High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[nerd]

Stafford will recieve 1 HS2 service per hour in each direction. On London - Liverpool trip from phase 2.

not if the Liverpool Phase 2 services join HS2 at Crewe not Lichfield; as has been confirmed by Oakervee.

 

[YorkshireBear]

not if the Liverpool Phase 2 services join HS2 at Crewe not Lichfield; as has been confirmed by Oakervee.

Yes, there will be 2tph from liverpool, one connecting at crewe one connecting at lichfield via stafford.
Look at DFT ecnomic case for HS2.

 

[Philip Elliott]

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story". There was a similar fuss in Letchworth when the Hitchin flyover was built.

Yes, there will be 2tph from liverpool, one connecting at crewe one connecting at lichfield via stafford.
Look at DFT ecnomic case for HS2.

That plan predates the decision to connect at Crewe. To use that pattern would effectively make Liverpool have 1 tph - no one would take the slower one when the next fast one could overtake it.

 

[ole man]

Let me get this right, are they now thinking of connecting HS2 at Crewe instead if the original plan of Lichfield?.
Has anybody seen a map of this route?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Let me get this right, are they now thinking of connecting HS2 at Crewe instead if the original plan of Lichfield?.
Has anybody seen a map of this route?

Hmm, not sure. I think connection at crewe is phase 2 not phase 1 though. So there will be two connections to WCML. Confused? Me too. Cant wait for the proposals to come out. (he said before end of November, but we all know how likely that is!)

 

[Waverley125]

surely places like Stafford will get compensated with classic services? It will retain 1tph Liverpool, 1tph Manchester & gain potentially 1tph Blackpool North & 1tph Glasgow.

 

[ntg]

Looks like the current plans *officially* have grown..."the HS2 high speed rail link is to be extended to North West and West Yorkshire" according to the BBC from the Autumn statement by Osborne.

 

[xolotl]

Looks like the current plans *officially* have grown..."the HS2 high speed rail link is to be extended to North West and West Yorkshire" according to the BBC from the Autumn statement by Osborne.

Does anyone know what this could be? It wouldn't surprise me if it simply refers to the announcement for the route of phase 2.

 

[Padav]

@xolotl: "Does anyone know what this could be? It wouldn't surprise me if it simply refers to the announcement for the route of phase 2."

I think you'd be correct in assuming that.

The government is waiting, as I predicted in another thread, to see the outcome of the Judicial Review hearings, taking place this week. I thought they might use the Christmas break as some kind of cover for this long awaited announcement but it seems they want to see Justice Ouseley's pronouncements first.

 

[ess]

Why does there need to be a new station? Doesn't sound like an integrated transport policy. Unless it's next to the bus station.

 

[Geezertronic]

Is anything confirmed for HS2 north of Lichfield yet?

 

[starrymarkb]

Only that it'll be going further north, detailed route plans next year

 

[Welshman]

Why does there need to be a new station? Doesn't sound like an integrated transport policy. Unless it's next to the bus station.

I agree about the lack of an integrated policy.

But from what I understand, the existing Leeds station has little spare capacity at present, with no scope for expansion.

Also, if the HS services could be accommodated, would there not then be capacity issues with the two-line stretch over the viaduct to Marsh Lane?

 

[Chris125]

Why does there need to be a new station? Doesn't sound like an integrated transport policy. Unless it's next to the bus station.

The existing station simply doesn't have the room or the capacity - HS2 will need a number of 400m platforms built to the same standards as the rest of the high speed network, served by lines built to a larger european loading gauge.

Chris

 

[Nym]

The existing station simply doesn't have the room or the capacity - HS2 will need a number of 400m platforms built to the same standards as the rest of the high speed network, served by lines built to a larger european loading gauge.

Chris

Technically there is room, especially if you re-open a different station for local trains and/or double deck parts of it...

Just that it's prohibitively expensive, although the two station option is reasonable at the moment. (Yes, I'm looking at you Whitehall Road)

 

[Mugby]

Could this possibly mean a revival of Leeds Central?

 

[Nym]

Is one of the solutions that does seem to present itself.

The others being double decking or the Hunslet Goods site... (Crown Point Retail Pk)

 

[Waverley125]

The station build at Crown Point will, with a connecting footbridge over the Aire, be about 200m from City station. It's not a problem.

As for why not at City, or anywhere other than CP:

1. There's no space at city: new platforms would take up the area that is planned for platform expansion to service the A&W and Harrogate lines

2. Double decking won't work: Prohibitively expensive, especially then given the need for an extra-height viaduct, and the destruction of the station interior.

3. No space on exits: Every corridor out of the city is in intensive us, with plans for more services making that more problematic

(this is why the plan for a chord from the Wakefield line to Huddersfield line doesn't work. 6tph TPX, plus at least 2tph Northern, plus 2tph on the Wakefield line plus 2tph EC simply doesn't go).

4. Central's taken: There's plans for a several hundred millionpond redevelopment of the West End that would cost far too much to buy out. Not only would you have to buy the land, you'd have to demolish many high-vale office buildings, and still have the access problems above.

CROWN POINT:

low-value brownfield site, adjacent to City Centre, on the South Side which is a redevelopment target, and will drive investment both into Clarence Dock & Brewery Wharf. Accessed off an existing rail corridor (to Methley) which can be engineered for more lines without difficult.

Also brings the line out of Leeds in the best place for a Delta-Junction to both North & Southbound trains on HS2.

 

[Welshman]

4. Central's taken: There's plans for a several hundred millionpond redevelopment of the West End that would cost far too much to buy out. Not only would you have to buy the land, you'd have to demolish many high-vale office buildings, and still have the access problems above.

And even if the site of Central were available, it could only accommodate Airedale/Harrogate services [presumably via a new Geldard curve] without replacing the bridge at the site of Holbeck stations and undoing much of the major work done in 1967 to enable trains to concentrate on City station.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I thought Leeds Central had now become the Ilkley/Skipton terminating platforms plus the multi storey car park?

 

[Nym]

I thought Leeds Central had now become the Ilkley/Skipton terminating platforms plus the multi storey car park?

Not quite, having a look at the RCH diagram it is Wellington that was merged in...

 

[bewildered]

The Leeds HS2 station will be south of the river and more than likely at Crown Point pushing into the old Tetleys yards. The council want this as they plan to kickstart the regeneration of the south of the river

 

[Chris125]

The station build at Crown Point will, with a connecting footbridge over the Aire, be about 200m from City station. It's not a problem.

If you mean the retail park south of the A61 it looks more like 600m+ on google maps.

A station in the Holbeck area would be much closer to the existing station - if built along Bath Road as far north as Globe Road and the canal it would be less than 100m from the existing station and new developments on the other side of the river. I can't see any obvious issues with such a site but im happy to be corrected.

Chris

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
A while back I came up with a map of the various Leeds HS2 station options that I thought might be considered. It was posted in the HS2 Discussion thread (pg66) but I think it's worth showing again...

The green options are for through stations. The red are for terminating stations. I suppose that with a sharpish turn, the terminus at Crown Point retail park could become a through station...


Personally I think that if it's a terminus it'll be at Crown Point retail park. If it's a through station then the resuse of the old viaduct allignment and a station in Holbeck, close to the existing station, would be cost effective and quite practical.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[Oswyntail]

IF you are going to put a station in Leeds, then a) it needs to be a through station, IMHO and b) it needs to serve the north of the city centre. Dropping people off in Crown Point will serve no one except those wishing to visit Argos. For both those points, one should realise that the expansion of Leeds into a "financial centre" in the 90's stalled badly around 8 years ago. Government and commercial interests are pulling back to London.
A really imaginative and helpful site for an HS2 station would actually be in neighbouring Bradford. More space, more opportunity for redevelopment, more workforce. And a more sensible onward route round the South and East of Leeds. As either of the South Leeds sites would require additional rapid transit provision to get anyone where they actually needed to be, the similar requirements for Bradford would not be too much extra.

 

[JohnCarlson]

IF you are going to put a station in Leeds, then a) it needs to be a through station, IMHO and b) it needs to serve the north of the city centre. Dropping people off in Crown Point will serve no one except those wishing to visit Argos. For both those points, one should realise that the expansion of Leeds into a "financial centre" in the 90's stalled badly around 8 years ago. Government and commercial interests are pulling back to London.
A really imaginative and helpful site for an HS2 station would actually be in neighbouring Bradford. More space, more opportunity for redevelopment, more workforce. And a more sensible onward route round the South and East of Leeds. As either of the South Leeds sites would require additional rapid transit provision to get anyone where they actually needed to be, the similar requirements for Bradford would not be too much extra.

I'm not impressed with the idea of Crown Point either. Its just to far from the existing station and could only really be a terminus. Just too much work is needed to make it a through station.


The land to the south west of Leeds station looks like it has possibilities to me.

Not at all sure about the idea of Bradford but its a shame that the bullet has never been bit and both of Bradford's stations linked.

 

[Rational Plan]

Oh I am sorry where is the extra couple of billion going to come from to build a high speed underground through route?

 

[Nym]

I think it's in the same room as the realisation of most people in the forum that is lacking for the realisation of the additional regulations and costs surrounding sub surface railway stations?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Speaking to people at engineering firms recently it has been leaked to them that the station is to be built over the current station.

For my HS2 proposal at uni i slotted it in that big bit of derelict land where leeds central used to be with low level platforms for A&W and harrogate lines to free up space at Leeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IF you are going to put a station in Leeds, then a) it needs to be a through station, IMHO and b) it needs to serve the north of the city centre. Dropping people off in Crown Point will serve no one except those wishing to visit Argos. For both those points, one should realise that the expansion of Leeds into a "financial centre" in the 90's stalled badly around 8 years ago. Government and commercial interests are pulling back to London.
A really imaginative and helpful site for an HS2 station would actually be in neighbouring Bradford. More space, more opportunity for redevelopment, more workforce. And a more sensible onward route round the South and East of Leeds. As either of the South Leeds sites would require additional rapid transit provision to get anyone where they actually needed to be, the similar requirements for Bradford would not be too much extra.

There is no route out of the North of Leeds. Trust me i have spent hours trawling through map after map after map. Only solution i came up with was to build track over the existing to neville hill depot. Decided against it.

But it doesnt need to be a through station. Newcastle trains are not intending on stopping at Leeds. It seems to me the spur will be built to York sout of leeds but north of sheffield.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Oh I am sorry where is the extra couple of billion going to come from to build a high speed underground through route?

Oh for god sake I am just saying that its a pitty this has never happened not suggesting that it be done right now. Get a grip.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it's in the same room as the realisation of most people in the forum that is lacking for the realisation of the additional regulations and costs surrounding sub surface railway stations?

I think this post is a prime example of how gobbledegook expands to fit the space available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Speaking to people at engineering firms recently it has been leaked to them that the station is to be built over the current station.

For my HS2 proposal at uni i slotted it in that big bit of derelict land where leeds central used to be with low level platforms for A&W and harrogate lines to free up space at Leeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is no route out of the North of Leeds. Trust me i have spent hours trawling through map after map after map. Only solution i came up with was to build track over the existing to neville hill depot. Decided against it.

But it doesnt need to be a through station. Newcastle trains are not intending on stopping at Leeds. It seems to me the spur will be built to York sout of leeds but north of sheffield.

My thoughts are that many of the trains going north east from Birmingham will not run into Leeds but through places like Doncaster to York and then on to Newcastle.

looking at Google earth it might be possible to build a fast line from the area south west of Nevil Hill onto the ECML. It would be a tight fit though.