High Speed 2 - do we really need it?

[LE Greys]

Sorry, I meant say on a trip from Glasgow to London for example, travelling 100mph ish (no tilt) on the WCML and then 225mph (current planned alignment) on HS2. Would that diminish the 20 minute time saving considerably enough to warrant tilt for the conventional network?

As I understand it, the WCML section will have to be 110 mph if the train does not have TASS, which would add half an hour to the times (the old Caledonian and Grand Junction sections are very twisty). It would probably be a good idea to fit TASS, thus sticking to the EPS limits all the way.

 

[YesToHS2]

Ah, interesting. Just read that article a bit more thoroughly. My point was completely different but even more crucial I think. As you say, a curved track will be longer, which doesn't make sense. I think the hybrid units will have to have TASS then if the 20 minute time saving is to be guaranteed for services north of Birmingham. I may have to seek clarification on this from some people I have been in regular correspondence with.

 

[grey_man]

I am not sure what your adgenda is Grey Man but from your first 3 posts, you seem hell bent on discrediting Yes2HS2 at all costs. Also, I see no shouting down from him, that is mainly coming from you. Whether he quotes local media references or other, at least references are being quoted rather than the emotive drivel that comes out of the anti HS2 camps.

Now if you yourself wanted to make suggestions instead of attacking all of the time, then your posts would hold more credibility. Until then, I will class you as one of those lobbyists that Metroland suggests.

Well, you'd be wrong. I'm a (very) small business owner who spends £10,000 a year on train fares to London for a very poor service who wants to know what the impact of this will be on businesses like mine. I have been listening to the same drivel from the rail industry for 15 years. I don't want to see out my days listening to more.

My suggestion would for somebody to answer questions with facts rather than what I see as wishful thinking. We can all guess based on the information available and there may be misinformation coming from all sides but then again not all sides are arguing for £17-30 billion to be spent on a service that I still can't see a cast iron case for. I'm not alone in that.

My attention with regards to Chris was attracted by his attacks on MPs who were - as they are meant to - representing the views of their constituents. As I've learned more about this, the more confused I am about what this project will mean. I certainly don't appreciate Chris peddling his little economies with the truth about what my company does. I at least have a clear interest in what this project will mean.

The country needs investment in its rail infrastructure. I'm not sure this is it - yet.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well, you'd be wrong. I'm a (very) small business owner who spends £10,000 a year on train fares to London for a very poor service who wants to know what the impact of this will be on businesses like mine. I have been listening to the same drivel from the rail industry for 15 years. I don't want to see out my days listening to more.

You're a Warrington man, aren't you?
You can now get to London sub-2 hours from Warrington hourly, this is the fastest that trains have ever been between the Lancashire* town and the Capital, and the trains on them, whilst not technically perfect, seem to be enjoyed by the bog-standard passenger.

Don't like HS2? Stick to the WCML then!

* - Warrington is north of the River Mersey, so it’s technically in Lancashire (well, pre ’74!)

 

[tbtc]

I'm a (very) small business owner who spends £10,000 a year on train fares to London for a very poor service

Okay, time to be realistic here.

You live in/near Warrington? So you have a (roughly) hourly train direct to London with modern trains (stopping only once or twice on many journeys)...

...what about this is "poor" and what would you want improved? Is it the times? The frequency? The 390s?

Rather than the black/white HS2 argument, lets look at your dissatisfaction with the Warrington - London service

(apologies if its not Warrington - I think that's where you mentioned)

 

[grey_man]

It is too expensive (including the gradual erosion of the availabilty of cheaper tickets) and there is a lack of capacity. And yes I know the two are linked. I feel that the trains are faster and more punctual than they were, but I am routinely paying £100+ each for myself and colleagues, more often than not one leg of the journey is on trains where we are standing. Sometimes for business reasons it is not possible to book in advance and it costs £245 to travel. Sometimes it is possible to get good deals but often circumstances during the day mean I end up buying extra tickets anyway for the return journey.
Most often we are unable to be specific about trains times because we are in meetings so cannot book seats. Now we are awaiting the latest waves of unjustified fare increases without any commitment to increasing capacity. I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
It has come to the point where we are increasingly driving to Luton / Harpenden / Radlett to take the Thameslink in to Central London. I don't have four employees but the idea that if we did it might be cheaper to BUY a car and torch it when we're done rather than travel by train shows you how far divorced from reality train travel has become. The staff who work on the WCML are usually great but I get the feeling they feel they are getting the **** end of the stick as much as passengers.
For my own amusement when I have seen Virgin advertising fares for £10 or whatever, I've phoned and asked for one. Try it yourself. I've been listening to jam tomorrow promises for the 15 years I've been using the service. Some aspects of the service are better, but improvements are almost always outweighed by disadvantages. For example, it used to be possible to travel off peak to arrive after nine. Now it's lunchtime.
My fear is that this new project will offer just more of the same. Faster trains, insufficient capacity, ridiculous fares.
Nothing I have heard has convinced me otherwise. There are serious cultural, commercial and structural failings in the current rail service that this service does nothing to address. I'm all for investing in infrastructure, but we need to get those things right first IMO. What I have been wound up by in this case is being told by somebody who doesn't even use the service that I should just keep forking out indefinitely for all of this on the vague basis that the new service - which will come out of my taxes - might offer more seats (will they be enough?) and be quicker but I'll have to wait at least 15 years for it. It's not a strong enough argument. When I've asked questions about this, I've been accused of all sorts of stuff, including having a videoconferencing company, which is remarkable. I run a small PR firm that works primarily with office furniture and facilities management companies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To make the point. I've just been on trainline to see what would happen if I wanted to go to London in a week's time for a meeting.

If I wanted to travel offf peak to keep costs down, I would need to arrive at lunchtime, so couldn't do meetings in the morning and would then need to leave Euston at 19.30 (a time that has also slipped back significantly and unannounced), which probably means kicking my heels for a couple of hours. This train would almost certainly be standing room only and I'd get home by about ten o'clock. Or I could pay between £171 and £245 to have a day in London and arrive home at a reasonable hour, although not necessarily sitting down. Travelling on one of the many First Class carriages would cost me up to £373, £20 more than Virgin would charge to fly me to New York.
Incidentally, First Class Travel used to involve a pretty good level of service. That has also been eroded. Now traveling First Class is about getting a seat.

 

[Greenback]

You have touched upon many of the problems that ar einherent in the railway system across the UK, and which are the result of the way the system operates. There is no real incentive for TOC's to think long term; Virgin (or any of the others) are primarily interested in their bottom line and this means extracting as much revenue as they think they can. As a result, there is little opportunity to invest in additional capacity and see a financial return within the short franchises.

I would be happier about HS2 going ahead if there was a proper reform of the rail industry. It remains to be seen whether the government will be able to deliver the reform that is so depserately needed.

 

[grey_man]

Agree absolutely Greenback. Without reform of the railways, HS2 is just expensive 'more of the same'.

I don't doubt the supporters are sincere, I just wish there was more energy devoted to campaigning for changes to the current structure of the industry before we start adding more bits to it.

 

[Greenback]

I can see the opportunities that HS2 COULD bring, but I fear, like yourself, that the end result will be more of the same that we have now.

I would like to see more concrete guarantees about levels of services and fares.

 

[grey_man]

I now see from the discussion above that HS2 may not even be quicker for services north of Birmingham unless we install TASS. I'm no expert but wasn't this system already rejected in the past because it was too expensive? So am I to take it that it won't offer significant time savings, may even be slower, may increase capacity by an unspecified amount and won't do anything to reduce fares, possibly the opposite?

The more I hear about HS2, the less I see the case for it.

 

[sprinterguy]

I now see from the discussion above that HS2 may not even be quicker for services north of Birmingham unless we install TASS. I'm no expert but wasn't this system already rejected in the past because it was too expensive? So am I to take it that it won't offer significant time savings, may even be slower, may increase capacity by an unspecified amount and won't do anything to reduce fares, possibly the opposite?

The more I hear about HS2, the less I see the case for it.

TASS is already in place on the West Coast main line for the Pendolinos and Voyagers. It would however require tilt systems and receiver equipment to be fitted to the classic compatible HS2 trains, which would probably up the cost per train: Not that a figure for the cost of trains for HS2 has even been decided on yet (as far as I’m aware) before even a final route between Birmingham and London has been decided.

 

[Geezertronic]

Problem is that if the peak trains are full as Grey Man suggests (and I can vouch for the peak trains being full on the EBW route), then what incentive is there to reduce prices when the train can be filled?

The Pendolino lengthening may help depending on whether the 11 car 390s will be used on your route (just lengthen all 52 sets for crying out loud!), so would declassifying Coach G on a regular basis. Shame that the new 11 car 390 will be kicking its virtual heels in Dollands Moor

 

[grey_man]

Problem is that if the peak trains are full as Grey Man suggests (and I can vouch for the peak trains being full on the EBW route), then what incentive is there to reduce prices when the train can be filled?

That is where the Government needs to come in because the TOCS are just behaving as companies do without pressure of competition and legislation. As well as my (standard) complaints above, we've already got the ridiculous spectacle of people being herded at Euston around the times of off-peak train times. We need extra capacity now (and a new approach generally) and the TOCS clearly need to be helped and obliged to provide it.

 

[imagination]

Wonder why it's only Virgin who put in the excessive amount of first class... You would think that if it made sense for them it would make sense for FGW and EC too. Virgin also has a morning peak that ends several hours later than the FGW one does...

That's one thing that HS2 would do though - provide some sense of competition - if it was "peak" on the west coast and "offpeak" on HS2 I can't see many people using the West Coast services.

 

[sprinterguy]

That is where the Government needs to come in because the TOCS are just behaving as companies do without pressure of competition and legislation. As well as my (standard) complaints above, we've already got the ridiculous spectacle of people being herded at Euston around the times of off-peak train times. We need extra capacity now (and a new approach generally) and the TOCS clearly need to be helped and obliged to provide it.

You can't just keep lengthening trains indefinitely though, until Intercity trains are using SDO at every major station and blocking up station approaches with carriages trailing off the platform ends: I would think that eleven carriages is getting near to the maximum length you can realistically extend a Pendolino to in order for the major stations along the route to cope with the train length (I reckon about 14 carriages would be an ultimate maximum). And then what? When the increased seating capacity also becomes saturated and eleven carriage trains are running full and standing, what use is there offering cheap tickets for these trains if you can't physically board them?

I agree that pricing tickets so high that people choose not to travel on certain services and leave spare capacity on these trains is madness, but below that threshold it’s unsurprising that TOCs charge the maximum they possibly can when they have a captive market to fill every train to capacity. Morally wrong yes, but not surprising.

Which leads back to the original argument, we need a new line out of London to cater for the demand for travel as the existing services are already saturated, and while we're at it we might as well make it a high speed route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wonder why it's only Virgin who put in the excessive amount of first class... You would think that if it made sense for them it would make sense for FGW and EC too. Virgin also has a morning peak that ends several hours later than the FGW one does...

Because the Pendolinos were specified with Branson's dream of three class trains, two of which weren't standard, whereas the FGW and East Coast train fleets are designed on more practical BR ideals that would require expensive carriage conversions to alter: And if it ain't broke, why fix it?

That's one thing that HS2 would do though - provide some sense of competition - if it was "peak" on the west coast and "offpeak" on HS2 I can't see many people using the West Coast services.

That'd be a clever idea

 

[Striker]

I think HS2 is a great idea. However, I find it hard to get excited about it because of the high fares which will no doubt be charged. I live in Holland but travel in the UK frequently, and it never ceases to amaze me the price and large, complicated restrictions on UK tickets.

I've just looked at price of a ticket from Manchester Piccadilly tomorrow morning to London. £131 in standard class. The same distrance journey, also in the morning, on the high speed TGV from Brussels to Paris? £61. That's more than double for a slower service!

No doubt there will be special offers for off-peak and advance tickets on HS2, but the high cost of walk-up fares will put people off buying them when arriving via aircraft for example, which is why a station at Heathrow is kind of not needed at all. Would the train company accept the late arrival of a flight as sufficient excuse for missing the train? I doubt it.

 

[Geezertronic]

That is where the Government needs to come in because the TOCS are just behaving as companies do without pressure of competition and legislation. As well as my (standard) complaints above, we've already got the ridiculous spectacle of people being herded at Euston around the times of off-peak train times. We need extra capacity now (and a new approach generally) and the TOCS clearly need to be helped and obliged to provide it.

I'm not too sure what you mean by herding? The concourse has definitely been outgrown by the number of passengers and the links to the underground definitely need to be upsized (along with the other cosmetic complaints). The system of announcing a platform when the train is ready does lead to many people heading for the platform at once but the system works as it allows the train crew to prepare the train without tripping over boarding passengers.

 

[YesToHS2]

As I understand it, the WCML section will have to be 110 mph if the train does not have TASS, which would add half an hour to the times (the old Caledonian and Grand Junction sections are very twisty). It would probably be a good idea to fit TASS, thus sticking to the EPS limits all the way.

I have an answer with regards to timing north of Birmingham. I e-mailed some contracts I have, I also e-mailed some one at HS2 ltd but it will be a few days until I get a response from them.

(This from an editor at railnews)
"Tilt (TASS) is not proposed at present on classic compatible stock northwards on the WCML — But the time difference would be minimal to nil . . . because (a) very little of the WCML north of Crew permits running now above 110mph, so tilt has little benefit (virtually all of the modernisation work was done south of Crewe) and (b) the new trains are likely to be much more powerful and have even greater acceleration than today's Pendolinos.

- - -

"none of the signalling north of Norton Bridge (between Stafford and Crewe) has been renewed at all."

It has also been suggested that the WCML north of Birmingham will actually be improved under HS2 with new signalling ect. Not only will it allow for none TASS trains to run as fast as possible but it should lead to improvements to current Pendolino services. HS2Ltd and network will undoubtedly have to discuss how they can make sure that HS2 delivers the time savings promised for all services to be offered. HS2 Ltd are said to be confident that there is a cost effective solution to the problems faced by CC trains operating North of Birmingham.

Mark, without being drawn into any further arguments. I understand your frustrations over the current services provided I have never said I don't but I believe that HS2 is essential to improve services in the future. I do agree though that there needs to be a complete overhaul of the current franchising system. I'm not sure what your opinions of Virgin are but they have offered on several occasions to finance further train lengthening programs themselves if only the government would allow them to operate the route for longer. Units are however being lengthened to ease overcrowding in the short to medium term.

It is highly unfortunate that HS2 will take 15 years to develop and build but a lot of this has to do with planning and red tape. With protesters disputing every mile of the route it is easy to see why it will take so long, With every change comes months more work redesigning and recalculating the the new alignment.

The YesTo campaign was originally a reactionary campaign set up to dispute claims made by critics, (if we are all working of the same documents then they should least quote the correct figures), but now the campaign has moved on and is actually joining the debate, sourcing information and helping to insure that HS2 delivers what has been set out. I certainly wouldn't be able to give full backing to a project that doesn't deliver time benefits and services improvements to towns and cities north of Birmingham from day one. A lot goes on in the background, the YesTo campaign is now being taken seriously so it is important that I raise issues that people have to influential individuals who are also campaigning for HS2 to go ahead.

 

[LE Greys]

I have an answer with regards to timing north of Birmingham. I e-mailed some contracts I have, I also e-mailed some one at HS2 ltd but it will be a few days until I get a response from them.

(This from an editor at railnews)
"Tilt (TASS) is not proposed at present on classic compatible stock northwards on the WCML — But the time difference would be minimal to nil . . . because (a) very little of the WCML north of Crew permits running now above 110mph, so tilt has little benefit (virtually all of the modernisation work was done south of Crewe) and (b) the new trains are likely to be much more powerful and have even greater acceleration than today's Pendolinos.

- - -

"none of the signalling north of Norton Bridge (between Stafford and Crewe) has been renewed at all."

It has also been suggested that the WCML north of Birmingham will actually be improved under HS2 with new signalling ect. Not only will it allow for none TASS trains to run as fast as possible but it should lead to improvements to current Pendolino services. HS2Ltd and network will undoubtedly have to discuss how they can make sure that HS2 delivers the time savings promised for all services to be offered. HS2 Ltd are said to be confident that there is a cost effective solution to the problems faced by CC trains operating North of Birmingham.

That is curious, especially considering the various runs I've done over that section, including the record in 2006. Speeds on most sections between Carstairs and Lockerbie often go over 110, I have recorded 116 at Tebay and the record run's maximum speed was 129 at Winsford. All were north of Crewe. The curves around Beattock and the Lune Gorge are all tilt-controlled (Kirkpatrick on the record produced the full eight degrees, which felt like 45 at least).

I have also done the route in diverted HSTs, and did not record one section faster than 110 mph, despite the work. All standard speed limits are 110 or lower, with EPS being 125. The standard limit might rise to 125 for short sections, but that seems unlikely at present.

 

[grey_man]

YestoHS2

Fair enough Chris. I'm glad we are at last coming to some sort of agreement.

My opinion of Virgin is they should have their heads banged against those of the Government and they should improve capacity without concessions. If the Government could sort themselves out for long enough, they should not only allow Virgin to expand capacity but make it a prerequisite of them extending their franchise. Maybe now MPs are using standard class (supposedly), we might see somebody who cares about this. When I asked my local MP, I just got a 'statement' supporting the Government in strategy - such as it is.

With regard to 'herding', Virgin has started using pens to make sure the stampede from the Euston concourse that we all know and love doesn't endanger anybody. I never take part in it anyway.

To help them deal with this, they're suggesting that only people with reserved seats will be able to board specific trains. A proposal made by somebody who has never been in a business meeting, obviously.

My opinion having seen this discssion and read some more about HS2 is that it is pointless without an overhaul of the current rail system in the UK. Not that anybody in power cares what I and thousands of people like me think.

 

[Geezertronic]

With regard to 'herding', Virgin has started using pens to make sure the stampede from the Euston concourse that we all know and love doesn't endanger anybody. I never take part in it anyway.

I must be honest and say I've never noticed that. Like I did yesterday, I usually wait on the concourse and look at the big screens to see when the platform for my train is announced (as the board usually updates a few seconds before the announcement). Not noticed any temporary barriers or anything of the like either?

 

[grey_man]

I must be honest and say I've never noticed that. Like I did yesterday, I usually wait on the concourse and look at the big screens to see when the platform for my train is announced (as the board usually updates a few seconds before the announcement). Not noticed any temporary barriers or anything of the like either?

I saw them used for the first time a few weeks ago for a Manchester train (which I wasn't travelling on). It was reported in the news.

From what I understand they may be using them more and more. I know it isn't directly Virgin's fault so much as the idiots who do it, but the service to the NW needs to be addressed immediately. There is something seriously wrong with it and just putting the fares up to even more ridiculous levels is just going to increase overcrowding on specific trains. I fear that something disastrous will have to happen before anybody takes this seriously

 

[Geezertronic]

Whilst I accept your sentiments, there are other services/TOCs which are more overcrowded than VT.

Take XC as an example, around Brum you'll be lucky to get on a 220/221 let alone get a seat half the time. Bombardier's suggestion of adding a Pantograph coach to extend the sets (one of the reasons anyway) seems to have gone quiet, I'd certainly like to know what happened to that one.

 

[grey_man]

I don't doubt it. Thameslink can be an absolute treat as well.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't doubt it. Thameslink can be an absolute treat as well.

And the Tube which is vastly worse than any heavy rail overcrowding issues

 

[gordonthemoron]

the worst overcrowded long distance trains I've been on are DB ICEs, especially Friday & Sunday evening. Can have a load factor of up to 200% on some sections

 

[tbtc]

And the Tube which is vastly worse than any heavy rail overcrowding issues

The difference (in my eyes) is that overcrowding on a Voyager/ Pacer (etc) is pretty easy to rectify with a longer train - there's no reason for Voyagers to still be so short (even if you agree with them being introduced as four/five coach, it's been almost a decade)...

...whereas the London Underground is running at pretty much maximum capacity -both in terms of train frequencies and train lengths.

The other difference is that a lot of Underground journeys are ten/twenty minutes. Standing on a journey of that length is different to doing something like Leeds - Birmingham on a Voyager.

I know what you're getting at (this isn't intended as a dig), but how come nine-car 390s are getting extended whilst four-car 220/221s aren't?

 

[Geezertronic]

I know what you're getting at (this isn't intended as a dig), but how come nine-car 390s are getting extended whilst four-car 220/221s aren't?

I mentioned it in another thread, but the Bombardier idea of adding a Pantograph coach seems to have gone quiet, it would be nice to know what happened to that proposal. They could even use the two 221 cars VT now have spare for testing purposes?

 

[tbtc]

I mentioned it in another thread, but the Bombardier idea of adding a Pantograph coach seems to have gone quiet, it would be nice to know what happened to that proposal. They could even use the two 221 cars VT now have spare for testing purposes?

I agree - the Virgin plan to extend their Voyagers to five car surely gives scope to test the "redundant" coaches with a pantograph.

Whilst 390s do get busy, I don't think they get anything like as "day long" busy as Voyagers, yet Voyager extension seems to be on the back-burner.

Would be nice to see the Government/ Virgin/ DB/ Arriva sitting down and sorting something out, but I can't see it in the near term.

 

[Zoe]

They are much wider, the noise never stops, day and night, and they produce massive amounts of exhaust fumes and C02. Yet the M40 got built through the Chilterns.

The M40 would certainly not have been built in the current political climate. If a railway was utilised 24/7 though the noise would also never stop. It should also be noted that not having the motorways and forcing all traffic through the local villagges would produce more CO2 emissions due to the stop start nature of the journeys.