Heritage Railways providing a public service

[Brush 4]

The only way is for TOC's to run the services with modern stock, intertwined with the heritage service. NR would upgrade to 40-60 mph where possible. They would run before and after the heritage service mostly, as that is the most useful times for travellers, both local and longer distance. There was one to Corfe Castle a while back with a 158 or 159, from.... Salisbury?
I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that too many lines have an insular 'pull up the drawbridge' attitude and if they won't connect to the outside world, someone else should do it and take the new source of revenue.
The notion that no-one would use these is nonsense, because NR lines to places like St Ives, Falmouth and many others do well enough without the attraction of steam but, with the same subsidy that most of the network has anyway. Swanage, Minehead towns, are much the same as Newquay, Looe and other towns in the NR branches in the west, in terms of what they offer.

 

[stuu]

Minehead - Exeter is 40 miles as the crow flies - via Taunton is a long way round.

Only someone who had never driven that road would possibly suggest that. Minehead to Exeter by car is getting on for an hour and a half. A train to Taunton would be fairly competitive. Not that many people would be daft enough to do either choice.

As it is my local route (and I was foolish enough to catch the 28 end to end last weekend), it would definitely be a good thing if the WSR ran a through service. Perhaps steam could run Minehead to Williton in the week, and all the way at weekends? This could allow an hourly DMU to cover the route as well. Speed improvements could easily get the journey time under an hour, it's only 25 miles and a proper passenger service could sensibly miss Crowcombe, Stogumber and Washford

 

[A0]

Speed improvements could easily get the journey time under an hour, it's only 25 miles and a proper passenger service could sensibly miss Crowcombe, Stogumber and Washford

The WSR operates under a light railway order and is limited to 25mph as a result.

Changing that can be done but would be expensive - the GCR have done it *but* the GCR has no level crossings and have generated revenue for such works by allowing the line to be used for test purposes. The WSR's location makes it unattractive for the latter and it was only a year ago the WSR was having serious financial problems, meaning the costs of improving the linespeed aren't affordable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that too many lines have an insular 'pull up the drawbridge' attitude and if they won't connect to the outside world, someone else should do it and take the new source of revenue.

The notion that no-one would use these is nonsense, because NR lines to places like St Ives, Falmouth and many others do well enough without the attraction of steam but, with the same subsidy that most of the network has anyway. Swanage, Minehead towns, are much the same as Newquay, Looe and other towns in the NR branches in the west, in terms of what they offer.

Have you ever been involved with a heritage railway? Been a member or actively volunteered at one?

I know a number of people who have and without exception the two biggest hurdles cited that such railways have are resource both financial and human. Making such connections to "the outside world" as you put it is costly, would add to the railway's operating costs, would need more people to operate it - remember the bulk of the staffing on such lines is made up of volunteers. And if the line wants to run onto the National Network those volunteers then need to be trained to the standard to allow them to operate on the National Network and the rolling stock has to be maintained to that standard as well.

And on the subsidy question, where is that extra subsidy coming from? It will mean reductions elsewhere, so which currently subsidised service will you be happy to see cut? Because the subsidy pot isn't going to be increased just to cover such flights of fancy.

 

[stuu]

The WSR operates under a light railway order and is limited to 25mph as a result.

Changing that can be done but would be expensive - the GCR have done it *but* the GCR has no level crossings and have generated revenue for such works by allowing the line to be used for test purposes. The WSR's location makes it unattractive for the latter and it was only a year ago the WSR was having serious financial problems, meaning the costs of improving the linespeed aren't affordable.

I know. This is in an ideal world where there is a big money tree which allows NR to take over the infrastructure and improve it to the point of being usable. West Somerset has appalling access, and pretty bad socioeconomic statistics. The main road has several segments which aren't even wide enough for a centre line

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As these lines are nearly all former BR Lines if it worked financially to run a commuter service it wouldn’t have closed in the first place, what is different now?

The notion that no-one would use these is nonsense, because NR lines to places like St Ives, Falmouth and many others do well enough without the attraction of steam but, with the same subsidy that most of the network has anyway. Swanage, Minehead towns, are much the same as Newquay, Looe and other towns in the NR branches in the west, in terms of what they offer.

The difference here is lines like St Ives and Falmouth have been rationalised and other than the on train staff do not require any operational staff to run the branch line. Preserved lines generally need signal boxes switched in which brings a high staff cost.

 

[pdeaves]

if it worked financially to run a commuter service it wouldn’t have closed in the first place, what is different now?

In many cases (not all, by any means), the balance of housing and employment has significantly changed since the line closed.

 

[A0]

I know. This is in an ideal world where there is a big money tree which allows NR to take over the infrastructure and improve it to the point of being usable. West Somerset has appalling access, and pretty bad socioeconomic statistics. The main road has several segments which aren't even wide enough for a centre line

Family friends lived in Minehead until recently - I'm not blind to the access challenges, but I'd point out the whole of West Somerset only has a population of 34,000 - Minehead itself is only 11,000.

It isn't what you (or others on here) want to hear, but it would be far better to improve the A39 and A 358 - measures to improve the safety and reliability of those roads which would in turn improve the journey time and reliability of the local bus services would achieve far more than changing the WSR away from being a tourist attraction. The changes which would be needed to make it a viable commuter railway would largely destroy what makes it attractive as a heritage railway and that would lose it revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

In many cases (not all, by any means), the balance of housing and employment has significantly changed since the line closed.

But to reopen the railway and make it even remotely viable would almost certainly need even more housing - take Minehead as an example, currently population of 11,000 - a reasonable comparison would be with Barnstaple - not very far away and that's double the size at 25,000.

 

[pdeaves]

But to reopen the railway and make it even remotely viable would almost certainly need even more housing - take Minehead as an example, currently population of 11,000 - a reasonable comparison would be with Barnstaple - not very far away and that's double the size at 25,000.

Sure, I'm not arguing with that, just pointing out to the other person that some circumstances have changed.

 

[stuu]

Family friends lived in Minehead until recently - I'm not blind to the access challenges, but I'd point out the whole of West Somerset only has a population of 34,000 - Minehead itself is only 11,000.

It isn't what you (or others on here) want to hear, but it would be far better to improve the A39 and A 358 - measures to improve the safety and reliability of those roads which would in turn improve the journey time and reliability of the local bus services would achieve far more than changing the WSR away from being a tourist attraction. The changes which would be needed to make it a viable commuter railway would largely destroy what makes it attractive as a heritage railway and that would lose it revenue.

Improving the road would be a much more useful option I agree.

Not sure about the heritage part though, the vast majority of visitors go for a ride on a steam train, rather than being enthusiasts who would notice. There's no reason the stations couldn't be kept more or less as-is, which is the only part most visitors particularly notice

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In many cases (not all, by any means), the balance of housing and employment has significantly changed since the line closed.

Sure, I'm not arguing with that, just pointing out to the other person that some circumstances have changed.

Yes you are correct circumstances have changed, cost of operation of the railway has increased just as much as the balance of housing, overall the two will wipe each other out!

 

[Brush 4]

AOwen said
And on the subsidy question, where is that extra subsidy coming from? It will mean reductions elsewhere, so which currently subsidised service will you be happy to see cut? Because the subsidy pot isn't going to be increased just to cover such flights of fancy.

How are Okehampton, E-W, Blyth and Tyne, Levenmouth opening then? They haven't caused reductions elsewhere. If anything was a flight of fancy, a total rebuild of Bletchley viaduct was it. If that was proposed on here as a way to reopen that route, when nothing was planned for it, it would have been laughed out of court.

Heritage lines wouldn't need to do run onto NR, TOC's would run on to them, with their own staff. In and out again, no impact on the heritage line apart from timetabling. The staff and stations are already there anyway so no extra cost there either. Extending the services to further out, eg Bristol/Bournemouth increases the attractiveness and flexibility of the services. Trying to twist arguments to make a phony 'case' against new innovative rail services is just weird.

 

[Falcon1200]

The staff and stations are already there anyway so no extra cost there either.

The staff on heritage railways are only there when required to run trains, which is certainly not 363 days a year, or (except very occasionally) at 0600, for example.

 

[A0]

How are Okehampton, E-W, Blyth and Tyne, Levenmouth opening then? They haven't caused reductions elsewhere. If anything was a flight of fancy, a total rebuild of Bletchley viaduct was it. If that was proposed on here as a way to reopen that route, when nothing was planned for it, it would have been laughed out of court.

Heritage lines wouldn't need to do run onto NR, TOC's would run on to them, with their own staff. In and out again, no impact on the heritage line apart from timetabling. The staff and stations are already there anyway so no extra cost there either. Extending the services to further out, eg Bristol/Bournemouth increases the attractiveness and flexibility of the services. Trying to twist arguments to make a phony 'case' against new innovative rail services is just weird.

That's got to be a new one - running onto the Swanage Railway is a "new innovative rail service" - please tell me what you're drinking.

BTW it's so "innovative" that 40 years ago BR were running a service from Peterborough to Orton Mere on the Nene Valley Railway...... it hasn't run for many years.

 

[30907]

How are Okehampton, E-W, Blyth and Tyne, Levenmouth opening then? They haven't caused reductions elsewhere. If anything was a flight of fancy, a total rebuild of Bletchley viaduct was it.

Two of them are "levelling up," one is in Scotland (different rules apply!), and EWR phase 1 has a good business case including freight.
More to the point, all are for all-day services not peak hour only (which is the only way heritage lines could operate).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Heritage lines wouldn't need to do run onto NR, TOC's would run on to them, with their own staff. In and out again, no impact on the heritage line apart from timetabling. The staff and stations are already there anyway so no extra cost there either.

Please tell me how you plan to staff the mechanical signal boxes nearly all preserved lines rely on to run trains or are volunteers expected to work winter mornings/evenings when the preserved line is usually shut? Ok you could switch them out and run one train ‘in steam’, but then what happens when the train fails and you need to rescue it, how do you deal with occupational crossings when the box is unstaffed?

Also preserved railways tend to lock up access to the stations overnight to prevent vandalism and rely on station staff during opening hours again to prevent vandalism, who does this? Paid staff or are you expecting volunteers to do this? Most NR branchlines are unstaffed instead relying on central CCTV.

Who pays for the replacement buses when the volunteers need a series of ‘blockades’ to replace wooden sleepers that usually done daytimes in winter by volunteers? Who deals with a points failure or broken rail at 6AM on Monday morning, it won’t be a NR team as their lowest standard for track is 40mph so would require a team of preserved railway volunteer MOMs….

See where the costs soon start adding up running national trains on preserved networks compared to a NR Branchline. A ‘preserved’ line bluntly is not suitable for running a weekday commuter service without being part of the national network. Running trains is relatively easy when all is going well, dealing with all the problems caused by people (vandalism, trespass) or infrastructure failure is not and is often underestimated.

 

[43096]

Please tell me how you plan to staff the mechanical signal boxes nearly all preserved lines rely on to run trains or are volunteers expected to work winter mornings/evenings when the preserved line is usually shut? Ok you could switch them out and run one train ‘in steam’, but then what happens when the train fails and you need to rescue it, how do you deal with occupational crossings when the box is unstaffed?

Also preserved railways tend to lock up access to the stations overnight to prevent vandalism and rely on station staff during opening hours again to prevent vandalism, who does this? Paid staff or are you expecting volunteers to do this? Most NR branchlines are unstaffed instead relying on central CCTV.

Who pays for the replacement buses when the volunteers need a series of ‘blockades’ to replace wooden sleepers that usually done daytimes in winter by volunteers? Who deals with a points failure or broken rail at 6AM on Monday morning, it won’t be a NR team as their lowest standard for track is 40mph so would require a team of preserved railway volunteer MOMs….

See where the costs soon start adding up running national trains on preserved networks compared to a NR Branchline. A ‘preserved’ line bluntly is not suitable for running a weekday commuter service without being part of the national network. Running trains is relatively easy when all is going well, dealing with all the problems caused by people (vandalism, trespass) or infrastructure failure is not and is often underestimated.

Very well said. To add, volunteers may be happy volunteering for the heritage railway operating days as the railway is typically not for profit enterprise. It’s something else when they volunteer to work for nothing so a commercial company can make a profit out of it.

 

[30907]

Very well said.

None of the problems mentioned is actually insuperable, but solving them would cost money in considerable quantity.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

None of the problems mentioned is actually insuperable, but solving them would cost money in considerable quantity.

That was really my point, everything is solvable but people don’t realise how much money it would eat up to reliably deliver a commuter service on a preserved line. If it was easy it would have been done by know successfully!

 

[nw1]

As these lines are nearly all former BR Lines if it worked financially to run a commuter service it wouldn’t have closed in the first place, what is different now?

Playing devil's advocate somewhat - there are plenty of lines (see the current Redditch thread for example) which were seen as unviable in the 1960s and 1970s (and while not completely closed, had an extremely sparse service) but more recently, due to changes in leisure and commuting patterns, are. I do realise that somewhere like Redditch is not comparable to the branches we're talking about here, though!

The main barrier is the work needed to get these lines up to mainline standard, rather than that no-one would actually use them if they still existed. If lines such as the Watercress Line or Swanage were never closed, then I think they would be successful now. Of course in both cases there are too many barriers to convert them into full passenger lines - but even still, I would like to see more of those innovative 'halfway house' ideas like those summer 159-operated Corfe specials that were tried recently.

I guess we'll have to wait until these grim economic times are past though!

 

[Merle Haggard]

From talking to people on the railway there seemed, before Covid, a real possibility of the tram being extended from Bury over the East Lancs Railway - obviously a bit incompatible with a steam line.

The Bury - Bacup line was an odd closure - it was closed post-Beeching, and had a half-hourly d.m.u. service unit then, but there was a real randomness in the post - Beeching closures; Bedford Bletchley only survived because the bus company could not provide RRBs for that section of the Oxford - Cambridge line.

 

[A0]

From talking to people on the railway there seemed, before Covid, a real possibility of the tram being extended from Bury over the East Lancs Railway - obviously a bit incompatible with a steam line.

The Bury - Bacup line was an odd closure - it was closed post-Beeching, and had a half-hourly d.m.u. service unit then, but there was a real randomness in the post - Beeching closures; Bedford Bletchley only survived because the bus company could not provide RRBs for that section of the Oxford - Cambridge line.

Bit in bold:

The Disused Stations site explains it slightly differently:

"The purpose of the Reshaping of British Railways (Beeching Report) of March 1963 was to create an economically viable network, involving the closure of many loss-making passenger lines and stations. The report's proposals for Lancashire and north Manchester were astonishing. The entire route from Manchester via Bury Bolton Street to Bacup and Accrington was earmarked for closure, yet the nearby Manchester & Oldham, Rochdale and the Bolton & Bury Knowsley Street & Rochdale lines were not.

The absurdity of withdrawing passenger services on the heavily used, electrified service between Manchester and Bury was acknowledged when, on 8th February 1965, the Minister of Transport refused consent to closure. However on 14th September 1966 the Minister gave permission for the Rawtenstall to Bacup and Bury to Accrington lines to close, which they did on 5th December 1966. (The final passenger train left Bacup on Saturday 3rd December.) Rawtenstall East signal box closed on 4th December 1966. For a short period up until 1968 goods services continued to run to a coal depot at Bacup but by 1969 the line had been lifted as far as Rawtenstall Station. Buffer stops were placed at the end of what was now the line from Bury at a point just short of the former level crossing. Rawtenstall reverted to being a terminus, and the passenger train service became a shuttle between Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall."

Disused Stations: Rawtenstall Station

 

[Irascible]

I lived in Tiverton as a kid - Minehead was probably as easy to get to from there as anywhere else and probably at least as fast as Taunton, it's a straight shot north ( yes, over Exmoor, I know - the road is definitely North Devon/w. Somerset, but "as easy" for sure ). The local girls all had weekend jobs cleaning at Butlins. If people still went by rail to Butlins, then the WSR might have a chance at public transport. Given the roads in the area if people still went by rail to Butlins it might be a bit busier too.

Which leads to the point - if there is a viable local transport role for these lines, surely either they wouldn't be heritage lines anyway, or there'd be a proposal to rejoin them to NR ala Okehampton. Picking a line that trundles through lovely countryside is wonderful for a day-trip line, but a mass-transit one? if the ELR was put back on the national network would it be heavy or light rail? the latter is a bit terminal for the current operations...

 

[Merle Haggard]

Bit in bold:

The Disused Stations site explains it slightly differently:

"The purpose of the Reshaping of British Railways (Beeching Report) of March 1963 was to create an economically viable network, involving the closure of many loss-making passenger lines and stations. The report's proposals for Lancashire and north Manchester were astonishing. The entire route from Manchester via Bury Bolton Street to Bacup and Accrington was earmarked for closure, yet the nearby Manchester & Oldham, Rochdale and the Bolton & Bury Knowsley Street & Rochdale lines were not.

The absurdity of withdrawing passenger services on the heavily used, electrified service between Manchester and Bury was acknowledged when, on 8th February 1965, the Minister of Transport refused consent to closure. However on 14th September 1966 the Minister gave permission for the Rawtenstall to Bacup and Bury to Accrington lines to close, which they did on 5th December 1966. (The final passenger train left Bacup on Saturday 3rd December.) Rawtenstall East signal box closed on 4th December 1966. For a short period up until 1968 goods services continued to run to a coal depot at Bacup but by 1969 the line had been lifted as far as Rawtenstall Station. Buffer stops were placed at the end of what was now the line from Bury at a point just short of the former level crossing. Rawtenstall reverted to being a terminus, and the passenger train service became a shuttle between Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall."

Disused Stations: Rawtenstall Station

Thank you, I jumped to a conclusion there - I remember the line North of Bury remaining open until ?ca 1970 but hadn't appreciated it had been cut back to Rawtenstall, and also assumed that a line closed that late was a post-Beeching one.
I also hadn't realised that the Knowsley St. route WAS a post Beeching closure.

(Post Beeching meaning a line not included in the original report, but subsequently closed)

 

[paul1609]

Please tell me how you plan to staff the mechanical signal boxes nearly all preserved lines rely on to run trains or are volunteers expected to work winter mornings/evenings when the preserved line is usually shut? Ok you could switch them out and run one train ‘in steam’, but then what happens when the train fails and you need to rescue it, how do you deal with occupational crossings when the box is unstaffed?

Also preserved railways tend to lock up access to the stations overnight to prevent vandalism and rely on station staff during opening hours again to prevent vandalism, who does this? Paid staff or are you expecting volunteers to do this? Most NR branchlines are unstaffed instead relying on central CCTV.

At the K&esr we can close out the signal boxes at Wittersham Road and Northiam using a system known as a block. When Wittersham is closed out the Rolvenden signalman issues a line staff for the section to Northiam. At Northiam there is an on platform machine which allows the train crew to exchange the staff for the next section to Bodiam.
This is how we operate our evening Pullman Services with just the Rolvenden Signalman (and Tenterden Town for the departure and arrival of the train there). The telephone numbers for the UWC on the Northiam and Wittersham sections cascade to Rolvenden as the boxes are closed out.

 

[zwk500]

Playing devil's advocate somewhat - there are plenty of lines (see the current Redditch thread for example) which were seen as unviable in the 1960s and 1970s (and while not completely closed, had an extremely sparse service) but more recently, due to changes in leisure and commuting patterns, are. I do realise that somewhere like Redditch is not comparable to the branches we're talking about here, though!

This is a fair point, although with COVID a lot of lines that might have looked possible 5 years ago may well have slipped back out of viability.

The main barrier is the work needed to get these lines up to mainline standard, rather than that no-one would actually use them if they still existed. If lines such as the Watercress Line or Swanage were never closed, then I think they would be successful now. Of course in both cases there are too many barriers to convert them into full passenger lines - but even still, I would like to see more of those innovative 'halfway house' ideas like those summer 159-operated Corfe specials that were tried recently.

I guess we'll have to wait until these grim economic times are past though!

There's also the issue that the capacity on the main lines is better used by being allocated to other journeys, or that extensions over heritage lines would require more rolling stock.

At the K&esr we can close out the signal boxes at Wittersham Road and Northiam using a system known as a block. When Wittersham is closed out the Rolvenden signalman issues a line staff for the section to Northiam. At Northiam there is an on platform machine which allows the train crew to exchange the staff for the next section to Bodiam.
This is how we operate our evening Pullman Services with just the Rolvenden Signalman (and Tenterden Town for the departure and arrival of the train there). The telephone numbers for the UWC on the Northiam and Wittersham sections cascade to Rolvenden as the boxes are closed out.

That's all fine but assuming a commuter service was running to Tenterden from Robertsbridge, Would you have sufficient signallers to staff Rolvenden and Tenterden for both morning and evening shifts 5 days a week? And That's assuming that you don't need a signaller at Robertsbridge.

 

[paul1609]

This is a fair point, although with COVID a lot of lines that might have looked possible 5 years ago may well have slipped back out of viability.

There's also the issue that the capacity on the main lines is better used by being allocated to other journeys, or that extensions over heritage lines would require more rolling stock.

That's all fine but assuming a commuter service was running to Tenterden from Robertsbridge, Would you have sufficient signallers to staff Rolvenden and Tenterden for both morning and evening shifts 5 days a week? And That's assuming that you don't need a signaller at Robertsbridge.

Believe it or not the original aim of saving the K & ESR was to operate as an independent wagon load freight line, running occasional tourist trains.
I don't think we've ever considered running a commuter service. The point of my post was that if a line (not us) wanted to run a commuter service it is possible to modify mechanical signalling to accommodate it with much reduced manning.

 

[zwk500]

Believe it or not the original aim of saving the K & ESR was to operate as an independent wagon load freight line, running occasional tourist trains.
I don't think we've ever considered running a commuter service.

Well wagon load is dead and never coming back, although I can see tourist trains finding your line very enjoyable if you had the connection. I can't imagine Tenterden or Northiam sustaining a commuter service that isn't direct to London.

The point of my post was that if a line (not us) wanted to run a commuter service it is possible to modify mechanical signalling to accommodate it with much reduced manning.

And my point was that even with switching out etc, to operate a public service you'd need a minimum of 10 shifts a week per box. There are going to be very few heritage railways that could train and resource that level of signallers for Monday-Friday week in week out especially if the heritage stuff isn't running a proper service.

 

[Brush 4]

It is easy to forget that some lines already have a service that connects to a main line station. Paignton, Bodmin, Alton, Cholsey, Princes Risborough, Matlock, Grosmont/Whitby, Aviemore. a short walk at Kidderminster and Sheringham. Some of these stations like Cholsey and Alton have a half hourly main line service, so never a long wait for trains home.

At East Grinstead, the Bluebell according to one of the mags are, 'in a move to lure the London market, the railway will trial an earlier southbound train by bringing the 11.30 dep forward to 10.15 to meet the Southern service which leaves Victoria at 08.50'. Also, a later afternoon service will arrive EG at 17.25. Using D6570, because steam would require 'a very very early sign on time for train crew'. Good initiative there. Digging out a huge cutting full of rubbish and then not capitalising on the potential market from London makes no sense so good on them, I hope it works out. Where there's a will, there's a way.

I don't know how many of these lines market their main line connections or, if any of them do at all. If you already have it anyway, advertising it would seem the sensible option really.

 

[Dai Corner]

To turn the argument round, what if the DfT and local authorities decided a heritage line was better used as a part of the national network and either approached the owners with an offer to buy the infrastructure or compulsorily purchased it, giving notice for the heritage stock to be removed by a given date?

 

[MarkyT]

It is easy to forget that some lines already have a service that connects to a main line station. Paignton... Also, a later afternoon service will arrive EG at 17.25. Using D6570, because steam would require 'a very very early sign on time for train crew'. Good initiative there. Digging out a huge cutting full of rubbish and then not capitalising on the potential market from London makes no sense so good on them, I hope it works out. Where there's a will, there's a way.

I don't know how many of these lines market their main line connections or, if any of them do at all. If you already have it anyway, advertising it would seem the sensible option really.

I wish Dartmouth Steam Railway would run a later evening service back from Dartmouth, diesel hauled if expedient, particularly in the high season. They do some extras for the annual Regatta weekend, but that's it normally, apart from their Winter 'Train of Lights', which is a great round trip experience but not really 'transport' in any meaningful sense. There's now no public transport whatsoever back to Torbay or indeed anywhere else from the delightful little harbour town after about 6:30pm, even though there are plenty of great restaurants and pubs to sample. Minicabs quote ca £47 one way for the journey!