High Speed 2 - do we really need it?

[Geezertronic]

If you can't answer, it just starts to look like a £17 billion train service between London and Birmingham for 2026 not what you are campaigning for.

That is a typical NIMBY argument and a naive argument at that. Apparently Rome wasn't built in a day so you cannot expect a complete High Speed line from London to Scotland to be designed and built in one go.

London to Birmingham is the first stage, Birmingham to Manchester/Leeds is apparently the second stage. I agree with someone else who posted that Scotland should start their stages and work down while the English stages work up. As the stages apparently have planned connections with existing lines allowing HS2 services to resume on existing lines, the "London to Birmingham" argument loses all credibility.

 

[tbtc]

That is a typical NIMBY argument and a naive argument at that. Apparently Rome wasn't built in a day so you cannot expect a complete High Speed line from London to Scotland to be designed and built in one go.

London to Birmingham is the first stage, Birmingham to Manchester/Leeds is apparently the second stage. I agree with someone else who posted that Scotland should start their stages and work down while the English stages work up. As the stages apparently have planned connections with existing lines allowing HS2 services to resume on existing lines, the "London to Birmingham" argument loses all credibility.

True.

Nobody described the M1 as "a London to Luton motorway" (or whatever)

 

[43021HST]

If the critics can use figures to scare the public it only fair that those in support should be able to state figures from the same batch of documents. £34 was quoted as far back as 2008 as being the total cost for a London to Scotland HSR. Since the original Network rail report not much more has been done on that route. The latest figure put the London, Manchester and Leeds Y shape core at around £30bn. The section up for debate though is planned the London to Birmingham section with classic compatible services north, which has been projected to cost £17bn. Whether this is final cost is no the issue, my problem is that the critics or trying to make their case sound stronger by quoting old figures that are not related to the current set of plans.

Personally mate I dont believe a thing you say, your Avatar and Name seem to suggest to me that you are just some HS2 'propaganda' company trying to whip up some positive guff about the scheme.

 

[YesToHS2]

@imagination
You've opened up a whole can of worms by trying to respond to grey man. This is the second time he has followed me to a web site to ask the same questions over again. I have responded to his points many times, so to say I am not answering questions is ludicrous. I have tried on many occasions to answer his questions using the data available but instead he choose to begin to attack me personally.

I have disabled the direct commenting interface because I am currently very busy so do not have time to answer all comments directly. People can however e-mail the YesTo campaign and I will do my best to answer their questions. The so called "stop HS2" blog does not even publish comments submitted instead he or she moderates them and then decides what to publish, none of my valid comments have yet been published, also none of the anti HS2 web sites are even open to comments of any sort.

I do not mind a debate about HS2 such as the many valid comments that are on this forum but when some of the "facts" are so blatantly misleading or emotive it I feel it is only right that they are corrected.

Just 2 examples

£34bn. For what? They don't say, they just say "HS2", in fact £34bn was a cost given for a pre HS2 idea put forward by network rail for a full London Scotland high speed line. Page 7 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/About us/New Lines Programme/5886_NewLineStudy_synopsis.pdf

100m wide Concrete bomb! what is a concrete bomb? No where does it say HS2 will be 100 meters wide. 22m wide with an exclusion zone of some sort, which anyone who knows anything about rail will tell you is sensible. The exclusion zone will be no wider than 70m, but the idea that it will be 70m of concrete is completely ridiculous, track beds are made using stone ballast with concrete sleepers to begin with and I very much doubt the ballast will stretch much beyond the track width. page 14 http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/77048

@squaddie
I'm sorry that the YesTo campaign does not live up your expectations but I do not see anyone else making an effort to actively support HS2, perhaps before you attack the campaign on the grounds of grammar you might start your own campaign. I am not a professional, I do not work for the government or rail industry so I do not see why I should be expected to put together a professional campaign with no money whilst in full employment. It is certainly being taken seriously amongst some high profile names within the rail industry so I am not overly concerned that I am doing the HS2 cause any harm. Perhaps rather than attacking the content you could add to the YesTo campaign with your own submissions.

The whole point of debate is that one side puts forward argument and then the other side puts forward their argument. I am not simply writing something straight out of my own imagination, I have spent many hours reading the documents which, yes are plans and projections, but I am only using the same documents that the critics are using. Where as I choose to publish what is actually written the critics for the most part seem to embellishing data or using the wrong data to make their arguments seem stronger.

This quote might be off interest. The chair of the transport select committee MP Louise Ellman told Mr Rukin (one of the most high profile anti HS2 campaigners) “You have made major statements with very little to back them up,”.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is a typical NIMBY argument and a naive argument at that. Apparently Rome wasn't built in a day so you cannot expect a complete High Speed line from London to Scotland to be designed and built in one go.

He's not a "nimby", he in fact lives in Warrington. But for some reason has taken a dislike to myself and the campaign.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally mate I dont believe a thing you say, your Avatar and Name seem to suggest to me that you are just some HS2 'propaganda' company trying to whip up some positive guff about the scheme.

You do not have to believe anything written by myself for the YesTo campaign that is your prerogative. I would repeat though that all articles are bases around current plans. In a couple of weeks time any new article will be based around new data and plans. But for now both supporters and protesters are using the same plans and projections, how the data is used is open to interpretation.

I should be flattered that you think the graphics are of a good enough quality to be produced by or for a company. Perhaps one of my own greatest downfalls is that I am better at creative design than I am at writing. I am no graphic designer though, a mediocre amateur at best.

 

[Geezertronic]

Personally mate I dont believe a thing you say, your Avatar and Name seem to suggest to me that you are just some HS2 'propaganda' company trying to whip up some positive guff about the scheme.

You don't have to believe a word he says, the proof is in the valid sourced references he quotes which cannot be argued with. And with all the negative No/Stop HS2 campaigns about some of which are providing not much more than emotive nonsense, a Yes campaign providing decent sourced information is of valid use to anyone wishing to make an informed decision

 

[grey_man]

Actually Chris, I've never attacked you personally. What I have done is point out that when you routinely pop up on local media websites spreading misinformation about this service - as you do - that you should be challenged on it.

And you still haven't answered the questions. I don't expect you to, because you don't know the answers. I'm not a NIMBY. I'm someone who uses the trains regularly, spends an unjustified fortune on them and has been listening to promises about my particular service on the WCML for 15 years and who began to question what you were saying after your little chew on people who'd questioned what you said about the service to Warrington. Now I have another 15 years to wait for something that is almost certainly not going to deliver what is promised at huge expense and with no sign whatsoever that fares will ever return to a reasonable level.

You, on the other hand, think you can make up rail networks, report them as fact. And you routinely attack local people and MPs who question the programme on various legitimate grounds.

As I've said before, there may be an economic case for HS2, but you aren't making it. And attacking local people who have doubts about a service that you don't even claim to use (as a gardener in the Wirral - really?), is bizarre.

 

[Metroland]

And with all the negative No/Stop HS2 campaigns about some of which are providing not much more than emotive nonsense, a Yes campaign providing decent sourced information is of valid use to anyone wishing to make an informed decision

The "no" websites are almost all not worth reading, they are mainily a bunch of NIMBYS. Most of the arguments are entirely false, and while they pretend to understand issues like capacity and economic appraisals, they fall well short. They mock time savings without underestanding why they are important. No doubt the some of the same sort of people would have protested against the railways in the 1840s and 1850s, and had us rely on canals.

For example, I even saw a suggestion that we should buying a fleet of coaches instead. Like all these suggestions they don't offer real world solution. They are the sort of arguments that look good on paper, but if applied to the real world would not actually work or produce external benefits. People that understand a certain sort of constructed logic, but not the business realities.

Another suggestion was to do away with first class travel. This "stop gap solution", would actually lead to less passengers travelling as cheaper advanced standard fares could not be cross subsidised with first class tickets.

More false logic is: Brtain is to small, we need more roads instead, money would be spent elsewhere if it wasn't spent on HSR, commuter and freight would be worse off, just stick to 125mph it would meet CBA scores, and so on and so forth.

Personally I do not want the country becoming a museum, and business going elsewhere in the world because our infrastuctrure doesn't match up.

 

[YesToHS2]

I have explained about service patterns many times. And posted 2 links to documents containing the exact service patters that are stated in the map you keep obsessing over. The whole point of HS2 is that it connects the North to London, the classic compatible fleet will make up an large and important part of the service, more than a 3rd of services from day 1 will be made up by CC services. I was simply highlighting the proposed stopping patterns for the services, backed up with documentation.

What is bizarre is how some one so obviously busy as yourself representing a company that specialises in video conferencing amongst others can find the time to follow round a representative of a campaign to ask them the same question over and over again. I'm not sure how many times you would like me to respond to the same question. And for your information I have written about other benefits, I even wrote a paper on the subject so this map is not the be all and end all of the campaign.

 

[Geezertronic]

As I've said before, there may be an economic case for HS2, but you aren't making it. And attacking local people who have doubts about a service that you don't even claim to use (as a gardener in the Wirral - really?), is bizarre.

I hope you are also putting your point of view across on the No/Stop HS2 websites of which a lot of the information is not really information but emotive propaganda created with the intention of spreading false and misleading information around.

 

[rb311]

I hope you are also putting your point of view across on the No/Stop HS2 websites of which a lot of the information is not really information but emotive propaganda created with the intention of spreading false and misleading information around.

Well, one man''s false and misleading information is another man's facts. I am afraid what tends to happen, particularly on this site, is that the pro-lobby, whether it be for hs2 or rail vs air etc, tend to take a stalinist propogandan attitude to anyone who dares to question their so called facts.

The pro lobby would earn a lot more respect if they didn't simply dismiss anti arguments as lies, and instead engaged in respectful debate to try and change the anti position.

The arguments pro hs2, like freeing extra capacity, improving north south links and thus injecting economic growth in the north, low carbon emissions, to name a few, are as vacuous and unproven as any concrete bomb argument, Im afraid, or has someone finally been able to predict the future?

 

[43021HST]

I should be flattered that you think the graphics are of a good enough quality to be produced by or for a company. Perhaps one of my own greatest downfalls is that I am better at creative design than I am at writing. I am no graphic designer though, a mediocre amateur at best.

Thats a bad thing if your graphics are better than the content of your arguement, so in over words you advertise something you belive in but you have no grounds to justify them. By the way I'm well aware that the graphics in my signature arnt exactly top notch

 

[Geezertronic]

Well, one man''s false and misleading information is another man's facts. I am afraid what tends to happen, particularly on this site, is that the pro-lobby, whether it be for hs2 or rail vs air etc, tend to take a stalinist propogandan attitude to anyone who dares to question their so called facts.

My issue is the approach. Concrete Bomb is obviously said with the intention of winding people up, as is "Prepare Your Ark". The emotive way in which these "arguments" are presented is just nonsense

The pro lobby would earn a lot more respect if they didn't simply dismiss anti arguments as lies, and instead engaged in respectful debate to try and change the anti position.

I tried this on the Save the Chilterns Facebook group and was very respectful doing so but as soon as you try to put over a point of view that the group does not approve of (such as the London to Birmingham only view and pointing out the proposed connections to other lines), it only seemed to get me slagged off and kicked out of the group (which I cannot see in Facebook anymore unless I log out of my account). I suppose that is the reason why I now take the stance of calling them all NIMBYs (which is wrong I know...)

The arguments pro hs2, like freeing extra capacity, improving north south links and thus injecting economic growth in the north, low carbon emissions, to name a few, are as vacuous and unproven as any concrete bomb argument, Im afraid, or has someone finally been able to predict the future?

The thing about almost anything is that you have to speculate to accumulate to get anywhere. I expect businesses do this all of the time and base their figures on predictions, and I expect a few TOCs wish that they/DfT had speculated a bit differently as far as their capacity was concerned.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Personally mate I dont believe a thing you say, your Avatar and Name seem to suggest to me that you are just some HS2 'propaganda' company trying to whip up some positive guff about the scheme.

I suppose you won't believe any NoToHS2 propaganda as well? You wouldn't want to appear hypocritical would you? After all, they could be run by a NoToHS2 propaganda company trying to 'whip up some negative guff about the scheme'.

 

[trainplan1]

Good evening everyone

I do confess to just reading a lot of stuff on here but thought it'd be time to join in.
Just a quick intro, my jobs in my name, i'm one of the later starters to the rail industry (started last year), but i'm certainly someone not to be a believer of the way's of NR, but I best not dwell on that yet.

Not a huge train buff by any means but class 86 and 87's are two of my faves

Anyway, I live the other side of the hill where HS2 would currently pass in Amersham (in theory I COULD be a NIMBY) and as you'd expect all local publications are basically anti-HS2 which quite frankly in my view is sheer bias. I looked at attending one of the hearings but thankfully decided against it as a sometime contact of mine did attend and there was no support at all for anyone with a impartial or pro HS2 view...

Reading our area's local monthly magazine there does appear to be a case of "brainwashing" if you will. I quote:

"A short play warning of the dangers of the controversial route, was put on by the pupils of ****** school"

Now correct me if I'm wrong but does that imply parents or teachers are making pupils one sided to this...

(I'm not here to stir arguments by any means!)

Up until now I was very much on the fence with HS2 but now I'm definitely swaying to the yes side. I have my reservations about some of the current plans but as a whole now I would love to see it given the greenlight.

Right well I'll stop here as I've probably said far too much for my first post.

 

[tbtc]

The arguments pro hs2, like freeing extra capacity, improving north south links .....are as vacuous and unproven

I know you're just trolling for a reaction, but clearly any new railway "high speed" from London to the Midlands/ North of England will improve links and free up capacity on existing lines (since at least some existing services will run via the HS2 line).

I don't claim HS2 will narrow the north/south gap, that it'll mean Accrington and Spennymoor will gain Harvey Nicks or that we'll have people commuting from Birkenhead to Paris by it - I just stick to how it will improve railways.

Are you seriously suggesting that a brand new "high speed" section of railway will mean *less* capacity on existing lines and *fewer* links? :roll:

 

[imagination]

And you still haven't answered the questions.

He may not have done (he hasn't here and I'm not sure if he has elsewhere or not as I haven't been following this), but I did - or most of them at any rate.

Why should it matter WHO answers the questions, rather than that they get answered? The only reason I can think of is if you are trying to personally attack him, as he seems to think you are. This is backed up further by how you answered two of your own questions in the same post.

Which of course makes YOU look bad.

Of course, if I misinterpreted your questions then they have not been answered, but were this the case then you would have clarified them, which you have not done.

 

[tbtc]

Just a quick intro

Welcome to the forum

I have my reservations about some of the current plans but as a whole now I would love to see it given the greenlight.

I think a lot of people think like that. The HS2 plans aren't perfect by any means, but they would give a lot of additional capacity on the WCML, plus a bit of extra capacity on the MML/ ECML, and give the railways a "shot in the arm".

Its certainly a lot better than the alternative of doing nothing!

 

[TGV]

Up until now I was very much on the fence with HS2 but now I'm definitely swaying to the yes side. I have my reservations about some of the current plans but as a whole now I would love to see it given the greenlight.

Right well I'll stop here as I've probably said far too much for my first post.

Hi trainplan1. Welcome aboard!

As you can probably guess, I'm in favour of high speed rail as a whole, but in common with you and many others, I'm not 100% sold on the route/methods being used for HS2, but that said, I'm still supporting it as a whole.

Classic (or whatever you want to call non-high speed) rail still has the majority of the passengers to carry though so it's all got to integrate well together.

I'd still like to complement "YesToHS2" on his campaign though. I must admit that I've not read everything he's posted or on his website, but for someone to support something they think is right with that much continued effort deserves respect, no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

 

[trainplan1]

Thanks for the welcome chaps.

@TGV no why would I think your for high speed rail...

Can I also say to "YestoHS2" that it's really nice to see some campaigning from the pro high speed side. Makes a refreshing read after all the doom and gloom I see elsewhere.

 

[YesToHS2]

The people that are saying that I simply attack critics obviously haven't read any of the articles on the blog, yes it is true that I have corrected some misleading information but I have also put forward my own views using the data that is available. I have even written a fully researched paper on the subject, which can be found here.

I have also on many occasions asked for supporters to submit there own articles and papers. If people who are still on the fence have an idea that they would like to put forward, I am open to suggestions and I will except articles for submission.

I believe in HS2 in it's current form for the most but and I look forward to further details and more concrete plans. If some articles seem critical of protesters it is only because my view is that informed debate can not simply be based in emotive and often misleading arguments. I do not dismiss all opposition and am open to polite and informed debate, not personal attacks and or arguing with ill informed protesters.

 

[Geezertronic]

I believe in HS2 in it's current form for the most but and I look forward to further details and more concrete plans.

Don't you start

 

[YesToHS2]

Don't you start

Oh, now I'm in trouble. It wasn't even supposed a play on words. .

If any one does have any suggestions for direction of the YesTo campaign please let me know. Also if you get your copy of Railnews this week look out for the campaign on page 22.

 

[Metroland]

The pro lobby would earn a lot more respect if they didn't simply dismiss anti arguments as lies, and instead engaged in respectful debate to try and change the anti position.

That's never going to happen though. Most of the people that are involved with anti-HS2 sites just don't want it in their back yard and will think of any excuse to stop it. Most of the rest are lobbyists or have some ideological bent (for whatever reason) against improving the railways. Some enthusiats are against it, because they think that somehow the money is going to be spent on the existing network instead, which is entirely false.

There is a section that is sitting on the fence, and all I would say to them is read as much as you can about the project before making up your mind.

 

[grey_man]

Chris

Where on Earth do you get the idea I have a company that does videoconferencing? Is this another one of your lies aimed at discrediting anybody who doesn't agree with you?

@imagination

He hasn't answered them because he doesn't have answers. What he does is turf up on local media websites offering 'information' that may or may not be true and shout down anybody who asks questions.

I'm all for improving transport links in this country. God knows we need it. What I am concerned with is the creation of a service that doesn't address the issues we have now. I am unconvinced that this service will reduce fares, deal with capacity issues for the North and reverse the flow of business to the South East. I am a cynic, but 15 years on the WCML will do that to you.

 

[Geezertronic]

I am not sure what your adgenda is Grey Man but from your first 3 posts, you seem hell bent on discrediting Yes2HS2 at all costs. Also, I see no shouting down from him, that is mainly coming from you. Whether he quotes local media references or other, at least references are being quoted rather than the emotive drivel that comes out of the anti HS2 camps.

Now if you yourself wanted to make suggestions instead of attacking all of the time, then your posts would hold more credibility. Until then, I will class you as one of those lobbyists that Metroland suggests.

 

[sprinterguy]

A Staffordshire MP is pushing for tilting trains on HS2. Not because of any benefits this would deliver once HS2 trains join the classic network, but in an attempt to allow HS2 to take a more sinuous alignment:

http://www.birminghampost.net/daily...-route-and-use-tilting-trains-65233-27777460/

Given that tilting trains are mainly for passenger comfort, with a reduction in track wear on bends a useful additional benefit, this seems a bit of a non-starter.

 

[BR 1979]

A Staffordshire MP is pushing for tilting trains on HS2. Not because of any benefits this would deliver once HS2 trains join the classic network, but in an attempt to allow HS2 to take a more sinuous alignment:

http://www.birminghampost.net/daily...-route-and-use-tilting-trains-65233-27777460/

Given that tilting trains are mainly for passenger comfort, with a reduction in track wear on bends a useful additional benefit, this seems a bit of a non-starter.

Interesting development , looks like the old adage of 'lets make do' is likely to appear with these proposals rather than Britain getting a dedicated high speed passenger route.
Whilst I am all for improvements I think most people who use the railways will be asking the question 'when do I get a seat ? ' rather than 'when will we get HS2 ? '

 

[YesToHS2]

A Staffordshire MP is pushing for tilting trains on HS2. Not because of any benefits this would deliver once HS2 trains join the classic network, but in an attempt to allow HS2 to take a more sinuous alignment:

http://www.birminghampost.net/daily...-route-and-use-tilting-trains-65233-27777460/

Given that tilting trains are mainly for passenger comfort, with a reduction in track wear on bends a useful additional benefit, this seems a bit of a non-starter.

Would tilting trains actually save any time? Considering the 20 minute time saving will be when the train reaches the HS2 line would a none tilting train reduce time saving considerably enough to justify the cost? Classic compatible units are said to be considerably more than standard units even without tilt. I seems like a interesting point but I would like to know more with regards to time and cost.

 

[LE Greys]

Would tilting trains actually save any time? Considering the 20 minute time saving will be when the train reaches the HS2 line would a none tilting train reduce time saving considerably enough to justify the cost? Classic compatible units are said to be considerably more than standard units even without tilt. I seems like a interesting point but I would like to know more with regards to time and cost.

Certainly not on a properly laid-out high speed line. I can understand it farther north, to take advantage of the EPS speed limits on the WCML, and ideally the ECML later on as well. Thing is, curves would push up costs for several reasons. Firstly, more line in the first place. Secondly, more expensive stock. Thirdly, the costs of fitting TASS. Finally, increased maintenance, because of all the extra track forces on curves. In general, it's a very bad idea.

 

[YesToHS2]

Certainly not on a properly laid-out high speed line. I can understand it farther north, to take advantage of the EPS speed limits on the WCML, and ideally the ECML later on as well. Thing is, curves would push up costs for several reasons. Firstly, more line in the first place. Secondly, more expensive stock. Thirdly, the costs of fitting TASS. Finally, increased maintenance, because of all the extra track forces on curves. In general, it's a very bad idea.

Sorry, I meant say on a trip from Glasgow to London for example, travelling 100mph ish (no tilt) on the WCML and then 225mph (current planned alignment) on HS2. Would that diminish the 20 minute time saving considerably enough to warrant tilt for the conventional network?