High Speed Rail beyond HS2

[Badger]

This probably sounds daft, but I had a dream about this and it worked in the dream where you have a high speed train running at 250mph from London to Glasgow - as it reaches the midlands, the couplers split, with the front half still going 250mph, and the rear end just coasts with no power and lands in Birmingham. Not sure how they'd get back!

 

[LE Greys]

This probably sounds daft, but I had a dream about this and it worked in the dream where you have a high speed train running at 250mph from London to Glasgow - as it reaches the midlands, the couplers split, with the front half still going 250mph, and the rear end just coasts with no power and lands in Birmingham. Not sure how they'd get back!

The GWR was ahead of you on that one!

(From Weymouth Model Rail Association website)

 

[Ivo]

Just thinking about that South Coast idea, what chance is there of a 140mph route on the South Coast alignment? Rather than go into Portsmouth though, why couldn't it skirt around the north of the area and stop somewhere around Cosham?

Having said that though, I wouldn't fancy its chances in Brighton. I think a linespeed upgrade would be better, and then have almost exclusively fast trains into Brighton and also the slows into Hove - except for a local service to probably Haywards Heath only, which would be timed to leave BTN and HHE just after the Express would. But anyway, back on the main topic...

This probably sounds daft, but I had a dream about this and it worked in the dream where you have a high speed train running at 250mph from London to Glasgow - as it reaches the midlands, the couplers split, with the front half still going 250mph, and the rear end just coasts with no power and lands in Birmingham. Not sure how they'd get back!

I've had ideas like that from dreams before now

Remember this folks?

 

[Eagle]

This probably sounds daft, but I had a dream about this and it worked in the dream where you have a high speed train running at 250mph from London to Glasgow - as it reaches the midlands, the couplers split, with the front half still going 250mph, and the rear end just coasts with no power and lands in Birmingham. Not sure how they'd get back!

That was the Brighton Railway's idea!

 

[brad465]

I'd like to see a MAGLEV high-speed line built here.

But, knowing costs, and testing requirements, it would probably take a very long time before it's even proposed.

 

[Cletus]

I'd like to see the current HS1 trains use the high speed line between Ashford and Dollands Moor instead of frustratingly running alongside them.

http://www.kentrail.org.uk/dollands_moor 2.htm

 

[jon0844]

Even if we built a super highway for cars that was 6 lanes wide, you'd still get idiots hogging lanes 5 and 6, so you'd still get nowhere unless you undertook everyone.

I'd fancy my chances better with rail travel taking lots of cars off the road - so we could make do with smaller roads (and perhaps more of them) than fewer massive motorways that work okay until something happens and you don't move for hours.

As mentioned above, any new super fuel could surely be used by rail (and air). I am sure battery technology will have advanced significantly by 2030, so we'll have batteries that last longer and charge quicker (even perhaps using inductive charging as you drive) and can worry about producing electricity at a single source than lots of engines in the vehicles themselves. I may of course be totally wrong!

 

[Zoe]

Even if we built a super highway for cars that was 6 lanes wide, you'd still get idiots hogging lanes 5 and 6, so you'd still get nowhere unless you undertook everyone.

Not if they were all driverless cars. By the time any new fuel source is ready to completely take over it's likely that cars will be driverless. This will not only result in a road having the potential for more capacity but also higher speeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd fancy my chances better with rail travel taking lots of cars off the road - so we could make do with smaller roads (and perhaps more of them) than fewer massive motorways that work okay until something happens and you don't move for hours.

It's not just cars that would need taking off the road though, quite a few motorways are often full of trucks.

 

[HSTEd]

Not if they were all driverless cars. By the time any new fuel source is ready to completely take over it's likely that cars will be driverless. This will not only result in a road having the potential for more capacity but also higher speeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not just cars that would need taking off the road though, quite a few motorways are often full of trucks.

Driverless cars would have to conform to such high engineering and maintenance standards that it is unlikely they could ever be owned and maintained as a car today is.
Probably far more like those experienced by aviation than conventional ground transport.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I want to state that there's problems with a HS line from London to Glasgow. Trains always stop at Preston on the WCML and York on the ECML and due to a lack (it would be pointless) of through tracks, I'm presuming that 6 and 7 at PRE and whatever at York would need dramatic modifications.
I would also support the idea of Lancaster-Newcastle/Sunderland operated on a straight line by Northern Adelantes and one of the Callie sleepers. (there's two so we're fine). This could be operated by HS2 or a future HS3.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I want to state that there's problems with a HS line from London to Glasgow. Trains always stop at Preston on the WCML and York on the ECML and due to a lack (it would be pointless) of through tracks, I'm presuming that 6 and 7 at PRE and whatever at York would need dramatic modifications.
I would also support the idea of Lancaster-Newcastle/Sunderland operated on a straight line by Northern Adelantes and one of the Callie sleepers. (there's two so we're fine). This could be operated by HS2 or a future HS3.

Trains can run through any line at Preston non-stop, 3 or 4 would be fastest though. They don't have to call when they pass through a platform. Further, the 0540 EDB-KGX Monday-Friday runs non-stop through York.

You want to use Adelantes on a High Speed line between two places with no real need for a direct service, as well as building it through some of the harshest landscapes in Britain...?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Trains can run through any line at Preston non-stop, 3 or 4 would be fastest though. They don't have to call when they pass through a platform. Further, the 0540 EDB-KGX Monday-Friday runs non-stop through York.

You want to use Adelantes on a High Speed line between two places with no real need for a direct service, as well as building it through some of the harshest landscapes in Britain...?

They can't operate at decent speeds, so they stop. (At least, except one of the callies)
If they can get through the landscape, I'm in. 395s would be the best, maybe 390s.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They can't operate at decent speeds, so they stop. (At least, except one of the callies)
If they can get through the landscape, I'm in. 395s would be the best, maybe 390s.

Preston isn't that slow, 30mph~ IIRC both ways, though I suspect it may be more. Further, Preston is also used to change crew on all VWC services (or at least those coming from / going further north than Lancaster), hence all trains call.

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.372559,-1.625977&spn=1.134337,2.90863&t=h&z=9 - I suspect it would be possible to build a line through that, though I wouldn't expect it to be very High Speed or cost less than several hundreds of millions of pounds.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Preston isn't that slow, 30mph~ IIRC both ways, though I suspect it may be more. Further, Preston is also used to change crew on all VWC services (or at least those coming from / going further north than Lancaster), hence all trains call.

It was 10 last time I checked. It's probably 30 now though, considering the safety of the new and improved station.

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.372559,-1.625977&spn=1.134337,2.90863&t=h&z=9 - I suspect it would be possible to build a line through that, though I wouldn't expect it to be very High Speed or cost less than several hundreds of millions of pounds.

True, trains can just use the Hexham line, sleepers can and the Cumbrian Coastliner can be extended to Sunderland, provided it doesn't clash with anything else.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It was 10 last time I checked. It's probably 30 now though, considering the safety of the new and improved station.

Care to expand on that? When was the last time Preston stations was 'new' and 'improved'?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

After the derailment in the 18-19 hundreds, I think. I just don't see a need for Preston being a through, infact Preston needs a second station tbh (Cadley Parkway, Maudlands, Riversway, Lea Road, or Barton Grange Parkway spring to mind)

 

[Eagle]

The speed at Preston is 35 mph through all six platforms. The goods loops have varying speeds between 5 and 30 mph.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

The speed at Preston is 35 mph through all six platforms. The goods loops have varying speeds between 5 and 30 mph.

Thanks. So it is possible to operate non-stop but they don't.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thanks. So it is possible to operate non-stop but they don't.

It is possible to operate through any non-terminal station non-stop, but as I have said, the majority of VWC services change crew here, and it is a regional hub for local trains.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

...and to an extent national hub. (Leeds, York, Scotland, Wolves, Birmingham, Coventry, London, Milton Keynes)

 

[HSTEd]

Deleted, nvm.

Misunderstood something.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I wasn't trying to beat the ECML, I was trying to merge two lines together.

 

[RYS]

If HS2 is designed to relieve capacity issues on the lower WCML, then is it likely that one of the next parts of the network will be a line to relieve capacity on the lower ECML?

How about London - Stansted - Cambridge - Peterborough?

This would solve overcrowding on Cambridge and Peterborough services and relieve the Welwyn bottleneck. Obviously services could then continue north on the ECML after PBO. I can see this line being much much cheaper to build than HS2 (flatter terrain, no expensive Y junctions). The only thing I'm not sure about, is that if all journeys to the North East and Scotland will be going via Leeds on HS2, will the ECML then already be under-utilised?

 

[WatcherZero]

Your confusing outer suburban services with intercity services there.

 

[RYS]

Your confusing outer suburban services with intercity services there.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean there just aren't enough people to be moved over a great enough distance? My proposal would only have the 4 stations listed - no outer suburban service. The main point of the line would be to provide extra intercity capacity to the ECML destinations north of Peterborough, but with the added benefit of giving a proper intercity service to Cambridge and Peterborough (yes they are treated as outer suburban at the moment). The lower ECML then has paths freed up for more suburban and outer suburban services. As I said, the uncertainty I have is whether extra capacity to the North East will be needed given that HS2 is going there too.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean there just aren't enough people to be moved over a great enough distance? My proposal would only have the 4 stations listed - no outer suburban service. The main point of the line would be to provide extra intercity capacity to the ECML destinations north of Peterborough, but with the added benefit of giving a proper intercity service to Cambridge and Peterborough (yes they are treated as outer suburban at the moment). The lower ECML then has paths freed up for more suburban and outer suburban services. As I said, the uncertainty I have is whether extra capacity to the North East will be needed given that HS2 is going there too.

Probably pointless, think about how many places 12-18 400m trains per hour can serve, especially as the captive ones could, and really ought to be, double decker.

Especially if we end up with a High speed route to Scotland via Newcastle as we would in any reasonable world.

 

[LE Greys]

If HS2 is designed to relieve capacity issues on the lower WCML, then is it likely that one of the next parts of the network will be a line to relieve capacity on the lower ECML?

How about London - Stansted - Cambridge - Peterborough?

This would solve overcrowding on Cambridge and Peterborough services and relieve the Welwyn bottleneck. Obviously services could then continue north on the ECML after PBO. I can see this line being much much cheaper to build than HS2 (flatter terrain, no expensive Y junctions). The only thing I'm not sure about, is that if all journeys to the North East and Scotland will be going via Leeds on HS2, will the ECML then already be under-utilised?

From my point of view, yes please (although Cambridge might have to be missed out, since three stations seems a bit OTT). This gives East Anglia and Hertfordshire a decent link to Scotland and the North East without the hassle of having to go into London. The line could connect to Stratford and run direct to the Channel Tunnel, saving a lot of time by effectively bypassing London. Basically, the same function that Ashford and Ebbsfleet are supposed to perform for Kent, although there would be better connections. I'm also a bit sick of seeing the West Coast get all the investment, but that's beside the point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably pointless, think about how many places 12-18 400m trains per hour can serve, especially as the captive ones could, and really ought to be, double decker.

Especially if we end up with a High speed route to Scotland via Newcastle as we would in any reasonable world.

TBH, I very much doubt we'll see more than 12, with 10 likely (I originally reckoned on 6). A 5-minute interval service is probably as much as the slower sections can cope with. Old Oak-Euston will be the bottleneck on the new line, but the real problems will be further north. How many more trains can you get accross the KEVII Bridge at Newcastle? How many more can get through Crewe? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Unless you start rebuilding station approaches everywhere, then it's more a matter of diverting existing services via HS2 than increasing the frequency. I guess that would mean the end of Aberdeen trains stopping at Stevenage (assuming the SNP haven't cut them off at Edinburgh :roll: ).

 

[jon0844]

Driverless cars would have to conform to such high engineering and maintenance standards that it is unlikely they could ever be owned and maintained as a car today is.
Probably far more like those experienced by aviation than conventional ground transport.

Tip; Don't get involved in a discussion about driverless cars.

 

[HSTEd]

TBH, I very much doubt we'll see more than 12, with 10 likely (I or[/B]iginally reckoned on 6). A 5-minute interval service is probably as much as the slower sections can cope with. Old Oak-Euston will be the bottleneck on the new line, but the real problems will be further north. How many more trains can you get accross the KEVII Bridge at Newcastle? How many more can get through Crewe? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Unless you start rebuilding station approaches everywhere, then it's more a matter of diverting existing services via HS2 than increasing the frequency. I guess that would mean the end of Aberdeen trains stopping at Stevenage (assuming the SNP haven't cut them off at Edinburgh :roll: ).

Well we would have a new line with a new station in Newcastle

The proposal for using ERTMS L2 suggested that the bottleneck would likely be the Birmingham Triangle junction.

This line will never be full without intermediate stations but oh well, we must build a line exactly like the french one.

 

[tbtc]

Probably pointless, think about how many places 12-18 400m trains per hour can serve, especially as the captive ones could, and really ought to be, double decker.

Especially if we end up with a High speed route to Scotland via Newcastle as we would in any reasonable world.

Double Decker trains sound good but you'd then restrict High Speed trains to only running on High Speed lines - which would complicate things.