Heritage railway financial problems.

[Titfield]

There is a romance about steam that the public buy into and that is never going to be replicated with diesels.

Beautifully encapsulates why Heritage Railways have to focus on steam!

 

[etr221]

Something I read elsewhere suggested that the SVR had 11 (!) full time managers on over £50k p.a. - which seems a lot, and not helpful financially...

More generally, a lot of this (financial, etc.) sort of problem on 'preserved' railways is the gap, and difference, between a commercial tourist operation (with fully paid staff), and, as I've seen it put, 'some old men [enthusiast volunteers] playing with their train set' - and how to bridge the gap and handle the difference, balancing paid employees and volunteers, and the desires of enthusiasts (who are the ones who will put hands in pockets for appeals) and ordinary grockles who are just after a good day out (but for whom steam is the USP... - even if they think there are only three steam locos: Flying Scotsman, Thomas and the other one)

 

[John Luxton]

Market it as much as you like but it isn't an experience most of the general public want. Telling prospective customers what they want instead of providing what they actually want is not a good business model, rarely ends well and probably goes a long way towards explaining why the SVR are in the sad situation they finds themselves.

Llangollen appear to be making diesels work well. They have more diesels than steam and have been able to navigate their way through some severe financial problems. People travel on heritage railways for all sorts of reasons and the motive power is not always the deciding factor.

First generation DMUs are so different to what is running today - in particular the approaching and receding views for a start which on a scenic line is a good selling point and many, though not all heritage lines are scenic.

Ok I am an enthusiast - but I generally choose to travel on a heritage line because its either easily accessible from home or from where I am staying when on holiday. What is making the train move is of low consideration. A visiting loco of interest from somewhere else in the country might make me more inclined to visit but diesel or steam it is immaterial.

When visiting the Llangollen line I have always tended to prefer to visit on DMU days and will quite happily trundle up and down the line more than once on a day rover.

I think the importance of steam is over egged. Heritage stock is now so different to what is encountered on the main network now to make it all a different experience to being sealed in an air conditioned carriage with power doors.

 

[43066]

Something I read elsewhere suggested that the SVR had 11 (!) full time managers on over £50k p.a. - which seems a lot, and not helpful financially...

More generally, a lot of this (financial, etc.) sort of problem on 'preserved' railways is the gap, and difference, between a commercial tourist operation (with fully paid staff), and, as I've seen it put, 'some old men [enthusiast volunteers] playing with their train set' - and how to bridge the gap and handle the difference, balancing paid employees and volunteers, and the desires of enthusiasts (who are the ones who will put hands in pockets for appeals) and ordinary grockles who are just after a good day out (but for whom steam is the USP... - even if they think there are only three steam locos: Flying Scotsman, Thomas and the other one)

Your first paragraph is presumably explained by the second. SVR has long been one of the most successful preserved operations.

Is several £50k+ roles really that surprising in a business that (from their website) turns over £8.5m+ per annum, has circa. 1,700 volunteers and entertains 250,000 visitors? You don’t get to that from a few old soaks playing trains of a weekend.

EDIT: here is a recent job advert.

Head Of Commercial And Visitor Experience | Severn Valley Railway

svr.co.uk

To work closely with the management team to create exciting, engaging and visitor friendly curated experiences with the SVR.

· To be the lead senior manager for our sales IT systems looking after pre-booked tickets and experiences and on-site EPOS systems across the railway.

· To manage the retail outlets across the railway and online, developing bespoke product and event merchandise alongside the Retail Manager. Setting annual budgets, reporting on sales and profit on a monthly basis.

· To manage the visitor services team ensuring the visitor enquiries (on site, telephone and online) are answered in a timely manner at all times.

· To manage the Engine House team ensuring everything is clean, presentable and in working order. Working closely with the Engine House Manager and SVR Charitable Trust to identify funding opportunities to invest in and develop the interpretation to improve the visitor experience.

· To manage the education department working with the Education Officer to develop appropriate workshop programs across the railway offering formal and informal learning to our visitors.

That sounds like a demanding role that would need to pay reasonably well in order to attract applicants capable of doing it to the required standard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

I think the importance of steam is over egged. Heritage stock is now so different to what is encountered on the main network now to make it all a different experience to being sealed in an air conditioned carriage with power doors.

It is going in this direction. Steam is still a big crowd puller but - to use an example I’m aware of - K&ESR were, by all accounts, pleasantly surprised by how popular their mk1 DMU remained during a period last year where steam was banned from the line.

 

[Titfield]

It is going in this direction. Steam is still a big crowd puller but - to use an example I’m aware of - K&ESR were, by all accounts, pleasantly surprised by how popular their mk1 DMU remained during a period last year where steam was banned from the line.

The challenge is you do not know how many people:
1) turned up and travelled because it was a DMU
2) turned up and travelled because they thought it would be steam but decided having got there they would still travel
3) turned up and decided not to travel because it was a dmu and and not steam.

Also we do not know to what extent potential passengers will be put off visiting a heritage railway because of their view of the environmental impact of steam or diesel.

I can imagine the Great British public acting in a somewhat contradictory manner accepting steam produced by coal but not accepting diesel.

 

[bramling]

The challenge is you do not know how many people:
1) turned up and travelled because it was a DMU
2) turned up and travelled because they thought it would be steam but decided having got there they would still travel
3) turned up and decided not to travel because it was a dmu and and not steam.

Also we do not know to what extent potential passengers will be put off visiting a heritage railway because of their view of the environmental impact of steam or diesel.

I can imagine the Great British public acting in a somewhat contradictory manner accepting steam produced by coal but not accepting diesel.

The whole thing is rather irrational really. Once on the train it makes little difference - in fact sometimes it has the advantage that a diesel loco doesn’t deposit soot everywhere. And it’s not like most non-enthusiasts spend the journey listening to the loco.

It seems that for many people they simply want to be able to say to themselves “look at me I went on a steam train today”. In the case of Mk1 carriages, which is of course what most railways operate, these are hardly unique to steam - indeed one could travel on something like a CIG on the mainline up until the 2000s and be travelling in essentially the same type of vehicle under electric power.

The one thing I have sensed is that people seem to feel shortchanged if a diesel loco appears, either planned or otherwise. Again this is somewhat irrational in my view.

I took a friend with no Railway interest at all on the NYMR a few years ago. At Grosmont the steam loco was detached and replaced with a diesel. Whilst he was initially a bit sceptical, by the time we reached Whitby he said he actually preferred the sound of the diesel, and found it every bit as atmospheric. We did have the slight advantage of being right at the front of the train.

 

[paul1609]

The challenge is you do not know how many people:
1) turned up and travelled because it was a DMU
2) turned up and travelled because they thought it would be steam but decided having got there they would still travel
3) turned up and decided not to travel because it was a dmu and and not steam.

Also we do not know to what extent potential passengers will be put off visiting a heritage railway because of their view of the environmental impact of steam or diesel.

I can imagine the Great British public acting in a somewhat contradictory manner accepting steam produced by coal but not accepting diesel.

It wasn't really like that we decided not to run steam because of the exceptionally dry and arid conditions in the Rother Valley running up to the traditional harvest season. In the high summer season we would have been traditionally running a set of up to 5 mk1s with special provision for the disabled and catering for 3 trains a day and a smaller train comprised of either victorian coaches or a smaller number of corridor coaches for 2 tpd.
At most times the stock ran as intended but hauled by a class 33 or 14 diesel vice a steam loco. On Sundays we run a Pullman Lunch time train that requires one of the locos so on these days and on days when the locos either had defects or maintenance we ran the class 108 DMU.

All prebooked customers and parties were advised of the change prior to the visit. Basically explaining that we were a rural railway running through an agricultural district and we couldn't afford to be writing off farmers crops at harvest time either financially or morally. We also pointed out that in our communities the fire brigade are basically also manned by volunteers who will be called away from their regular jobs even to deal with small line side fires and the effect that would have on the local economy.

Most of the people that i spoke to as guard on the train said that they would have preferred a steam engine but that given the state of the countryside they were passing through though it and understandable and sensible decision.

 

[Iskra]

Only enthusiasts care about how noisy diesels are. I have been on mainline stations where things like 37s and Deltics have hammered through making one hell of a racket and no normal passenger has even looked up from their phone. I’ve also been on stations where there has been a stationary steam loco and virtually everybody on the station, young, middle aged and old, has got their phone out to take a photo or video.

There is a romance about steam that the public buy into and that is never going to be replicated with diesels.

I’m not sure this is entirely true, I have been on plenty of diesel/electric railtours that have passed through stations, where (presumably) non-enthusiast passengers waiting for other trains have stopped what they were doing and taken photos/videos of the tour.

On a diesel railtour at York a non-enthusiast approached me to ask what was going on and if a steam locomotive was coming and that’s what everyone was waiting for. When I said ‘no it was two old diesels that were retiring.’ (DRS class 20’s) he still continued the conversation asking where the tour was going and what would happen to the locomotives after the tour had finished. There is general interest in old, loud and (seemingly) preferably colourfully-painted diesel and electric locomotives.

I would agree however that small children are captivated by steam locomotives, and that is clearly a key market for Heritage Railways, but that’s not the end of more general railway interest, plenty of non-enthusiasts that I converse with can name locomotive types such as Deltics and HST’s. And everyone knows pacers of course…

 

[43066]

Also we do not know to what extent potential passengers will be put off visiting a heritage railway because of their view of the environmental impact of steam or diesel.

Based on how keen people are to (say) still buy diesel/gas guzzling cars, or fly away on holiday, I’d suggest this is highly unlikely to be an issue, especially given the demographic who tend to visit heritage railways. This kind of thing has more prominence due to the antics of a subset of society who go around gluing themselves to motorways. Real people vote with their feet!

Most normal people aren’t die hard climate zealots, and you’d have to be a particularly brainless eco zealot to think that the negligible amount of CO2 produced by heritage railways is in any way consequential.

 

[30907]

The challenge is you do not know how many people:
1) turned up and travelled because it was a DMU
2) turned up and travelled because they thought it would be steam but decided having got there they would still travel
3) turned up and decided not to travel because it was a dmu and and not steam.

OK, anecdotal, and refers to a diesel loco not a DMU: on Tuesday the KWVR suffered a loco failure on shed, and steam was replaced by a class 20.
I was Travelling Ticket Collector on the hauled set (the 144 was out too) and met one party (1 Adult, 1 Child) who had asked for a refund on their pre-booked Rover and settled for a short return trip.
There may have been a few others who fell into group (3) but by definition I didn't see them.
As social media were updated quickly there may have been a handful in group (1) though no-one specifically said so.
Most fell into category (2) - understood why it had happened and travelled anyway.
There were plenty of people looking at the loco, being photographed by it etc.

The KWVR may be atypical - lots of our passengers visit Haworth during the day, others walk part of the route or even use it to begin/end a longer journey.

 

[Titfield]

Based on how keen people are to (say) still buy diesel/gas guzzling cars, or fly away on holiday, I’d suggest this is highly unlikely to be an issue, especially given the demographic who tend to visit heritage railways. This kind of thing has more prominence due to the antics of a subset of society who go around gluing themselves to motorways. Real people vote with their feet!

Most normal people aren’t die hard climate zealots, and you’d have to be a particularly brainless eco zealot to think that the negligible amount of CO2 produced by heritage railways is in any way consequential.

I do not doubt for one moment that the amount of CO2 produced by heritage railways is negligible (see for example the House of Commons Select Report) however Heritage Railways may wish to bear in mind that:

(1) It may become more of an issue as time goes by especially once new build ICE powered road vehicles are no longer available.

(2) Funding bodies may decide not to award grants to organisations who do not "offset" environmental impacts.

(3) Flying on fossil fuel powered aircraft may well be one activity that remains "acceptable" because there is no realistic alternative (yet) but other activities may be viewed differently.

OK, anecdotal, and refers to a diesel loco not a DMU: on Tuesday the KWVR suffered a loco failure on shed, and steam was replaced by a class 20.
I was Travelling Ticket Collector on the hauled set (the 144 was out too) and met one party (1 Adult, 1 Child) who had asked for a refund on their pre-booked Rover and settled for a short return trip.
There may have been a few others who fell into group (3) but by definition I didn't see them.
As social media were updated quickly there may have been a handful in group (1) though no-one specifically said so.
Most fell into category (2) - understood why it had happened and travelled anyway.
There were plenty of people looking at the loco, being photographed by it etc.

The KWVR may be atypical - lots of our passengers visit Haworth during the day, others walk part of the route or even use it to begin/end a longer journey.

Agreed but as I said no one really knows. Often changes in trends in consumer behaviour do not become known / obvious for some time and that may mean that it can be a long way back to counter the change by the time its cause becomes known.

 

[D6130]

I've noticed trains on the route seem to be very full even in the depths of winter, and very few people seemed to be enthusiasts.

I think that the real ale buffet may have a lot to do with that!

 

[Titfield]

I think that the real ale buffet may have a lot to do with that!

A good example though of providing a product which attracts patronage from a group who may not have considered visiting a HR.

One could of course point out that the Titfield Thunderbolt's main benefactor was someone else who enjoyed a tipple or two and whose reason for supporting the railway was the ability to get a drink earlier in the day than from static licensed premises.

 

[Bertie the bus]

On a diesel railtour at York a non-enthusiast approached me to ask what was going on and if a steam locomotive was coming and that’s what everyone was waiting for. When I said ‘no it was two old diesels that were retiring.’ (DRS class 20’s) he still continued the conversation asking where the tour was going and what would happen to the locomotives after the tour had finished. There is general interest in old, loud and (seemingly) preferably colourfully-painted diesel and electric locomotives.

No there isn't. There are the odd few normals who when you tell them you are not waiting for a steam train carry on the conversation but the vast majority just say OK and carry on walking or start telling you about when they last saw a steam train on the line. There most definitely isn't a general interest among the general public for loud diesels.

 

[Llanigraham]

Myself and 2 ex-railwaymen friends enjoy a day out on trains. Generally we head for the narrow gauge of Wales, but occasionally a bit further west. Certainly on our last trip on the Dean Forest we had a choice of what to ride and chose the DMU. It brought back the joy of sitting behind the driver and seeing where we were going.
Our trips out are to have a ride on a TRAIN and we aren't that too bothered what's pulling us, and to have a good lunch at some time during the trip.

 

[stuu]

I would have to agree with the idea that steam is the big selling point for most people. As it was eloquently put earlier in the thread about there being a romance to steam which diesel doesn't have. I do fear for the future of some of the longer lines, the costs are only going one way and people are looking for value for money. My local preserved line wants £75 for a family ticket, once you add in a few snacks and drinks or the odd souvenir and that's easily a £100 day out. Problematic in my opinion

 

[Titfield]

I would have to agree with the idea that steam is the big selling point for most people. As it was eloquently put earlier in the thread about there being a romance to steam which diesel doesn't have. I do fear for the future of some of the longer lines, the costs are only going one way and people are looking for value for money. My local preserved line wants £75 for a family ticket, once you add in a few snacks and drinks or the odd souvenir and that's easily a £100 day out. Problematic in my opinion

Many families would look at what £100 would get them elsewhere and then make a value judgement.

Some families of my acquaintance have bought National Trust membership which seems expensive but if you use it enough- especially in some areas the free parking - it can work out as good value for money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

Myself and 2 ex-railwaymen friends enjoy a day out on trains. Generally we head for the narrow gauge of Wales, but occasionally a bit further west. Certainly on our last trip on the Dean Forest we had a choice of what to ride and chose the DMU. It brought back the joy of sitting behind the driver and seeing where we were going.
Our trips out are to have a ride on a TRAIN and we aren't that too bothered what's pulling us, and to have a good lunch at some time during the trip.

Yes but your statements show your predisposition to having a rail based experience. IMHO that puts you in the 5-10% bracket and not the 90%+ bracket.

Obviously that is absolutely fine ( I put myself in that category too) but given the high fixed costs of heritage railways it is a "bums on seats" financial model they need to be working towards.

 

[Parham Wood]

The SVR is particularly exposed to the effects of flooding and river erosion affect its structures and track bed such as the 2007 damage and the 2022 embankment slip. There is always a potential high cost exposure as a result and presumably long term costs on its books. The SVR site in January posted a statement about the coming challenges in 2023 and how they had planned for a near return to normal post COVID but have seen numbers drop and costs increase dramatically. The challenge in any business (preserved railways have to be run as a business nowadays) is to make its product appealing to its market place (quality and value for money/cost), keep its expenditure within forecast (and actual) revenue and to seek ways of expanding its customer base (what will bring more people in) or generating extra income from other sources (weddings, film location work etc). The problem for long railways and those with paid staff is how can costs be effectively reduced without changing/damaging the product which will result in a greater downturn of visitors? Of course know your customer comes into this. I wish the SVR every success in achieving profitability.

 

[John Luxton]

I would have to agree with the idea that steam is the big selling point for most people. As it was eloquently put earlier in the thread about there being a romance to steam which diesel doesn't have. I do fear for the future of some of the longer lines, the costs are only going one way and people are looking for value for money. My local preserved line wants £75 for a family ticket, once you add in a few snacks and drinks or the odd souvenir and that's easily a £100 day out. Problematic in my opinion

I think prices have to be put into perspective.

A heritage railway visit is still much cheaper than a rail tour. I went on my first loco hauled tour (diesel with a 40 and 47) for many a year back in September 2021 not long distance fairly local lines and it was £140 for one!

At random I have just found a Cambrian Coast Railtour - party of 4 £1,176 including meals and its fully booked none dining party of 4 £496.

The heritage line offering is a bargain, by comparison.

 

[stuu]

I think prices have to be put into perspective.

A heritage railway visit is still much cheaper than a rail tour. I went on my first loco hauled tour (diesel with a 40 and 47) for many a year back in September 2021 not long distance fairly local lines and it was £140 for one!

At random I have just found a Cambrian Coast Railtour - party of 4 £1,176 including meals and its fully booked none dining party of 4 £496.

The heritage line offering is a bargain, by comparison.

Those aren't going to be on the radar of the average family wanting a day out, so those aren't relevant comparators. Things like the local zoo are half the price of the train, or the castle/stately home is even less than half.

Obviously it depends on the breakdown of the customers, but I would have thought the majority of customers are casual visitors wanting a day out

 

[xotGD]

OK, anecdotal, and refers to a diesel loco not a DMU: on Tuesday the KWVR suffered a loco failure on shed, and steam was replaced by a class 20.
I was Travelling Ticket Collector on the hauled set (the 144 was out too) and met one party (1 Adult, 1 Child) who had asked for a refund on their pre-booked Rover and settled for a short return trip.
There may have been a few others who fell into group (3) but by definition I didn't see them.
As social media were updated quickly there may have been a handful in group (1) though no-one specifically said so.
Most fell into category (2) - understood why it had happened and travelled anyway.
There were plenty of people looking at the loco, being photographed by it etc.

The KWVR may be atypical - lots of our passengers visit Haworth during the day, others walk part of the route or even use it to begin/end a longer journey.

Last Friday there were certainly a number of visitors who were there specifically because D0226 was operating the non-steam diagram. Not a huge number, but an incremental increase over the numbers who came for steam or just a day out.

Appealing to multiple markets simultaneously is important.

 

[railfan99]

What is the policy of your National Lottery at present in relation to giving grants?

During COVID some heritage railways received goodly amounts of GBP.

Are applications open for further funding?

 

[6Gman]

Those aren't going to be on the radar of the average family wanting a day out, so those aren't relevant comparators. Things like the local zoo are half the price of the train, or the castle/stately home is even less than half.

Obviously it depends on the breakdown of the customers, but I would have thought the majority of customers are casual visitors wanting a day out

I think this hits the nail on the head.

Most visitors to "leisure attractions" are family groups wanting "a day out".

I had an interesting chat with the Director of a leading zoo a few years ago when he defined their key market as three generation family parties, with at least one child under 12 (the grandparents were important as they would indulge the children in the gift shop in a way parents would not). He was always happy to see keen zoo nerds (like me) but we would never have kept the place open! It might not be quite as marked on heritage railways (there are more railway enthusiasts than zoo enthusiasts) but the principle is the same.

And whether it's a railway, a zoo, a castle, a garden centre or a stately home, theme park or amusement park parents will make a judgement of cost:enjoyment when choosing where to go.

 

[nanstallon]

Being a branch line enthusiast, I don't mind the 25 mph speed restriction on heritage lines. In fact, the slower the better from the point of view of enjoying the view and the wildlife. The Talyllyn Rly is very friendly, and seems set on giving customers a good day out while preserving its authenticity, it is my favourite, and I shall never forget watching a red kite from the train for several minutes. But if your interest is in express locos and their performance, you are probably better off travelling on a main line steam special - if you can afford the prices these days. Giving my age away, I recall paying a fiver for a special train ride in the Seventies. I was paid £2K a year then, and when I retired in 2012 i was on £42K doing a more responsible job. A ride on a special train now costs about £120 to £165 (I never went in for the Premier Dining seats!), so riding on enthusiast main line specials has gone up a little more than wage levels but not dramatically so. I recall paying about 50p for a day return over the 6-7 mile long South Devon Rly (then called the Dart Valley Rly) in my youth, and it now costs £18 for a day return - an increase which is way ahead of wage rises over the years. Perhaps heritage railways are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market?

 

[bramling]

Those aren't going to be on the radar of the average family wanting a day out, so those aren't relevant comparators. Things like the local zoo are half the price of the train, or the castle/stately home is even less than half.

Not only that, but it’s possible to go for a day out walking something like the Monsal Trail essentially for free.

Another factor is that many people’s idea of a day out seems to have been debased by Covid. It now seems that all people essentially want to do is play. Generally more serious people, who actually have an interest in what they’re going to see, will try and turn up on non-school-holiday weekday as far as possible. Many heritage railways tend not to run on such days.

 

[eldomtom2]

My view is that diesel can be made to work well, but railways will need to make the overall experience worthwhile. Actively marketing the history of diesel locos would be a start - there’s certainly a perception among some of the public that they’re somehow being shortchanged when a diesel appears, rather than it actively being marketed as part of the experience. Especially as many diesels are almost as old as steam locos.

I think something like a first gen DMU has obviously marketable elements to the general public like being able to look out the front. A diesel loco, less so.

 

[nanstallon]

I think something like a first gen DMU has obviously marketable elements to the general public like being able to look out the front. A diesel loco, less so.

Agreed. I often seek out a dmu journey in preference to steam, partly for a change and partly for the view down the track.. On the West Somerset Railway, I saw a fox on the line, and I was amazed at the rabbit population to be seen on the track of the Wensleydale Railway rom the front of a dmu.

 

[railfan99]

I think something like a first gen DMU has obviously marketable elements to the general public like being able to look out the front. A diesel loco, less so.

I agree. Being from overseas, I was slightly disappointed to have a diesel-hauled train on the Llangollen Railway, not a DMU that I enjoy more, having fading memories of travelling on these in regular service on the Cornish main line in about 1993.

Llangollen was time consuming to reach from Preston, Lancs: train to Warrington Bank Quay then to Ruabon and double deck Arriva bus beyond.

In contrast, on what I thought would be the boring, largely flat North Norfolk Railway, I had an historic GER loco and then a terrific DMU where I could indeed sit in the 'view seat' as we call railcars/rail motors with these in Oz.

Despite Llangollen having arguably better scenery (riverside running, and a wonderful termini), NNR won out in my book.

However it was pleasing both were well patronised.

 

[HOOVER29]

The key question for me is why havevisitor numbers dropped by a third?

If I am to give them some money I want to know if they have any plans to address this drop in numbers as I fear that in another year they could be in the same situation asking for money again

Maybe they need to spend their hard earned on more important things like food, gas & electricity bills which have all gone through the roof.

For me to enjoy a day at the SVR it’ll cost, with admission, food & travel around £60.
I used to go quite a bit but just can’t afford it now.

Therefore unfortunately the preservation scene suffers.

 

[Titfield]

Maybe they need to spend their hard earned on more important things like food, gas & electricity bills which have all gone through the roof.

For me to enjoy a day at the SVR it’ll cost, with admission, food & travel around £60.
I used to go quite a bit but just can’t afford it now.

Therefore unfortunately the preservation scene suffers.

Yes but does it suffer overall?

If money is "tight" does that mean that some of, for want of a better word, "the well off" trade down, so rather than having two foreign holidays per year instead have one foreign holiday and one minibreak in the UK?

You may well argue that there are more "less well off" than "well off" so overall the UK market suffers but I dont think I have seen any data to suggest that conclusively this is indeed the case.

Perhaps the problem may be more to do with CPVID having dampened down the habit of going for "a day out".

I dont think anyone really knows but for HRs to survive I think they need to up their game as so many other tourist attractions appear to have done so.