Well, the Heathrow rail link has been outside Oyster and Travelcard restrictions for as long as it's been in operation, charging what to me seems an incredibly high premium price for a short journey, and doesn't look likely to change this policy any time soon. At least Southeastern HS1 services don't pile insult onto this by having chunks of the train set aside for even more expensive first class...
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High Speed 1 Commuters
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Well, the Heathrow rail link has been outside Oyster and Travelcard restrictions for as long as it's been in operation, charging what to me seems an incredibly high premium price for a short journey, and doesn't look likely to change this policy any time soon. At least Southeastern HS1 services don't pile insult onto this by having chunks of the train set aside for even more expensive first class...
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R
RailUK Forums
Yes, but I'd accept a premium for an airport train.. nearly every country that has an airport express train charges a premium.
HS1 is merely a different route into London, taking in a couple of new stations along the way. It's been built up as something revolutionary because the trains can do 140mph as against 125mph on other Intercity routes.
I'm not convinced this is worth paying £4.50 as a supplement if you choose to travel via HS1 than the older route - and have to buy a replacement ticket for one you already have.
SET will give discounts for railcards, but I find it odd that they don't recognise an existing ticket that covers St Pancras to Stratford. That is silly and has to change.
Given time, I am sure it will. Otherwise we're setting a dangerous precedent for any new railway lines that might be built in the future.
HS1 is merely a different route into London, taking in a couple of new stations along the way. It's been built up as something revolutionary because the trains can do 140mph as against 125mph on other Intercity routes.
I'm not convinced this is worth paying £4.50 as a supplement if you choose to travel via HS1 than the older route - and have to buy a replacement ticket for one you already have.
SET will give discounts for railcards, but I find it odd that they don't recognise an existing ticket that covers St Pancras to Stratford. That is silly and has to change.
Given time, I am sure it will. Otherwise we're setting a dangerous precedent for any new railway lines that might be built in the future.
I actually meant £4.90 for the HS1 upgrade.
Here's my wonderful ticket combination for a return trip to Ashford to test out the 395s... isn't it nice and easy?!
Now what happens when a commuter that doesn't pay for HS1 decides one day to 'upgrade' for a single journey? Will an annual Travelcard from, say, Gillingham allow use of HS1 with just the £4.90 upgrade - or will they say that it isn't valid on the Travelcard covered part and charge said commuter an excess too?
Commuters are already rather concerned about the extra cost - as well as having an increase on season tickets next year (when everyone else is either staying the same or going down) even when they're NOT using HS1.
Here's my wonderful ticket combination for a return trip to Ashford to test out the 395s... isn't it nice and easy?!
Now what happens when a commuter that doesn't pay for HS1 decides one day to 'upgrade' for a single journey? Will an annual Travelcard from, say, Gillingham allow use of HS1 with just the £4.90 upgrade - or will they say that it isn't valid on the Travelcard covered part and charge said commuter an excess too?
Commuters are already rather concerned about the extra cost - as well as having an increase on season tickets next year (when everyone else is either staying the same or going down) even when they're NOT using HS1.
Mintona
Established Member
A Gillingham - London 1-6 travelcard route Non HS1 is valid with an upgrade on high speed, although I can't recall what the exact price is for a daily upgrade return from Gillingham.
There shouldn't be an excess to pay if I have understood your question correctly. Travelcards are valid on high speed as long as they have (eg. Ashford - London Zones 1-6) and + high speed, or an upgrade.
There shouldn't be an excess to pay if I have understood your question correctly. Travelcards are valid on high speed as long as they have (eg. Ashford - London Zones 1-6) and + high speed, or an upgrade.
I had a normal Travelcard (as you can see) and was told that this was NOT valid in order to get an extension, so I'd have to always buy a ticket originating from St Pancras.
Presumably, Stratford International isn't counted as a valid station within the zones - so SET must make an exception for tickets they've issued themselves.
It's a PITA as I now have to pay to travel within the Travelcard zone twice (okay, being pedantic, I'm not as it isn't included) and that means extra cost again. Besides the cost of the normal journey to Ashford (as shown), there's an additional cost of £4.90 + £1.90!
Next year, I'd have been taking trains to Gillingham and considering the upgrade - but I can happily get an extension on my Travelcard to Gillingham and get my third off. How much is it going to cost on HS1 when I have to pay from Z1 (so ignore my travelcard completely) to Gillingham? I get the third off, but big deal!
Presumably, Stratford International isn't counted as a valid station within the zones - so SET must make an exception for tickets they've issued themselves.
It's a PITA as I now have to pay to travel within the Travelcard zone twice (okay, being pedantic, I'm not as it isn't included) and that means extra cost again. Besides the cost of the normal journey to Ashford (as shown), there's an additional cost of £4.90 + £1.90!
Next year, I'd have been taking trains to Gillingham and considering the upgrade - but I can happily get an extension on my Travelcard to Gillingham and get my third off. How much is it going to cost on HS1 when I have to pay from Z1 (so ignore my travelcard completely) to Gillingham? I get the third off, but big deal!
Mintona
Established Member
I don't understand your questioning to be honest, yorkie will probably know. None of those things seem to be travelcards as we have them down our way.
If you had a Gillingham - London Zones 1-6 gold card, you'd be fine to use it between Gillingham and London once a day and up to Hadley Wood/Hatfield as well I'd think. Although I don't think that is what you are asking.
If you had a Gillingham - London Zones 1-6 gold card, you'd be fine to use it between Gillingham and London once a day and up to Hadley Wood/Hatfield as well I'd think. Although I don't think that is what you are asking.
I split my ticket, which is why I have the Hatfield-Hadley Wood and then a Z1-6 Travelcard, which is technically breaching other rules when I use a train that doesn't stop at Hadley Wood - yet First Capital Connect implicitly state that they will accept the combination.
When I used it for HS1, it was only the Travelcard (bottom Gold Record Card) that I was 'using' to ask for an extension from boundary zone 6. Now, I know that when you travel in from outside, they must give a ticket to an actual station within the zones - but you should be able to do it the other way even if there's no actual station within the boundary.
Clearly, SET has different rules. The lady that excessed my ticket did say that they are the same as HEX in that they don't recognise Travelcards on HS1 (but, it seems they do if they issued one).
It's all rather confusing, but more importantly - expensive.
The cost for me to go from Hatfield to Ashford is £9.65. On HS1 it's £16.45! That's a £6.80 premium for a train that can travel really fast, but in reality (going by what people have said) often doesn't quite hit top speed.
When I used it for HS1, it was only the Travelcard (bottom Gold Record Card) that I was 'using' to ask for an extension from boundary zone 6. Now, I know that when you travel in from outside, they must give a ticket to an actual station within the zones - but you should be able to do it the other way even if there's no actual station within the boundary.
Clearly, SET has different rules. The lady that excessed my ticket did say that they are the same as HEX in that they don't recognise Travelcards on HS1 (but, it seems they do if they issued one).
It's all rather confusing, but more importantly - expensive.
The cost for me to go from Hatfield to Ashford is £9.65. On HS1 it's £16.45! That's a £6.80 premium for a train that can travel really fast, but in reality (going by what people have said) often doesn't quite hit top speed.
That doesn't sound right to me, but I'm unsure if there's a precedent to compare it to.
An equivalent may be a Boundary Zone 6 to Stevenage (SVG). This is priced at £9 for a CDR, a saving of £4.50. Yet it must be valid on East Coast as it is routed Any Permitted. East Coast do not call anywhere in the zones. On the other hand, it could be argued that the operator is irrelevant and EC are only bound to accept it by virtue of the fact it is valid on the route...
Looking at it another way, there is a fare from Boundary Zone 6 to Ashford and this is routed Any Permitted. Regardless of intent it is difficult to see how it can be claimed to be invalid, as a ticket routed Any Permitted should be valid on any route - but they'll be arguing that the Travelcard part is invalid I guess...
Travelcards are a bit of a grey area.
Virgin used to claim that they were not valid on their XC services in the area, but that was deemed by many to be unenforceable and indeed these tickets were usually accepted (I don't think I heard any reports of them being refused), and they used to be accepted in InterCity days.
Mintona
Established Member
Sorry, I think I see what you are saying now.
Southeastern don't accept Travelcards or zonal tickets on high speed services except "generic station in Kent" to London zones 1-6 route + highspeed, or zone 1 to "generic station in Kent" route + highspeed. Reason being they don't stop anywhere in the zones, and I think the highspeed route itself is seen as "outside the zones" except for St. Pancras as it has other operators who do accept travelcards. Stratford International isn't classed as being in zone 3, even though it is.
Southeastern don't accept Travelcards or zonal tickets on high speed services except "generic station in Kent" to London zones 1-6 route + highspeed, or zone 1 to "generic station in Kent" route + highspeed. Reason being they don't stop anywhere in the zones, and I think the highspeed route itself is seen as "outside the zones" except for St. Pancras as it has other operators who do accept travelcards. Stratford International isn't classed as being in zone 3, even though it is.
But that logic can't be quite right, as EC don't stop within the Zones, yet Travelcards are accepted providing they are not restricted to "FCC Only". Likewise the same applies on the West Coast with Virgin, a Travelcard is valid providing it is not "LM Only"
There must be some other reason/legislation that prevents it....
There must be some other reason/legislation that prevents it....
Mintona
Established Member
I don't honestly know, that is what I have been told is acceptable. Boundary zone 6 - Ashford is not valid, tickets must be purchased from London Terminals to Ashford.
I accept that on East Coast, you'd need a train stopping somewhere within the zones to use a Travelcard.
However, I do accept different rules on Intercity routes. I don't see the HS1 service as an Intercity service - perhaps they do.
Stratford International clearly isn't counted as being within the zonal system even though it is, and I'd hope that common sense will change this in the future as it makes the maps look silly having a big box to explain why one line is so 'special'. Foreigners that have high speed trains must laugh that we're making such a big deal of one single line.
I do find it rather annoying that I can't get an extension (yet they'll do a discounted ticket from London Terminals) - especially as I can combine an annual/zonal ticket with a normal ticket and travel even if a train doesn't stop at wherever the two tickets 'join'.
If SET gradually cut back services or fiddle the timetable to make people have to use HS1 instead of the older services, there will be many very upset passengers. The colleague at work simply cannot afford to buy an HS1 season ticket when he renews in January.
However, I do accept different rules on Intercity routes. I don't see the HS1 service as an Intercity service - perhaps they do.
Stratford International clearly isn't counted as being within the zonal system even though it is, and I'd hope that common sense will change this in the future as it makes the maps look silly having a big box to explain why one line is so 'special'. Foreigners that have high speed trains must laugh that we're making such a big deal of one single line.
I do find it rather annoying that I can't get an extension (yet they'll do a discounted ticket from London Terminals) - especially as I can combine an annual/zonal ticket with a normal ticket and travel even if a train doesn't stop at wherever the two tickets 'join'.
If SET gradually cut back services or fiddle the timetable to make people have to use HS1 instead of the older services, there will be many very upset passengers. The colleague at work simply cannot afford to buy an HS1 season ticket when he renews in January.
No. The free bus service will continue until the walking route through Stratford City is open.
http://nds.coi.gov.uk/content/detai...aseID=385139&SubjectId=16&AdvancedSearch=true
It is clear that travelcards are NoT valid to/from Stratford International
From TFL site
Travelcard validity:
Travelcards are valid on:
Tube, Docklands Light Railway and London Overground services
Bus services within the entire Greater London area (regardless of the zone the Travelcard actually covers)
Trams where your Travelcard includes Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6
National Rail services in London (excluding Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow, on Heathrow Express and on Southeastern High speed services between St Pancras International and Stratford International)
Scheduled Riverboat services at 1/3 off the normal fare - just show your Travelcard or Oyster card with a Travelcard on it at the time of travel
From TFL site
Travelcard validity:
Travelcards are valid on:
Tube, Docklands Light Railway and London Overground services
Bus services within the entire Greater London area (regardless of the zone the Travelcard actually covers)
Trams where your Travelcard includes Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6
National Rail services in London (excluding Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow, on Heathrow Express and on Southeastern High speed services between St Pancras International and Stratford International)
Scheduled Riverboat services at 1/3 off the normal fare - just show your Travelcard or Oyster card with a Travelcard on it at the time of travel
Thank you. This is very good news. People who want to commute from Kent to City on the HS1 won't have to pay extra for the underground and will be able to complete the journey faster.
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I took the 7.22 train at Gravesend, changed at Stratford for Liverpool Street this morning. I arrived at work at 8.10. I have to say, if the bus hadn't waited at Stratford International despite everyone was on board, it would have been quicker. I am still pleased though. It is a huge improvement from 1h45min coach journey. And my train only season ticket will get me to Liverpool Street without having to buy a travelcard.
Snapper
Established Member
Here's a selection of pictures from the launch of the service this morning:
http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/c1792147.html
http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/c1792147.html
I commute everyday from Bedford to Stratford. in my eagerness to reduce my commute time (1hr 30 each way via tube). I was hopeful that I would be able to get a through season ticket to Stratford International. I have tried three different ticket offices and national rail enquiries and all told me the ticket did not exist. I had buy a season for each leg.... at a cost 10% greater than the price of a travelcard. and I cannot travel via the underground now...:cry:.
The National Rail website informs me that a Bedford - London Terminals with 1-6 Travelcard is valid on any route shown in the National Rail Enquries journey planner. The Journey Planner routes me via HS1 to Stratford Regional among other routes. Joined up thinking on ticketing anyone?:roll:
The National Rail website informs me that a Bedford - London Terminals with 1-6 Travelcard is valid on any route shown in the National Rail Enquries journey planner. The Journey Planner routes me via HS1 to Stratford Regional among other routes. Joined up thinking on ticketing anyone?:roll:
Southgate Lad
New Member
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Oyster isn't valid on Southeastern High Speed from St Pancras in Zone 1 to Stratford International in Zone 3, one of only three exceptions to Oyster's expanded validity across National Rail throughout Zones 1-9. There's an interesting take on all of this at http://paulcolemanslondon.blogspot.com/2009/12/world-is-your-oysterif-you-stick-to.html
Write to National Rail (ATOC).
I wonder if the reason for lack of facilities on HS1 is that they are going to be funded once enough people agree to pay the supplements.
£4 to sit in a waiting room
£3 to sit in a coach offering a trolley service
£2 to go to the toilet
£2 to see some decent departure boards
£1 to use the escalator (otherwise you can use the classic route of the stairs)
Bargain!
(Snapper - hope you don't mind
)Oyster is a medium rather than a product, but yes it is true that the only 2 products (that I know) that are available on Oyster are not valid on HS1. This is to keep it....
Why have a map called "Oyster rail services in London" listing services but having a box stating that you can't use Oyster on it?
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf
Stratford International is an anomaly that I hope will be sorted out in the future.
I really do not see how HS1 is that special. Okay, the line itself is special - and Eurostar is special. The 395s are new and bright.. but look beyond and it's a straight stretch of track. Stratford International should be within the zones and usable with a normal ticket.
If we MUST have a premium, charge it when the train leaves Stratford International - rather like the Heathrow Connect when you leave the last station it calls at T123.
Will Crossrail have a hefty premium because that's a new track too? Surely the stations within Z1-6 will be usable with a normal ticket/Travelcard/Oyster?
I really do not see how HS1 is that special. Okay, the line itself is special - and Eurostar is special. The 395s are new and bright.. but look beyond and it's a straight stretch of track. Stratford International should be within the zones and usable with a normal ticket.
If we MUST have a premium, charge it when the train leaves Stratford International - rather like the Heathrow Connect when you leave the last station it calls at T123.
Will Crossrail have a hefty premium because that's a new track too? Surely the stations within Z1-6 will be usable with a normal ticket/Travelcard/Oyster?
mackenzie_blu
Member
You all seem to be forgetting that HS1 isn't looked after by Network Rail so hence the different chrages where as Crossrail is being handed over to Network Rail once built and why Oyster will be valid on it.
Also the fact that Heathrow Connect chrages for the nwer bit of track. As the bit of HS1 between St Pancras and Stratford is all new the same applies. And you can't get to Heathrow T123 on Oyster until Crossrail opens (tho it will be a higher priced fare).
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