Heritage railway financial problems.

[paul1609]

Yes, but if the enthusiast visits 10 or 20 times a year, they provide a Lot of the income. They will also be the ones making donations, legacies and many of them are also volunteering.

But a 5-10% that comes again and again compared to people who might come if they got nothing else to do that weekend? Yeah but i know its fashionable on here to spit on people who might be enthusiastic about something. We all smell as well.

The 5% already takes in to account that they possibly visit more than once in a year since each visit is counted.
Research also suggests that the enthusiast spends less per head than the average visitor.
Most enthusiasts who are also volunteers (like me) are only too aware of the financial realities.

 

[Llanigraham]

I suspect that enthusiasts make up only 5% - 10% maximum of visitors to many of the larger (by passenger carrying) heritage railways.

Agreed.
And from my experience it is the enthusiasts who are the most demanding and have the tightest wallets!

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The 5% already takes in to account that they possibly visit more than once in a year since each visit is counted.
Research also suggests that the enthusiast spends less per head than the average visitor.
Most enthusiasts who are also volunteers (like me) are only too aware of the financial realities.

+1

 

[Merle Haggard]

The 5% already takes in to account that they possibly visit more than once in a year since each visit is counted.
Research also suggests that the enthusiast spends less per head than the average visitor.
Most enthusiasts who are also volunteers (like me) are only too aware of the financial realities.

Now, maybe.

But it was those now-old enthusiasts that, in their youth, stumped up the cash to buy the line and the stock to run on it.
Without them, there would be no heritage railways

 

[paul1609]

Now, maybe.

But it was those now-old enthusiasts that, in their youth, stumped up the cash to buy the line and the stock to run on it.
Without them, there would be no heritage railways

Im 63, I'm a part owner of a tamper, shareholder in various locos a dmu and coaches. Trust me most enthusiasts who are actively involved in railways whether an active volunteer or retired are acutely aware of the economics. I started as a volunteer when somebody from school took me to Tenterden when we were studying for A levels.

 

[6Gman]

I agree.
I was a volunteer on a local NG line and know that they have lost volunteers for various reasons, and I've heard similar comments from another local NG line.
I volunteer with the Welsh Ambulance Service doing patient transport and they are short of volunteer drivers.
I'm Chair of the Caravaning group of a large national motorclub and we are finding it difficult getting members who are willing to run meets.
I'm a car rally safety official and many rallies are finding it difficult to get marshals.
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

I think this is a key point for lots of volunteer activities.

Lots of people who had been saying "one more year" for several years; and then the 1-2 year break of Covid led to them finally finishing.

 

[Alanko]

We need to remember that ''heritage" lines compete with other leisure attractions and that "normals far outnumber enthusiasts. Often I wonder how profitable galas are

Do the veg even pay to attend galas or just set up their pole shots from adjacent fields?

I used to attend air shows for a number of years. I was always surprised that the diehard attendees always spotted in the 'naughty field' away from the normies, rather than buy tickets like everybody else. I would read damning critiques of displays, the flight line, the limited range of aircraft displaying, from guys with expensive camera rigs who didn't spend a penny at Legends, Cosford etc.

I always get the impression that galas just about wash their face, but aren't big earners.

 

[Sm5]

The posts arguing the irelevence of enthusiasts today are missing the point….

its what % of visitors they used to be.

That decline is the problem, as less enthusiasts = less volunteers = less money and is why we are where we are today… enthusiasts are gone, public are not enthusiastic.

Public expectations are higher than a cup of coffee in a styrene cup served out of a container doorway, and a toilet being an ash pile behind the shed.

Nice coaches, nice stations, nice facilities, museums you can eat your dinner off the floor cost money, need paid staff, use expensive lighting and heating.

Blackpool tram depot is about to lose its dark, damp ambient 100 year old features that costs next to nowt, and still uses lockers from the 1920’s, to be swept away by an air conditioned multi-million display.. the indiana jones types will be gone, the families will come in, but the costs will balloon, as will professional staff with “museum studies“ degrees and “retail expert” master degree staff etc.. The families will pay more, but the loos will need cleaning by contractors, not ronnies 80 year old grandmother.

But additionally those indiana jones types wont be heath robinson fixing the stock, and still contributing in a snowy january without electric and burning pallets in a drum to keep warm, whilst still donating to restore a rusting lump of unrecognisable metal that little johnnies family only see as an eyesore and a health and safety liability to downgrade a star on trip advisor…

so in come contractors to do multi million restorations too… as do advisors, consultants and paid experts of all types, some of whom used to be indiana jones types and figured they might as well take then give, in the presence of such riches, in air conditioned bright lit workshops, new tools etc.

But the costs of buying all the new stuff, paying the management, contractors etc still needs to be paid, and once little johnny gets bored and wants to see a zoo instead.. that visit becomes a once in a lifetime memory, not a volunteer convert whos prepared to give all for nowt.

Charles Darwin is key here, its not the longest lines or the lines with most passengers that will survive, but the ones most adept to change… the fixed cost burden will be the key, in a declining revenue market... if your stock is under tarpaulins outside, the cost of keeping it will be a lot less than an ambient warehouse heated 24/7 If times are tough for a few years.

 

[308165]

It feels to me like the largest and longest railways are at greatest risk, and shorter established lines may do OK.

The longest lines inevitably have the most infrastructure to manage which will suck up capital and end up with the highest fares. £25+ for a day return feels expensive and makes a route into a very occasional treat rather than something to repeat a few times a year.

My local railway (Kwvr) has a return fare of £14 which feels OK and is below the £20 mark which is a bit of a psychological barrier. Yes it's a shorter route than say the Nymr but at that price it can attract a lot of repeat trade. It also has a very reasonable residents fares scheme which I think helps keep demand up in winter. I've noticed trains on the route seem to be very full even in the depths of winter, and very few people seemed to be enthusiasts.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

I wonder if there has been a noticeable change in attendance for the real earning events, Thomas days and Santa Specials? Surely they’ll have more of a financial impact than any gala

 

[Sm5]

I wonder if there has been a noticeable change in attendance for the real earning events, Thomas days and Santa Specials? Surely they’ll have more of a financial impact than any gala

Santa events. (And lights, north pole all seem to do ok)…

So the inevitable question is… if these events earn the most money, to subsidize the rest of the year… why bother running the rest of the year ?

it maybe better to consider shutting down, and opening on special events days only ?

That maybe a better way to coalesce the troops on a volunteer level, and take away the need for paid staff, and give flexibility to volunteers to come/ go without commitments on “non operating” days, whilst focussing on max revenues from the family market on the special event days ?

Organise railways to run more like a football club.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Reading the Severn Valley News a little while ago, the motive power manager (I think) said something on the lines of 'enthusiasts who visit for steam haulage are declining in number and the general public are happy to have diesel hauled trains'

Presumably as part of that policy the standard timetable is now one steam loco and two diesel ones each making two return trips.

Now I won't argue about the first premise; but are family visitors really happy with diesels? Just that a lot of families visiting have children that seem to be quite into 'Thomas the Tank Engine' and the parents (who obviously too young to remember B.R. steam) do seem to take an interest in the steam loco. too. Will families still make their way to the front of then train at a terminus to watch the engine hook on to the train if it's a diesel? And look into the cab - obviously there won't see a fire?

Now I personally have no idea one way or the other, but why go to a heritage railway for a diesel train ride slowly through pleasant but not great scenery when there's the national network? I just think they may be shooting themselves in the foot because I suspect that it's not only the enthusiast that comes for the steam engine.

As I said, no opnioneither way, just think it's an interesting question.

 

[Alanko]

It feels to me like the largest and longest railways are at greatest risk, and shorter established lines may do OK.

This is why I'm surprised to read that the two Great Central Railways are to be joined together to create an 18 mile long heritage railway. It seems like the wrong economic climate to be building a longer line, requiring replacement bridges etc.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst the GCR will become an 18 mile railway, families can still use it as two 9 mile railways - or even shorter Lbro to Quorn and return etc. Obviously many will choose to run the full length, but it will be their choice. The other advantages of the Main line connection will give even more options. Yes it is expensive, but having the preserved Main Line between (nearly) Leicester and (nearly) Nottingham is the culmination of a 50+ year dream by many thousands of people (- enthusiasts for the dream). It is already very special with double track, a branch line, Swithland sidings etc. The fact that they have raised £1.78M for the Factory Flyover in around two years - alongside the A 60 bridge replacement and three other bridges replaced around Quorn, shows how much support there is for this dream.

 

[xotGD]

Agreed.
And from my experience it is the enthusiasts who are the most demanding and have the tightest wallets!

Not when there is a bar on the train!

 

[John Luxton]

We would love to pay a return visit to the Welsh Highland Railway, but the packaging up of the trains into “experiences” together with the steep cost (£62 each for the full length) put me off. A more affordable price, together with the ability to break the journey at Beddgelert would have resulted in a different decision.

There is an interesting letter in the current Ffestiniog Railway Magazine complaining about the lack of published flyers and timetables for the FWHR and the switch to reliance primarily in online advertising and advance bookings. I think quite a few FWHR enthusiasts are dissatisfied with the way things are being run.

I am a life member of both supporting societies and whilst I get freebie fares always made a point of spending well in the retail outlet. However whilst I was prepared to put up with the Covid service in 2020/21 and was grateful something was running come 2022 and the continued Covid style experiences I reduced my visits to just two of the gala weekend and then for the Victorian one only stayed for one day.

I don't see the situation changing. Last year I made a point of increasing my visits to the TR and WLLR for a more normal experience.

 

[Techniquest]

I heard yesterday the SVR is in trouble, and that was certainly quite concerning. Such a major player in the heritage scene in trouble, that can't bode well. Considering the really tough financial climate, it is perhaps unsurprising.

Given it is my local heritage line, and one I grew up with and in May 2006 had my first ever experience driving a train (D1013 from Bridgnorth to Highley, in case you're wondering), I am certainly going to donate to the SVR. I just don't know how much I can give yet, things are very tight here as I've had an expensive few weeks. I'm still putting off expensive repairs to one of my cycles, which has been waiting months for them, and they're going to cost me a fair chunk of money. So much so that I might have to part ways with it, and I'm not too keen on that.

Therefore, I'm going to try and chuck in some amount of donation to the SVR but I have some calculations to do. Doing my bit to keeping the line going for future generations to enjoy seems like a much more useful thing to do than to fix up my cycle! If I can move things around enough, I might even find myself attending the upcoming gala on Sunday!

 

[bramling]

Reading the Severn Valley News a little while ago, the motive power manager (I think) said something on the lines of 'enthusiasts who visit for steam haulage are declining in number and the general public are happy to have diesel hauled trains'

Presumably as part of that policy the standard timetable is now one steam loco and two diesel ones each making two return trips.

Now I won't argue about the first premise; but are family visitors really happy with diesels? Just that a lot of families visiting have children that seem to be quite into 'Thomas the Tank Engine' and the parents (who obviously too young to remember B.R. steam) do seem to take an interest in the steam loco. too. Will families still make their way to the front of then train at a terminus to watch the engine hook on to the train if it's a diesel? And look into the cab - obviously there won't see a fire?

Now I personally have no idea one way or the other, but why go to a heritage railway for a diesel train ride slowly through pleasant but not great scenery when there's the national network? I just think they may be shooting themselves in the foot because I suspect that it's not only the enthusiast that comes for the steam engine.

As I said, no opnioneither way, just think it's an interesting question.

I think it’s certainly the case that *some* people are put off by diesel, but for every general public who is there may well be an enthusiast into diesel who takes their place. I’d imagine this trend will only continue as time goes on and less of the population is old enough to have lived with mainline steam.

My view is that diesel can be made to work well, but railways will need to make the overall experience worthwhile. Actively marketing the history of diesel locos would be a start - there’s certainly a perception among some of the public that they’re somehow being shortchanged when a diesel appears, rather than it actively being marketed as part of the experience. Especially as many diesels are almost as old as steam locos.

I write this as someone who has been to two preserved railways in the last week or so, in both cases our visit was primarily *because* they were running diesel days.

 

[railfan99]

Perhaps a matter of opinion, determined by interest in/enthusiasm for railways and steam locos, however the fact that the SVR now needs £1.5m to keep going suggests that even that fare does not come near covering the cost of the operation.

Could it not also suggest that the SVR has capital expenditure requirements?

In my country, I own shares in many listed companies. Occasionally, even though well run and profitable, some have capital expenditure needs that require further capital raising.

 

[Bertie the bus]

My view is that diesel can be made to work well, but railways will need to make the overall experience worthwhile. Actively marketing the history of diesel locos would be a start - there’s certainly a perception among some of the public that they’re somehow being shortchanged when a diesel appears, rather than it actively being marketed as part of the experience. Especially as many diesels are almost as old as steam locos.

Market it as much as you like but it isn't an experience most of the general public want. Telling prospective customers what they want instead of providing what they actually want is not a good business model, rarely ends well and probably goes a long way towards explaining why the SVR are in the sad situation they finds themselves.

 

[Titfield]

Market it as much as you like but it isn't an experience most of the general public want. Telling prospective customers what they want instead of providing what they actually want is not a good business model, rarely ends well and probably goes a long way towards explaining why the SVR are in the sad situation they finds themselves.

The crucial points are not whether the general public like or dislike heritage diesels but
(1) how many of them will be prepared to pay for a heritage diesel train ride in the future.
(2) how many of them will become volunteers on a (possibly predominantly) diesel heritage railway in the future
(3) how many of them will leave legacies to such an organisation

My feeling is that some will but I fear that the numbers will just not be enough.

And of course I am assuming there is no "backlash" against diesel in an all electric transport future.

One could of course draw parallels between the current predicament of heritage railways with the challenges faced by British Railways in the early 1960s and what happened next.,...

 

[Falcon1200]

Could it not also suggest that the SVR has capital expenditure requirements?

Perhaps, but as quoted in Post #1 'Leaders at the Severn Valley Railway have today launched a £1.5 million 'Survival Fund' appeal, after a "double whammy" of "escalating costs and lower revenue", which to me looks a different matter from capital expenditure?

 

[SLC001]

As the original poster, the reason I raised the issue is because I was brought up near to the SVR and have watched it expand over the years with great interest. It was the first preserved railway I ever visited. Consequently, I hold it in great affection.
Heritage railways like the SVR have a challenge (which has always been there and possibly ignored) which is basically to address the cultural change within society, the need to still be relevant to younger people and to compete in the expanding and competitive leisure market. I sympathise with them but are they the authors of their own demise?
Sad as their problems may be, at least these financial difficulties are now public but how can you have faith in a management that got the SVR into this state in the first place? Would I wish to bail them out without knowing where my money was going and what it would be used for in the future? I would wish to see a solid and realistic business plan with financial projections after the £1.5m has been spent. It is not as if it is a particular project I could subscribe to. Just what are the longer-term plans for the railway? How does the railway see itself in 10 to 20 years? Steam, diesel, modern traction? Raised in the late 1950s I am a fan of steam and frankly modern traction does nothing for me so you can see the problem right away. If the future is modern traction, count me out sort of thing. Of course, and not unreasonably, others think differently but whatever the SVR do they are going to alienate people, yet these plans and policies are essential to encourage contributions and reassure donors.
A lack of volunteers may be a problem, but I speak as someone who has recently retired and has no desire to go back to work. The job I did has changed. I cannot do with the hassle. There are too many rules preventing me from doing what I want to do. Teacher friends say they could never go back to teaching because they disagree with the way children are taught these days. We can all relate to that in our own jobs. With my spare time, I have found things to keep me busy such as grandchildren or other hobbies and interests – a narrowboat for example. Lack of childcare nationally means many retirees are now de facto child minders – and affordable!
For many a day out at the SVR is quite expensive yet there is (or was) much to see and so you want flexibility of choice on the day which may be dependent upon the vagaries of the British weather. If I went back, I guess I would need 2 days to explore the railway, a mid-week trip perhaps? One working steam engine would not really be what would suit me. I read that some heritage railways want you to prebook – not for me, but whether the SVR do or don’t is not so important as the fact I cannot be bothered with the hassle of finding out. I want an easy life now! Keep it simple. Heritage Railways need to stop introducing barriers that are convenient for them, but which discourage visitors. Customer friendliness and convenience for people of all ages needs to be at the forefront of everything the SVR do.
Is a heritage railway expensive? The cost-of-living crisis is very real but as a comparison we are National Trust members and recently took a friend for a 2-hour work around a pretty NT park. It cost her £18 for a nice walk through pleasant gardens but imho bears no comparison to say a day out at the SVR. Like the SVR, the National Trust is an organisation that relies more and more on volunteers just to keep costs under control. Everything is so expensive.
I wish the SVR well. Hard decisions need to be made, realistic plans made for the future. For me it is my narrowboat that will occupy my time and money!

 

[xotGD]

I might even find myself attending the upcoming gala on Sunday!

I would recommend exchanging your cash for a Day Rover, rather than just making a donation. That way, both parties benefit. They get the money, you get the thrash.

And once you are there the opportunity arises to spend a bit more in the cafés and shops.

I certainly prefer to buy things from charities I support, rather than simply donating.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Market it as much as you like but it isn't an experience most of the general public want. Telling prospective customers what they want instead of providing what they actually want is not a good business model, rarely ends well and probably goes a long way towards explaining why the SVR are in the sad situation they finds themselves.

But this apparent policy is carried out by professionals; the motive power manager I quoted earlier is, I'm pretty sure, salaried staff and the person at the top of S.V.R. (since departed for a better job) was on £90,000 p.a..

So they must know better than us amateurs.

 

[pdeaves]

I see the SVR chairman has retired (https://news.railbusinessdaily.com/mike-ball-retires-as-chairman-of-svr-holdings/). Pushed? Unrelated decision (he's not a youngster!)?

 

[12LDA28C]

I wonder if there has been a noticeable change in attendance for the real earning events, Thomas days and Santa Specials? Surely they’ll have more of a financial impact than any gala

I visited the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre at Quainton on Good Friday during their Thomas event (although I wasn't there for that myself). The large car park was full, cars were parked on verges, grass and so on, the place was rammed with people.

Also of note, and of much more interest to me was their huge secondhand book shop which housed the largest collection of railway books I've ever seen in a single location. Very impressive.

 

[Techniquest]

I would recommend exchanging your cash for a Day Rover, rather than just making a donation. That way, both parties benefit. They get the money, you get the thrash.

And once you are there the opportunity arises to spend a bit more in the cafés and shops.

I certainly prefer to buy things from charities I support, rather than simply donating.

Yes I was making similar observations since my post. If I'm going to put a day out on the SVR onto my credit card, as I'd have to do, then I'd have to make sure I get what I want out of it. Sunday timetables on the regular network don't make it too easy, given the first train from Hereford is at 1005, but having now checked there are some good options for getting back. £14.60 for a day return to Kidderminster, which is not too bad for the distance.

The SVR does have to compete with the weather though, and I'm trying to drive myself forward with some serious health and fitness goals at the moment. If the weather is on my side on Sunday, then I will be prioritising those. It is of course possible that I may be able to combine the passions, and I see I could make a good connection on some good quality GWR steam on my first available option. Hmm, the temptation is very real!

Of course, I'm not the only person who wants to prioritise doing things that are better for one's health over sitting on a train doing at the most 25mph, and that's where the average heritage railway will suffer. I can get to/from the SVR in a reasonably low-emissions manner (I don't have the strength to cycle Hereford to Kidderminster/Bewdley and back in one day, so I'd use the train and walk the other bits), but what I want these days is to combine my interest in trains with my passion for getting (and keeping!) fit and healthy. So I'd be looking at walks/rides I can do to/from the railway, and this is an area I'm sure the SVR could really go forwards in given its beautiful surroundings.

Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something obvious and this is already something the SVR are doing. Perhaps this is a sign I should be getting to it on Sunday and investigating it all. Something to ponder when I'm losing the plot at work later!

 

[Meerkat]

It would be interesting to see a 'normals' opinion poll on whether they need to see steam to make them turn up and pay money.
Diesels are of course pretty rare now, and are noisy and do run rounds etc, but do they really have the wow factor of a steam engine being so different to anything you see in normal life (a kid sees noisy diesels when the buses and lorries go by at home!).
I think an issue for HRs is that they struggle to avoid giving away so much product for free. Even if they can make people pay to get on site and the platforms they don't need to ride the train to watch the steam loco - in fact I am not sure what the attraction of the actual ride is if it just goes to nowhere and back! And then youtube is full of videos of steam locos so you dont have to visit to get a lot of the experience, or you can stand in a field/roadside to watch the trains go by.

Particularly for the lines in areas without mass tourism I think the future is for the lines to become visitor attractions with a railway attached - in the way garden centres have found a very successful model and the NT rinses the wealthier locals for repeat visits for teas/lunches/ice creams and shopping.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It would be interesting to see a 'normals' opinion poll on whether they need to see steam to make them turn up and pay money.
Diesels are of course pretty rare now, and are noisy and do run rounds etc, but do they really have the wow factor of a steam engine being so different to anything you see in normal life (a kid sees noisy diesels when the buses and lorries go by at home!).

Only enthusiasts care about how noisy diesels are. I have been on mainline stations where things like 37s and Deltics have hammered through making one hell of a racket and no normal passenger has even looked up from their phone. I’ve also been on stations where there has been a stationary steam loco and virtually everybody on the station, young, middle aged and old, has got their phone out to take a photo or video.

There is a romance about steam that the public buy into and that is never going to be replicated with diesels.