High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[RobShipway]

Indeed, I've been attempting to discern the Western arm's route ever since phase 1 was placed in the public domain. I put together my best guess, based on an mix of various snippets gleaned from a variety of sources and posted it on to another thread here. Like you I'm not in a privileged position. I am strongly supportive of HS2, even though it seems likely that the phase 2 western branch will pass in relatively close proximity to my house (I live in Alderley Edge).

We do know that the Western branch will pass close to Blithfield Reservoir - what is not clear is which side, East or West - if it's to the East (and I believe it will be), a route East of the Stoke on Trent conurbation is near enough certain. This would keep the line well to the East of Cannock Chase - another limiting factor will be the Peak District National Park and higher ground, so we have a good idea which area through which the line must pass?

I believe the line will take a generally North-West trajectory passing under Brown Edge and Mow Cop, skirting along (perhap 500m distant) the South-Eastern edge of Congleton before beginning to turn in a very large arc to a more directly north direction, descending into cutting before passing under the runways at Manchester Airport from the South-South-West. At this point (of closest proximity to me) the line will be approximately 3000m East of my house.

I am convinced that there will be a Manchester South hub station situtated within the environs of Manchester Airport - this will be a through station, which my best guess shows as subterranean, more or less at right angles to the existing Airport Station (connected from below by escalators). This tunnelled line then continues directly North beneath the heavily built up Wythenshawe housing estates before surfacing closer to the city centre (Baguely area?) possibly following the Princess Parkway alignment into Manchester itself.

Some debate about the site of a Manchester terminus station - could be at Manchester Mayfield although I accept that this would be challenging, but not impossible, given the requirement for 400m long platforms?

Apologies for the issues it would cause you Padav, but I would have thought making Manchester Airport the Manchester hub for HS2 would be the most sensible approach rather than building a separate station as it will have both the Metrolink Tram and the ability to go on into Manchester by local trains will it not?

 

[Padav]

Apologies for the issues it would cause you Padav, but I would have thought making Manchester Airport the Manchester hub for HS2 would be the most sensible approach rather than building a separate station as it will have both the Metrolink Tram and the ability to go on into Manchester by local trains will it not?

It's not an issue for me, @Robbies, having a station located at Manchester Airport - I repeat, I remain strongly supportive of HS2, despite its relative proximity to my house - during the period between completion of phases 1 & 2, the Classic Compatible trainsets will operate on the WCML into Manchester, which runs approx 600m East of my house - I can see the line right now out of my window!

I have to dispute your conclusions here - particularly your assumption that a terminus at Manchester Airport would somehow be a "more sensible approach". Suggest that idea within the corridors of Manchester Town Hall and you are likely to find yourself slung out on your ear, toute suite! There would be a nuclear explosion amongst Manchester's political élites if this was suggested - sorry but you're just plain wrong on that score.

There will be a City Centre Manchester terminus station, nothing is more certain - where exactly I don't know 100% (Mayfield is definitely a possible option) but implementing your idea would have two massive disadvantages;

1. An Airport terminus would effectively eliminate much (if not all) of the timesaving potential for residents of Greater Manchester and its environs (at least all those not living to the South of the conurbation, which means most of them!), destroying much of the business case - I don't actually accept the basis upon which the business case is largely predicated, ie. placing a value upon time saved but unfortunately it is a pre-requisite demanded to justify the outlay (I call it investment) of taxpayers money.

2. There would be no regeneration effects flowing from a City Centre Manchester station - these would be centred on the Airport and its environs and if you are acquainted with Manchester, you'd know that the Airport is already one of the few economic hotspots in the Region - this is why your idea would be roundly condemned by the movers and shakers across NW. England generally - in short the very last thing your idea is, is sensible!!!

 

[DXMachina]

2. There would be no regeneration effects flowing from a City Centre Manchester station - these would be centred on the Airport and its environs and if you are acquainted with Manchester, you'd know that the Airport is already one of the few economic hotspots in the Region - this is why your idea would be roundly condemned by the movers and shakers across NW. England generally - in short the very last thing your idea is, is sensible!!!

I won't dispute the truth of anything in this paragraph

However I would question the assumptions. You clearly define and see an HS link as being a tool for economic regeneration bringing benefits that broaden the trickle-down of wealth from revenue sources like city centres, business districts and airports

I'm not so sure thats the main idea. Local railways definitely do spread the wealth (Watch what happens to West Watford property prices when the Croxley Rail Link extends the Metropolitan line to there) by allowing commuting.

I saw HS links as a way to bring existing wealth centres closer together more cleanly to reduce air traffic, reduce pollution, and increase intra-national trade and communications. I assumed that was why the initial plans linked first the Channel Tunnel to London, then London to Birmingham.

If HS links are primarily economic tools surely we should be starting by building to Scotland and the West Country.

 

[Padav]

Please note that whilst the regeneration effects in and around HS stations are only one part of the equation, for decision makers in Manchester, its value in acting as a catalyst for stimulating growth and generating jobs for Mancunians can't be overstated.

If HS links are primarily economic tools surely we should be starting by building to Scotland and the West Country.

Building HS2 remains controversial - without strong political commitment underpinning the project, it would never see the light of day. Love or loath 'em the anti-HS2 brigade, concentrated almost exclusively in and around the pathway of phase1, are well organised, well funded, well connected and more than willing to go the distance in their attempts to frustrate HS2 as currently configured (of course their opposition would evaporate if the route was moved, anywhere will do just as long as it's nowhere near them!) - they are punching well above their weight.

This reality means that the project must concentrate on generating an obvious return and that means passenger numbers. That's why the long term strategy to roll out High Speed Rail across the UK begins between London and Birmingham, thence to Manchester and Leeds. Only after this basic spine is underway, ie. in the construction phase, will ideas for extension (I agree that NE.England, Scotland and the West Country/S.Wales should be added to the UK Regions benefiting from connection to the High Speed network) be seriously considered.

 

[RobShipway]

Please note that whilst the regeneration effects in and around HS stations are only one part of the equation, for decision makers in Manchester, its value in acting as a catalyst for stimulating growth and generating jobs for Mancunians can't be overstated.



Building HS2 remains controversial - without strong political commitment underpinning the project, it would never see the light of day. Love or loath 'em the anti-HS2 brigade, concentrated almost exclusively in and around the pathway of phase1, are well organised, well funded, well connected and more than willing to go the distance in their attempts to frustrate HS2 as currently configured (of course their opposition would evaporate if the route was moved, anywhere will do just as long as it's nowhere near them!) - they are punching well above their weight.

This reality means that the project must concentrate on generating an obvious return and that means passenger numbers. That's why the long term strategy to roll out High Speed Rail across the UK begins between London and Birmingham, thence to Manchester and Leeds. Only after this basic spine is underway, ie. in the construction phase, will ideas for extension (I agree that NE.England, Scotland and the West Country/S.Wales should be added to the UK Regions benefiting from connection to the High Speed network) be seriously considered.

I see your point, but I think there is one point both you and the Manchester City Hall are missing, in fact I think it is missing in Birmingham as well, which is that HS2 is being desogned for two reasons in my view:

1) To quicken Journeys between the Cities
2) To lessen the need for people to be taking Internal flights within the UK between major cities.

Point two is the point I am coming from as within details I have read it would seem to do as was done with Ashford and HS1 to be extending existing railway stations to incompass HS2. Any report that you read on HS2 states that there should be a connection with Birmingham International Airport in phase 1, however because of the NEC that will not be so easy so within that a new station needs to be built.

But in phase 2, connections need to be made with East Midlands and Manchester Airports I believe personally. However, this can be connecting lines that run into HS2 which I think should be the case for East Midlands Airport. Manchester Airport station though, last time I was up had a fair bit of space that is being allowed for it to grow which is why I think HS2 should be going through to it. Even, if a separate station maybe used for Manchester City Centre.

I saw a video earlier today on Manchester Mayfield station which is underneath Picadilly as Mayfield used to be the Parcelforce site. I think it would be better maybe to do up Mayfield to take the local trains if it is to be used and then leave Picaddily with the Inter City trains including the trains for HS2.

 

[Padav]

1) To quicken Journeys between the Cities
2) To lessen the need for people to be taking Internal flights within the UK between major cities.

1. Yes, of course High Speed Rail will reduce journey times but the primary rationale driving HS2 (and specifically phase 1 of the project between London and Birmingham) is the massive increase in capacity and reliability provided by the new line, right where it's needed.
2. Phase 1 of the new line has no impact whatsoever on internal (UK domestic flights) - there are no flights between Birmingham and London. Phase 2 (which we should recall is not due for completion until 2033) will have some impact but it's only when High Speed Rail reaches NE.England, Scotland and the West Country that it will have a significant effect on domestic UK flights. However the impact on carbon emissions flowing from this will be minimal because the number of flights involved is relatively small.

Where High Speed Rail will have a greater beneficial effect is in two areas;
1. Encouraging modal transfer from the private car to railborne alternatives for inter city journeys
2. Creating a credible railborne alternative to intra-European short-haul airborne journeys, which constitute a much more significant (and growing) percentage of UK carbon emissions. The business models of Jet2.Com (Manchester based), RyanAir and EasyJet (plus numerous other smaller players) is predicated on buoyant demand for seats on the hundreds of services operating out of UK Provincial Airports; Birmingham, Manchester, East Midlands, Doncaster (Robin Hood), Leeds-Bradford, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh to near European mainland destinations.

I saw a video earlier today on Manchester Mayfield station which is underneath Picadilly as Mayfield used to be the Parcelforce site. I think it would be better maybe to do up Mayfield to take the local trains if it is to be used and then leave Picaddily with the Inter City trains including the trains for HS2.

Can't comment on the video you refer to but I can tell you that Manchester Mayfield station is NOT underneath Piccadilly. Mayfield is directly adjacent (approx 250m to the South) but separate from Piccadilly, which is precisely why it makes a suitable HS2 terminus candidate - we should note that the UK's continued bunker mentality, in the form of non-participation in the Schengen border-free zone, means that any station offering cross-border train services, ie. to Paris, Brussels and probably other mainland European cities, must be capable of hosting associated immigration and security facilities.

 

[RobShipway]

1. Yes, of course High Speed Rail will reduce journey times but the primary rationale driving HS2 (and specifically phase 1 of the project between London and Birmingham) is the massive increase in capacity and reliability provided by the new line, right where it's needed.
2. Phase 1 of the new line has no impact whatsoever on internal (UK domestic flights) - there are no flights between Birmingham and London. Phase 2 (which we should recall is not due for completion until 2033) will have some impact but it's only when High Speed Rail reaches NE.England, Scotland and the West Country that it will have a significant effect on domestic UK flights. However the impact on carbon emissions flowing from this will be minimal because the number of flights involved is relatively small.

Where High Speed Rail will have a greater beneficial effect is in two areas;
1. Encouraging modal transfer from the private car to railborne alternatives for inter city journeys
2. Creating a credible railborne alternative to intra-European short-haul airborne journeys, which constitute a much more significant (and growing) percentage of UK carbon emissions. The business models of Jet2.Com (Manchester based), RyanAir and EasyJet (plus numerous other smaller players) is predicated on buoyant demand for seats on the hundreds of services operating out of UK Provincial Airports; Birmingham, Manchester, East Midlands, Doncaster (Robin Hood), Leeds-Bradford, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh to near European mainland destinations.

Can't comment on the video you refer to but I can tell you that Manchester Mayfield station is NOT underneath Piccadilly. Mayfield is directly adjacent (approx 250m to the South) but separate from Piccadilly, which is precisely why it makes a suitable HS2 terminus candidate - we should note that the UK's continued bunker mentality, in the form of non-participation in the Schengen border-free zone, means that any station offering cross-border train services, ie. to Paris, Brussels and probably other mainland European cities, must be capable of hosting associated immigration and security facilities.

Here is the vidoe link from Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-4ph3jRcG4

 

[Clip]

Here is the vidoe link from Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-4ph3jRcG4

And here is a thread on Mayfield station with pictures which quite clearly shows the station and its close proximity to Piccadilly.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63693

*I cant watch the video right now mind you.

 

[WatcherZero]

Government has decided to try and get all legal challenges combined and heard at the same time in the High Court so it can fight them off once rather than half a dozen times. Risky strategy though, hope they have very good lawyers.

 

[Holly]

... I saw a video earlier today on Manchester Mayfield station which is underneath Piccadilly as Mayfield used to be the Parcelforce site. I think it would be better maybe to do up Mayfield to take the local trains if it is to be used and then leave Piccadilly with the Inter City trains including the trains for HS2.

Mayfield station is immediately South of Piccadilly Station, Manchester. Underneath is sometimes used colloquially in Southern usage English as slang for South, alluding to the usual and historically favoured map orientation of North to the top of the map. Hence possible confusion.

For there to be sufficient space for HS2 trains to use Piccadilly the Pendolino trains would have to be moved to Mayfield. This would involve increasing the throat real estate of both Piccadilly and Mayfield and rearranging the entire track layout of the approaches to Piccadilly (obviously a huge undertaking and a major disruption). This is in addition to increasing the through platform tracks from two to four; four through platforms may be envisioned as essentially being located between Piccadilly and Mayfield.

I was informed, in another place, that Pendolinos cannot be relocated to Mayfield anyway because the (fast) tracks they use are located in the wrong place. Though I suppose if one is rearranging everything it would be possible to move those tracks also.

 

[Nym]

Mayfield station is immediately South of Piccadilly Station, Manchester. Underneath is sometimes used colloquially in Southern usage English as slang for South, alluding to the usual and historically favoured map orientation of North to the top of the map. Hence possible confusion.

For there to be sufficient space for HS2 trains to use Piccadilly the Pendolino trains would have to be moved to Mayfield. This would involve increasing the throat real estate of both Piccadilly and Mayfield and rearranging the entire track layout of the approaches to Piccadilly (obviously a huge undertaking and a major disruption). This is in addition to increasing the through platform tracks from two to four; four through platforms may be envisioned as essentially being located between Piccadilly and Mayfield.

I was informed, in another place, that Pendolinos cannot be relocated to Mayfield anyway because the (fast) tracks they use are located in the wrong place. Though I suppose if one is rearranging everything it would be possible to move those tracks also.

It might be, but then you'd have a hell of a lot of crossing movements to deal with, since the slow lines currently feed on from the Airport lines and out through the 13-16 lines, so moving the fasts over would simple move crossing movements back down toward Slade Lane or Longsight.

IMO it would be better to retain the station building at Mayfeild as a satellite circulation, customs, and ticketing area and flatten the rest of Baring St Ind Est with it's low land value and build up the 400m HS2 platforms there, a new 2 or 4 track viaduct (2 classic & 2 HS2 if 4) down to Longsight where one would have the tunnel portal to get down to Manchester Airport, or go curvey and loose some housing and widen the Styal Branch to run out that way.

This would also mean as little interference with the operational railway as possible, with new viaduct structures being able to be put in place independently and only Manchester Intl. Depot being affected (closed). So building this won't in any way seriously affect railway operations.

If one provides four tracks on the new viaducting, a natural progression would be 6 track between Longsight and Slade Lane with the inclusion of grade separation at Slade Lane.

Either way, I think we need to be looking at New Viaduct to Longsight, Tunnels to Sale Water Park (Junction) and then overground for the Northbound connection, Southbound connection tunneling under Alty or going surface on the old M60 alignment and the through side of the delta in 3mi of tunnel under Alty. With a very large additional chunk of station being provided at Baring Street so that other 'javelin' services can also run and take pressure off the rest of the lines into Manchester. Those that could be diverted into the new station, or via the new route into Piccadilly would include.

2tph Blackpool North via Wigan
2tph Liverpool Lime St via CLC or Chat Moss (Or Both)
1tph Manchester - Scotland
2tph Warrington BQ / Chester / Llandudno. Etc.

 

[Holly]

... l to get down to Manchester Airport, or go curvey and loose some housing and widen the Styal Branch to run out that way. ...

Wouldn't it be cheaper to double-deck the Styal branch than to widen it?
Or for that matter cheaper to double-deck than to tunnel the same distance.

I could easily be wrong on this, I often am.

 

[Nym]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to double-deck the Styal branch than to widen it?
Or for that matter to tunnel the same distance.

I could easily be wrong on this, I often am.

For the amount of additional structure required, no.

The best option I have come up with so far is two tunnels, possibly one tunnel with the loss of about 30 businesses and 5 homes.

 

[Padav]

@Nym / @Holly

OK, I'm with you all the way on the complete rebuild of Mayfield as HS2 city centre Manchester terminus, reworking of the throat using a new viaduct arrangement - looking at the satellite images of the area on Google Earth, this is the only way to facilitate 400m long platforms on the site.

However, I'm also convinced that the majority of the line between city centre Manchester and Manchester Airport will be tunnelled and you don't seem to have adressed the issue of how the phase 2 route exits from Manchester Airport southwards?

We already know that the line from its current stated phase 1 finishing point close to Handsacre will travel approx 59 miles largely above ground in a North Westerly direction. This places you in a position roughly south-west of Wilmlsow, north east of Knutsford, just to the east of Mobberley and directly south of the runways at Manchester Airport. From there it is planned to route approximately 11 miles into city centre Manchester, more than half it tunnelled.

My conclusion therefore, is that the route will descend into cutting from the location described above before passing directly under the Airport runways to rendez-vous with the existing classic line Airport station terminus more or less at right angles but below, linked by escalators and lifts for those travellers wishing to transfer/connect using classic line services operating to/from the Airport from non-Manchester locations.

From there, this phase 2 through route would travel in a northerly direction, still in tunnel, directly beneath the heavily built up Wythenshawe area and eventually emerge at the portal you describe close to the redesigned Piccadilly/Mayfield throat area. How much of the interceding pathway would be above ground (perhaps in deep cutting?) is open to debate?

 

[Nym]

@Nym / @Holly

OK, I'm with you all the way on the complete rebuild of Mayfield as HS2 city centre Manchester terminus, reworking of the throat using a new viaduct arrangement - looking at the satellite images of the area on Google Earth, this is the only way to facilitate 400m long platforms on the site.

However, I'm also convinced that the majority of the line between city centre Manchester and Manchester Airport will be tunnelled and you don't seem to have adressed the issue of how the phase 2 route exits from Manchester Airport southwards?

We already know that the line from its current stated phase 1 finishing point close to Handsacre will travel approx 59 miles largely above ground in a North Westerly direction. This places you in a position roughly south-west of Wilmlsow, north east of Knutsford, just to the east of Mobberley and directly south of the runways at Manchester Airport. From there it is planned to route approximately 11 miles into city centre Manchester, more than half it tunnelled.

My conclusion therefore, is that the route will descend into cutting from the location described above before passing directly under the Airport runways to rendez-vous with the existing classic line Airport station terminus more or less at right angles but below, linked by escalators and lifts for those travellers wishing to transfer/connect using classic line services operating to/from the Airport from non-Manchester locations.

From there, this phase 2 through route would travel in a northerly direction, still in tunnel, directly beneath the heavily built up Wythenshawe area and eventually emerge at the portal you describe close to the redesigned Piccadilly/Mayfield throat area. How much of the interceding pathway would be above ground (perhaps in deep cutting?) is open to debate?

I'd have a westerly approach into MIA, with an above ground station around the area just to the North of the M56 Spur (currently undeveloped) with a junction immediately West of the M56, then the through line going north to Caitshead crossing over the ship canal, using the old embankments. The other either going straight into a tunnel, or heading on the old M60 alignment through industrial estates to Sale Water Park, then in a tunnel to Longsight. Either way there would be another side of the Delta junction at Sale Water Park to give northbound access, overground North of Carrington to meet the main line and cross the Ship Canal, before having another station near Birchwood North of the M62.

Something roughly like this I worked would only need 10k of tunnels tops, and about 10-15 houses, maybe a few back gardens, and 15 businesses.

The alternative follows roughly the same alignment anyway, but more tunneley with an open box junction near Sale Water Park.

http://g.co/maps/kjq39

 

[Padav]

@Nym
I can see where you're coming from but there's one big problem with that arrangement and it is lack of direct integration with the existing classic line into Manchester Airport.

The Airport Station has already been expanded once since its original opening - now has 3 platforms? When the 2nd runway at Manchester was approved it was done on the strict understanding that efforts to foster alternative, non-car based, means of transport would be undertaken.

There are already a large number of under utilised services operating into the Airport station terminus, from Cumbria, Yorkshire and North East England. For commitments to expand rail as a credible alternative transport medium for Airport bound passengers to happen must surely mean seamless integration (of HS2) with the existing rail infrastructure. That can't happen with the network layout you've described?

 

[Nym]

It was a play off for that layout, weather to use the cheaper option of an above ground station and 5min transfer with moving walkways, realising that most passengers will be Park & Ride rather than using HS2 for rapid transit to the Airport. Building above ground is significantly cheaper. There is also a heck of a lot under the Airport that screws up tunnelling plans. It only takes 12mins to do Piccadilly - Airport as it is and it's isn't heavily loaded, so that isn't a flow that I'd be catering for.

 

[Padav]

@Nym

Just looked at your map and it's carefully thought out in terms of approach into city centre Manchester and an arrangement to facilitate both North and South travelling services out of both city centre Manchester and the planned Manchester South hub station at the Airport. So far so good.

However, there doesn't seem to be anything in terms of through routing to connect this layout arrangement with the line coming north. This is where I am confused. To benefit fully from fast transit times, surely the driving raison d'etre of High Speed Rail, the Manchester South hub station (at the Airport) must be a through route - this can only happen if the layout you've shown continues southwards. The only credible way it can do that is via a tunnel underneath the runways (in the manner I've described) - otherwise it goes smack through the middle of Wilmslow and you don't even want to go there with that idea!

 

[Nym]

The line to the North joins in to the Chat Moss Line and WCML near Newton and Wigan on what I have come up with.

To the south, you loop round to the south between the station and the current and of the A555

 

[Padav]

@Nym
Let's leave the route to the North for the moment - I can perceive the logic in your idea, although I might take issue with some precise pathways - I have to assume that large parts of the layout shown are tunnelled - for example it goes right through the middle of the Manchester University campus site at Owens Park!

That said, I'm struggling to understand your rationale with regard to your layout linking up to the line coming from the South.

I maintain my advocacy of two Manchester Stations on the route into the City Centre Manchester from the South with the Manchester South hub as a through running stop. We know that stopping creates a time penalty and these are crucial in the High Speed Rail equation. They are therefore considered very seriously - it's likely for example that there will no station in Staffordshire, which local decision makers there are not chuffed about one little bit.

However if you're stopping in a major conurbation, it makes sense to maximise the value, in terms of potential passenger numbers, of the time penalty incurred by having two stops in relatively close proximity - you can see this logic at work with Marne La Vallée and Roissy/CDG on the LGV Interconnexion Est and also with Frankfurt (Main) Hbf and Frankfurt Flughafen on the Köln-Frankfurt line

You seem to have devoted a lot of thought to the arrangement facilitating HS services both North and South from Manchester but simply tacked on any consideration of services coming up from London to Manchester - this can't be right because the entire HS2 business case is predicated almost exclusively on providing massive new capacity (faster as well) between London - Birmingham - Manchester. Therefore it's services on these routes that must be considered first and foremost with ideas about services emanating out from Manchester to other provincial cities a mere afterthought - I realise this will create hostility up here in the sticks but that's the London-centric mindset at work for you and it's those for whom this sentiment is deeply entrenched making the decisions?

So when you say

To the south, you loop round to the south between the station and the current and of the A555

you'll have to be more specific - how exactly will this deliver a fast through service from London up to Manchester?

If you tag your layout arrangement on to mine from the South, it begins to make much more sense?

 

[Nym]

Linking up to the north will hold the same rationale as doing so at Birmingham, it will link the lines to the North, and will also provide the ability to provide javellin style services to Liverpool, Warrington BQ and Blackpool via Wigan, freeing capacity on other routes via Wigan, Warrington Central, Bolton and Eccles.

Manchester W Parkway and Manchester S Parkway wouldn't be called at by all services, only by local ones at both, in the javelin style, again, freeing up other capacity elsewhere.

You could re-arrange it for a N/S aligned station, but that diagram is mainly to demonstrate approaches into Manchester rather than the outer levels.

 

[Padav]

@Nym
I'm sorry but you've lost me completely

Please explain in detail your logic for determining the route between North Cheshire and and South Manchester. Better still, update your map showing the route linking the layout in and around Manchester to the main HS2 phase 2 pathway coming up from the South

HS2 has to provide a comprehensive set of transport solutions - it's no good providing fantastic new (Javelin based?) high speed local running services in and around North West England if the overall plan fails to deliver on the basic goal of providing a huge improvement in capacity, quality, speed and reliability of services between London - Birmingham - Manchester.

Such a strategy wouldn't even make it past first base with the HS2 planners, let alone scrutiny from naysayers in the anti-brigades!

 

[Padav]

@Nym
In other words, something like this

Although I'd move the whole trajectory (in close proximity to the Airport environs) approx 1km to the East so it intersects (at right angles) with the current Manchester Airport terminus station

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I've been busy avoiding more work and I've come up with some more ideas. Here's my speculation about the Leeds HS2 station.


Here are a lot of assumptions that need to be made or at least questions asked about where Leeds HS2 Station will be. What I'veasssumed is that, unlike Sheffield or Nottingham, this will be a city centre location. It also assumes that it will need to be able to cope with 400m trains. The minimum size would probably be 4 platform faces

■Will it be a through station?
■Will it be a terminus?
■Will there be links to allow running onto the exising network?
■Will it be connected to the current station?
Here are some ideas

There are three terminus station sites which are shown in red and two through station options shown in green



The first terminus option is on the site of the long abandoned Leeds Central Station

The advantages of this site are:

■Right size, long and wide enough
■Was once rail connected, allignments are still feasible
■Only a couple of building would need to be demolished

The disadvantages of this site are:
■No possibility of being a through station
■No way to access the station from the North
■A bit of a way from the existing station - interchanges not really easy
■Would have to build partly over the river meaning a partly elevated station



The second terminus option is on the site of the current car park (or the long abandoned Leeds Wellington Station)

The advantages of this site are:

■Right length for 400m trains
■It's part of the existing station - easy interchanges
■Through trains would use the existing station

The disadvantages of this site are:
■Rather narrow - may struggle to get 4 new 400m platform faces
■Will some of this space be used for general expansion of the station anyway?
■Tricky construction - partially over the river
■Complex trackwork needed to get to the new HS2 line and provide through running onto existing tracks
■Where would a replacement car park go?



The third terminus option is on the site of the old goods yard at Pottery Fields, now a retail park

The advantages of this site are:

■Right size, long and wide enough
■Was once rail connected, allignments into the site still exists
■Retail parks can be simply relocated with sufficient financial motivation
■It's flat and straighforward to build on

The disadvantages of this site are:
■It has been comprehesively redeveloped
■It's some distance from the existing station
■No possible way to serve trains from the North



The first through option is at Crown Point parallel to the existing track

The advantages of this site are:

■Right size, long and wide enough
■Existing railway thoroughfare
■Simplest connection to the North
■Not too much demolition required

The disadvantages of this site are:
■It's an elevated viaduct already - complex build?
■It's some distance from the existing station
■Would need to accomodate existing tracks through/around it
■How would the HS2 tracks get through the current Leeds station?



The second through option is at Holbeck. This would use the disused viaduct for the approach but rather than swinging back with the existing curves would have a new station. This would extend northeastwards on the site of mainly exisitng carparks. It would then tunnel under the office blocks and the river and emerge at Neville Hill Junction for access to the North.

The advantages of this site are:

■Right size, long and wide enough
■Approaches are simple, both to the south and north
■The approaches are smooth allowing fast through running if required
■Reasonably close to the new southern entrance to the existing station
■Not too much demolition required
■Minimal disruption to exising track layout and services

The disadvantages of this site are:
■It's an elevated viaduct already - complex build?
■It would require some low rise office blocks to be demolished
■It would need some tunnelling to access the North


Comments / idea / suggestions welcome. Abuse no so much...
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Nym]

For what I'd have in Leeds it would be in the current station car park, 1 level higher than the rest of the station so this can expand under the HS2 platforms to have a double deck station, then remaining on this higher up viaduct, the HS2 lines would leave via Holbeck out to a delta junction just south of Garforth, through services would use the main Leeds City station and join the main classic lines in Holbeck.

So a combination of your option 2 and 3, remember that HS lines can do tight curves, just not at speed, so station throughts is fine for a little bit of tightness..

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
Here are the route options I though of. I've already posted a link to this first bit but here are some notes to go with it.

Assumptions
■The East Midlands station will be at the Toton yard
■The route will branch from the main allignment of HS2


Here are two ideas, each rather different.

The black line is the published route of HS2.


Red Route
Leaves HS2 and curves around to the east of the National Arboretum

Crosses the existing tracks and then is built alongside the current Tamworth to Derby line on the east side


Would need a flyover/diveunder for the Burton-Leicester line junction


Burton station would get demolished and rebuilt on a slightly different allignment


Willington suffers a bit as the extra tracks are forced through

The line curves to the east, crosses the River Trent and runs parallelish to the A50

It continues eastwards, over the river, and follows the existing freight tracks through Castle Donnington

It then curves northwards as it crosses the M1 and crosses the River at Trentlock

There needs to be a flyover to get through/over Trent Junction and then it goes up the Erewash Valley line through Long Eaton to Toton

This is a very flat route with no major civil engineering apart from a number of river crossing bridges. There seem to be no tunnels needed.

Blue Route
Leaves HS2 just after the Birmingham delta junction

It runs just to the North (West) of the M42

Bit of a squeeze past Tamworth - may need to alter the motorway services to fit it in

Then alongside the M42 & A42 on the west side tto Measham

Across the A42 where it wiggles amd then up to Ashby on the east of the A42

Over the Leicester - Burton line and then use the short existing unused track stub

Past the villages of Newbold & Worthington using a much straighted allignment of the disused Derby - Ashby route and use this under the A42 and through the village of Tonge

Tunnel under East Midlands Airport which emerges near the M1 Junction 24 (Wouldn't an underground Airport station be nice?

Over the M1 and curve into an allignment to go through to Toton as the red route

This route seems shorter and whilst requiring more earthworks has one tunnel and far fewer river bridges than the red route. I suspect something like this is the preferred route
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Assumptions
■The East Midlands station will be at the Toton yard
■The Sheffield station will be at Meadowhall
The red and blue lines are the basic ideas. The pink section is an alternative route for part of the red route and the purple section is where it could join a part blue and part red route



Here are two ideas, each with a different focus.

Common bits
Leaves Toton yard and heads North. Will probably need a new faster allignemnt rather than follow the current Erewash valley line

The river bridge would also cross the current line, near the existing junction, and end up with the HS line on the east of the existing tracks


Red Route
This would follow the exising track past Ilkeston

The HS line would use a new faster allignment past Eastwood and then would need to be located carefully through the nature reserves built on the old industrial land


At / near the Midland Railway centre junction it would cross the existing tracks and again cross back south of Alfreton

There would probably need to be a short tunnel here

It continues northwards, curving slightly to avoid the villiage of Pisley

It then goes to the west of Holmewood

As it crosses the A617 it picks up the route of the Great Central Railway and, with some curve easing follows that past Arkwright Town to Staverly

In Staverly it uses the route of the new road which itself was built on the GCR allignment. A new replacement road will be needed

It reaches just to the west of Rensihaw - all options are the same from here northwards


Pink Alternative Route The route from Holmewood to Rensihaw is a bit curvey using the old GCR allignment. A straighter one could be considered.
As it crosses the A617 it would take a more easterly route

This would pass through the Staverly Country Park and use the existing, disused, Bolsover colliery route through the town.



Blue Route
This would diverge from the existing track and pass to the east of Eastwood through the undeveloped gap (near the Ikea store)

It runs just to the west of Newgate Priory (probably need a green tunnel her to ger away with this)

The village of Selston is in the way - a tunnel is probably the answer which can alsp pass under the M1

As it reaches the A38 and the outlet shopping mall it would follow somethingn close to the old GCR route for a mile or so

A gentle curve take it due north to the east of the M1

Opps - Harwick Hall grounds are in the way. A full or green tunnel may solve this

It passes to the west of Bolsover and crosses the M1 where the existing, disused colliery branch does

It then goes to the east of Staverly to Rensihaw


Purple Alternative Route The Hardwick Hall bit may be too tricky to get away with. It could be avoided.
From the A38 the route could head northwest past the Tibshelf motorway services

It could go through the village of Tibshelf on something similar to the old GCR allignment through it and then join the red route south of Holmewood



Common bits
From Renishaw head north using old abandoned allignemnts - there are plenty of them

Follow the freight only route to the east of the Orgreave opencast mine

The old disused route into Tinsley yard has far too sharp curves. A tunnel or flyover will be needed to cross the freight line and for the village of Catcliffe


It then runs along the east side of the old Tinsley yard


There are some warehouses and factories in the way - these would need to be demolished and replaced elsewhere


The station would be parallel to the M1, probably above the SuperTram track, next to Meadowhall shopping centre and it could easily be intergrated with the existing stations

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I think the red route is the more likely as the blue route passes through some pretty hilly terrain and would require a lot more tunnelling, cuttings and embankments. The red route on the other hand has some fairly constant gradients (at least as far as Alfreton) as there a several canals and the Erewash floodplain, so minimal cuttings and embankments.

 

[giblets]

I think the red route is the more likely as the blue route passes through some pretty hilly terrain and would require a lot more tunnelling, cuttings and embankments. The red route on the other hand has some fairly constant gradients (at least as far as Alfreton) as there a several canals and the Erewash floodplain, so minimal cuttings and embankments.

It's also a lot nearer residential areas, which would have more opposition and a strong likelihood of increased costs.

 

[NY Yankee]

The re-elected London mayor, Boris Johnson, has been urged to push for a high-speed rail link to Scotland.

Scottish Transport Minister Keith Brown has written to Mr Johnson, and all the newly-elected council chiefs in the north of England.

He wants discuss with them the benefits of a UK-wide fast rail network.

It is estimated taking the new line north of the border could cut as much as two hours from journey times between Glasgow and London.

The first phase of the new rail link, known as HS2, will end at Birmingham.

Mr Brown has sent a request for a meeting to 54 local authorities.

He said: "There is no better way for these new council leaders to prove they are progressive and working for the future of their local areas than to show their support for a high-speed rail line which would benefit the whole of the UK.

"The Scottish government looks forward to a future where Scotland stands on its own two feet as a nation, fully connected with its neighbouring communities.

"High-speed rail will play a huge part in that and sits squarely with this government's two defining policy objectives: to increase the rate of Scotland's economic growth and to develop a low carbon economy which leads the world in its ambition."

He added: "I have issued this invitation to show that Scotland is more than capable of taking the lead on innovation and partnership working, and because most local authorities north of London have already voiced their support for our proposals.

"I would hope that Mr Johnson will also see how London can only realise the full potential of high-speed rail when it connects all the way to Scotland."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17970151

I'm not that familiar with the political undertones of the proposal. The only thing I know is that Scotland wants to secede from the rest of the UK. In any case, I think high speed rail is a good idea. The project will create jobs. The railway would connect all of the UK's major cities, including London, Birmingham, and Manchester. In fact, a person could theoretically travel from Glasgow to Paris without taking a plane.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The only thing I know is that Scotland wants to secede from the rest of the UK.

I think the only person who really wants that is a certain Mr Salmond in Edinburgh, and his political party the SNP. I don't think many citizens are behind it. Personally I'm on the fence as it much lessens the chance of the UK ever being stuck with a Labour government again; however I am a Unionist.

In any case, I think high speed rail is a good idea.

That too is debatable for the UK, both on the gigantic cost and the fact of how close together all our major conurbations are compared to quite a few other HS nations.

The railway would connect all of the UK's major cities, including London, Birmingham, and Manchester. In fact, a person could theoretically travel from Glasgow to Paris without taking a plane.

The railway does already, in several cases by many different routes. A person can travel from Glasgow to Paris already by rail, WCML to London Euston (4h30), then a 10 minute walk to St Pancras for the Eurostar via HS1 to Paris (2h-2h30). It has already been debated in the past whether to extend some trains further afield into Britain, and though HS2 would aid this, I doubt it would be a necessity.