Now that trains are stopping there, are travelcards valid from Stratford International to St. Pancras on the High Speed? The machine at St. Pancras only offers a standard return to Stratford -not specifying if it is valid on HS1 - for 4 pounds. Is this the correct fare?
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if that's a fare to Stratford itself, not International, then probably not... but if it was offering that to Stratford International, then it has to be valid on the basis that direct trains are always valid, the shortest route is also always valid, and if a ticket is a valid route and does not specify "Not HS1" then it is valid on HS1.
There's a seperate thread on a similar vein already relating to using Stratford to Liverpool Street and whether tickets to London Terminals are valid ....I use the HS1 and have asked 3 different Train Managers since yesterday and have had 3 different answers!!
1 said "not sure but would find out" (which he did ring me yesterday to say his ticketing contact had not yet replied.
1 last night said "yes - Liverpool Street is a London terminal - I would let you through"
This morning I was told that "London Terminals were an old Southern Region expression and the tickets were not valid"
As is normally my experience with South Eastern confusion reigns!!
1 said "not sure but would find out" (which he did ring me yesterday to say his ticketing contact had not yet replied.
1 last night said "yes - Liverpool Street is a London terminal - I would let you through"
This morning I was told that "London Terminals were an old Southern Region expression and the tickets were not valid"
As is normally my experience with South Eastern confusion reigns!!
dan_atki
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Interesting responses there, and only the first one is the sensible one.
The second has some element of logic but if that system was true then ticketing through London would be rather flawed as demonstrated by the following example: Someone holds a South Hampstead to London Terminals ticket. Which London Terminal(s) is it valid into?
Obvious answer is 'Euston only'. But what if the customer travelled the opposite direction to Willesden Junction and from there went to Clapham Junction, to Waterloo, London Bridge, and finished at Cannon Street? Is that fine 'because Cannon Street is a London Terminal'?
No? The customer then says 'well fares in London are zonal based, I've paid for a ticket from zone 2 to zone 1 effectively, and I am travelling from zone 2 to zone 1'. Is this argument convincing you? Hopefully not! Even if it seems plausible it *might* be valid, if you are not travelling on the shortest route (and here that would mean to the nearest Terminal - not just one of your choosing) nor on a direct train then the Routeing Guide must be consulted to see if your intended route is valid.
In a similar manner, South Hampstead to Willesden Junction to Stratford to Liverpool Street would be an example to use to show obvious shortcomings of the argument given by the Train Manager. If the zonal argument above was correct then you could say well Stratford is in zone 3 - a zone that has not been paid for. Indeed, in many cases the fare does exclude a route because it ventures into a zone not paid for. The logic is fine in that direction, but it is not true in reverse that 'because you have paid for the zones means you can take any route in those zones'! Whether you feel this is the right or wrong approach to use in a zonal scenario is a debate that can probably be left to another thread.
The last response of the old SR term has just completely bewildered me. Not only is that historically inaccurate but is very misleading in the opposite extreme to the second answer (I'll let you decide which out of 2 and 3 is the most misleading!).
The term when under BR was 'London BR' later 'London Brit Rail' as 'London BR' could be confused with 'London Bridge'. 'London Terminals' has only existed for the last 11.5 years.
Just because you are not going into the most appropriate terminal from the station you are travelling from does not automatically mean the journey you are undertaking is invalid. Again, that's a matter for the Routeing Guide to establish. Indeed, that could be argued to be the whole point of the routeing guide - to allow obscure, but 'sensible' routes. If you go from say Selhurst then by the TM's argument that means I can only go into Victoria and not Waterloo or any other station in that cluster which I talked about in the other thread. Obviously, the very reason we have 'London Terminals' (and things like 'Manchester Stations') is to allow some flexibility into where a customer can go.
If these three Train Managers were fares trained then it says a lot about the rules if not even they can understand them. As has been experienced, many things are open to interpretation and it can depend on the member of staff as to whether you are 'valid' or otherwise. This is clearly not an acceptable system as it is not down to the individual member of staff's opinion to say whether something is valid. The rules are there for a reason.
Just looked on the southeastern ticket website and it now seems to quote an Anytime Single from St Pancras to Stratford International at £5, an Off-Peak Day Return at £6.50 and an Anytime Return at £8.50.
That compares with £2.20 off-peak single and £2.70 peak single using Oyster between Zone 1 and Zone 3. Cash single from Liverpool Street to Stratford is £4.
That compares with £2.20 off-peak single and £2.70 peak single using Oyster between Zone 1 and Zone 3. Cash single from Liverpool Street to Stratford is £4.
Failed Unit
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That was my interpretation as well, places in the South East such as East Croydon you can get without taking long routes to Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Victoria, St Pancras and Blackfrairs (but not Farrington). I notice if your ticket is Southern only it does have destination Victoria only it. Having the terminal names does cause confusion. I once had a Canterbury East - London Victoria ticket (as printed) on my return I wanted to go from Charing Cross - West. The person at the gate wasn't for letting me through until went to the ticket office to ask for an excess... Can you go say East Croydon - Waterloo mainline by changing at Clapham Junction or is that "terminal abuse"?
This is the danger, someone could get accused of fare dodging because they were told it was OK to do something one week and then told they are not allowed to do it the following week. This often occurs on excess tickets as well, I have personally shown an old excess ticket to a gaurd to try and help, just to be told the person that sold you that should not have done so!:roll:
dan_atki
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Afraid not St Pancras
. London Terminals tickets from anywhere in the area South, South East, and South West of London* are generally valid into any of Victoria, Waterloo, Waterloo East, Charing Cross, London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, and City Thameslink.You can be sure if you are going through/at Farringdon with a London Terminals ticket it is not valid. In the case of St Pancras (as was the case with Kings Cross Thameslink), the destination on the ticket must Be 'London St Pancrs', if travelling via Farringdon.
*i.e. going into London from anywhere on the Southern, Southeastern, or South West Trains networks.
East Croydon to Waterloo is fine via Clapham Junction because the routeing guide says so (as it does for many journeys from SN/SE/SW networks to 'London Terminals'). Croydon Group to London Group is valid on map LB, evidently in urgent need of update with the reference to KCM!
The map shows a whole plethora of routes available to you from Croydon to London and any is valid as long as you don't double back on yourself.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Oyster-rail-services-in-London-Jan-2010.pdf
says "Only Southeastern High Speed tickets are valid on services from St. Pancras International via Stratford International"
dan_atki
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Good - he's confirmed what I posted a few days ago then! http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=375150&postcount=17
Yes indeed - and very helpful your advice was too!! I quoted it to him (it didn't mean much to me being a mere passenger!), which he understood and obviously used to good effect!
I'll give it a go tomorrow morning - guess it will then be a case of convincing the staff at Stratford Domestic and Liverpool Street!!
I'll give it a go tomorrow morning - guess it will then be a case of convincing the staff at Stratford Domestic and Liverpool Street!!
dan_atki
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No problem at all!
If you are interested in understanding why it's valid I'd be happy to write a more technical detailed explanation (yeah, more technical!) with links. Otherwise, feel free to take it as given!All you should* have to say to whoever's causing a fuss is 'I'm on the shortest route according to the National Rail Timetable** and as such this is valid'.
*But life may not always be this easy, in which case you should repeat yourself to staff who are more knowledgable in such matters, consulting the ticket office if necessary.
**The NRT has the distances between stations on each table (except the CrossCountry one on Table 51). It is generally understood that when calculating shortest distance for routes you should use these distances.
All went smoothly thanks - 29 minutes from leaving the train to arriving at work. Which means a net 5 minute improvement (and more importantly no extra cost of having to buy a tube ticket) on my previous quickest journey of StP to Moorgate nad then walking
Not bad, considering that this route into the City hasn't even been promoted as a way to save time!
One possible spanner in the works: AIUI the bus service is only temporary until the DLR extension opens. I'm pretty certain that a London Terminals ticket won't be valid for the DLR, unless Eurostar/South Eastern/ATOC come to some agreement with TfL to allow Stratford Regional to Stratford International transfer by DLR for holders of National Rail tickets that wouldn't otherwise be valid on LU or DLR services.
An interesting question re time saved. If you look at what they are going to do come the new timetable,I reckon to be saving around 13 hours a week travelling time, broken down by:
Out of bed 47 minutes later
Arrive at work 18 minutes earlier
Leave work 20 minutes later
Arrive home 16 minutes earlier.
Less time spent travelling 90 minutes per day.
People who complain that the line goes into the wrong part of London are only seeing part of the story. I work 5 minutes walk from Cannon Street, but would allow 20 minutes to get there to ensure a seat. No such issues with HS1 - usually plenty of room even with only 1 Ashford and beyond service an hour - I anticipate this situation improving. The comfort that these services afford combined with the time saving make this decision a no brainer for me. I appreciate that not everyone will be in a position to make the switch - I think it's terrible that there are no direct trains to Folkestone from Cannon Street or London Bridge between 16:45 and and 18.08, meaning (I assume as I haven't seen the full timetable) either a change at Ashford (with associated wait) or trekking back to Waterloo East (allow 30 minutes - the same as going to Stratford/St Pancras) to pick up an overcrowded Charing Cross service, which will likely mean standing to Tonbridge at least.
Also the flexibility the service will offer on those difficult to raise your head days and wanting to get home early or late without it being the next day is a plus, but the only down side is no trolley service!!
Out of bed 47 minutes later
Arrive at work 18 minutes earlier
Leave work 20 minutes later
Arrive home 16 minutes earlier.
Less time spent travelling 90 minutes per day.
People who complain that the line goes into the wrong part of London are only seeing part of the story. I work 5 minutes walk from Cannon Street, but would allow 20 minutes to get there to ensure a seat. No such issues with HS1 - usually plenty of room even with only 1 Ashford and beyond service an hour - I anticipate this situation improving. The comfort that these services afford combined with the time saving make this decision a no brainer for me. I appreciate that not everyone will be in a position to make the switch - I think it's terrible that there are no direct trains to Folkestone from Cannon Street or London Bridge between 16:45 and and 18.08, meaning (I assume as I haven't seen the full timetable) either a change at Ashford (with associated wait) or trekking back to Waterloo East (allow 30 minutes - the same as going to Stratford/St Pancras) to pick up an overcrowded Charing Cross service, which will likely mean standing to Tonbridge at least.
Also the flexibility the service will offer on those difficult to raise your head days and wanting to get home early or late without it being the next day is a plus, but the only down side is no trolley service!!
323235
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Strange how an Anytime Day Return is cheaper than an Off Peak Day Return between Stratford Int and St Pancras
I have been commuting to City from Gravesend on coach for the past 3 years. I have now decided to use the HS1 (High speed) service. I was prepared to pay the more expensive season ticket with extra for the underground until I saw this thread.
It seems it is going to be cheaper to change at Stratford for Liverpool Street. I contacted the Southeastern ticket office at Ebbsfleet today and received a call back earlier. Their system is allowing to purchase a train only season ticket to Liverpool Street. The person at the office recommends to try the journey with a return ticket first before committing for the season ticket. I also submitted an enquiry on Southeastern website. I will let you know the reply.
It seems it is going to be cheaper to change at Stratford for Liverpool Street. I contacted the Southeastern ticket office at Ebbsfleet today and received a call back earlier. Their system is allowing to purchase a train only season ticket to Liverpool Street. The person at the office recommends to try the journey with a return ticket first before committing for the season ticket. I also submitted an enquiry on Southeastern website. I will let you know the reply.
Do bear in mind though, whatever the position might be at the moment, the DLR extension to Stratford International will open in around 6-8 months. As mentioned in my post above, I would expect the bus link to be withdrawn then - and you may well need an extra ticket to travel on the DLR between the two Stratford stations.
Even if that's the case, at least it will mean the pain of having to buy a tube ticket as well as the extra for HS1 will be deferred for a bit.
I'll probably use the StP - City Thameslink option then walk. Will add a bit of time on to the trip but still not disasterous.
Did the door to door in just under 100 minutes today - which includes a 10 minute drive into Folkestone (still some free parking at the West too!) with a bit of contingency and a stop for a paper built in.
I have now decided to go for a train only season ticket using the new HS1(High Speed train) from Gravesend to Liverpool Street via Stratford. There is currenctly a bus link between Stratford International and Stratford Regional and it only takes 5 mins. As suggested by A60K, one would expect the bus service to be withdrwan when DLR is operational. Does anyone know how long is the distance between the international and regional stations? How long would it take to walk? Will it be possible to walk?
At the moment, it is theoretically possible to walk, but its a huge roundabout trip round the edge of the Olympics site through some pretty grim areas. Any time advantage you gain on HS1 would definitely be lost on the walk. However, eventually whien the new north station entrance opens at Stratford regional, or when the new Westfield shopping centre opens, I would imagine it will be only about 5mins. I don't know if they plan to open either of these before the Olympics or not.
A season ticket from Gravesend to Liverpool Street via Stratford costs £3292, same as St. Pancras. As I work near Liverpol Street, I don't have to pay extra for the underground. That is the advantage of changing at Stratford. I am hoping to do the journey from Gravesend to City under 45 mins door-to-door.
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Mintona
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You are not allowed to walk between Stratford Intl and Stratford Rgnl, the only connection is via bus. It is envisaged it will take 15mins walking through Westfield when it opens. Hope this helps.
Do you know if the bus service will be withdrawn once the new DLR is operational?
Mintona
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I honestly don't know to be honest. I will ask around and try to find out for you.
How long does anyone think HS1 will be able to not only command a hefty premium, but also impose strict restrictions that really mess up the new Oyster rail map.
Here we have a special line that is marked as being excluded from the use of Oyster just as every other TOC has signed up (including SET on the older routes) - and when I used HS1 (no complaints about the train - which is lovely), I couldn't even get a ticket extension (in addition to the HS1 supplement) meaning having to pay AGAIN for travelling between St Pancras and the boundary (or at least Stratford International as I guess Ebbsfleet is outside Z6?).
Surely someone, perhaps the next Government, will see sense in bringing it into line with normal services. It's not as if this train is super-fast, it's merely using a very direct line and without many stations en route.
Here we have a special line that is marked as being excluded from the use of Oyster just as every other TOC has signed up (including SET on the older routes) - and when I used HS1 (no complaints about the train - which is lovely), I couldn't even get a ticket extension (in addition to the HS1 supplement) meaning having to pay AGAIN for travelling between St Pancras and the boundary (or at least Stratford International as I guess Ebbsfleet is outside Z6?).
Surely someone, perhaps the next Government, will see sense in bringing it into line with normal services. It's not as if this train is super-fast, it's merely using a very direct line and without many stations en route.
Electrostar
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I'm 99% sure the bus will be withdrawn once the DLR opens. It was a temporary measure to allow Stratford International passengers to connect with the old town. A travolator was mooted between the two stations but funding wasn't available. As stated above you will also be able to walk to a new Stratford Regional ticket hall on the Westfield side from S'Intl. There's also a pedestrian bridge spanning the regional tracks (not yet open) should you wish to go to Stratford old town without entering the station.
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