as standalone high speed line in advance of the stately progress of English HS2 north from either Wigan or York. In which case the Haymarket and High Street HSR platforms are going to be built to captive specs anyway.

So the compatible trains north won't be coming into Edinburgh from the East, but from the west stopping at Edinbrugh International Gateway (Gogar to you and me) first. Which is why the platform has to be at Haymarket. In any case Waverley is seriously difficult for access up to buses and trams; while Haymarket is pretty much on the level. The Glasgow-Edinbrugh shuttle, of course, won't be able to share use of the HSR platforms, but can presumably be built to Javelin specs, and so (as a classic compatible) will be able to run through from Waverley to Queen Street along their respective tunnels.

I agree that having only the one platform couild be tricky, and perhaps Glasgow will splash out and build two - as there is certainly space at High Street. Haymarket is trickier. and an extra platform could only be achieved with some demolition. More likely, in case of disruption, the Scots would simply terminate the Edinbugh services at Gogar (where there will certainly be two HSR platforms).

The Newcastle trainshed is listed grade I, and there is no possibility at all of shifting it. I'm inclined to think that a westward-facing Newcastle captive spur could best be provided alongside the Redheugh bridge on the Gateshead side of the river.

 

[steamdrivenand]

At present, of course, the Phase 2 configuration is for two hourly 400m compatible services from Euston to run up the WCML and split at Carstairs. There is no plan, at Phase 2, for compatible sets to run into Scotland from Newcastle; and if they did, they would suffer in comparison with those going down the WCML.

The suggested splitting has aroused a fair amount of ridicule amongst the Scots; but the alternative would be for one 400m service per hour to each of Glasgow and Edinburgh, with a connecting shuttle service between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Carstairs. But that assumes that the Scots are able to build Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh as standalone high speed line in advance of the stately progress of English HS2 north from either Wigan or York.

Written on behalf of the Carstairs Development Agency I suspect.

Carstairs would surely qualify as the smallest place served by high speed rail

 

[nerd]

Written on behalf of the Carstairs Development Agency I suspect.

Carstairs would surely qualify as the smallest place served by high speed rail

indeed so; though there it is on all the diagrammes.

But so long as the Scots maintain their attitude of; 'We demand an immdeiate commitement to extend high speed rail from England to Scotland; but we refuse to commit ourselves to any decisions as to where, within Scotland, it should run' some sorth of indeterminant configuration is inevitable; and that favours Carstairs - the UK capital of indeterminacy.