Heritage railway financial problems.

[Flying Phil]

Despite the very difficult times that we are all suffering, there are still more heritage railways actively expanding. We know that the fares charged do not cover the running costs but the difference is made up from grants, donations and legacies. We are told that there are fewer volunteers, yet more people will be leading an active retirement than ever before.
I am optimistic that we will still be able to enjoy our heritage railways for many years to come.

 

[railfan99]

A walk up "all line" (round trip) ticket on the East Lancs Railway is £22.00 in 2023, or £24.00 for a multi-trip "Day Rover".

A single, over just the Northern half of the line, i.e. from Ramsbottom to Rawtenstall, is £12.00. Is this particularly good value for the money or has it been priced that way to make the higher priced day tickets seem better value?

This is common practice for heritage railways worldwide.

What was the most well patronised heritage railway in the world pre-COVID (numbers have since dropped, so I lack current information), Puffing Billy between Belgrave-Lakeside-Gembrook in my Australian state, has alwatys had higher fares per kilometre for singles and shorter return journeys such as Belgrave to Menzies Creek that used to carry a lot of international tourists on road coach day tours.

It is what you say but probably also recognition that fixed costs are high.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2023 ==

I heard a rumour, which turned out correct, about Severn Valley finances well over twelve months ago. Similarly, I heard last week of another prominent line with large financial problems.

Are you able to name the second one?

 

[778]

This is common practice for heritage railways worldwide.

What was the most well patronised heritage railway in the world pre-COVID (numbers have since dropped, so I lack current information), Puffing Billy between Belgrave-Lakeside-Gembrook in my Australian state, has alwatys had higher fares per kilometre for singles and shorter return journeys such as Belgrave to Menzies Creek that used to carry a lot of international tourists on road coach day tours.

It is what you say but probably also recognition that fixed costs are high.

Are Australian and New Zealand heritage railways having problems like some of the UK ones are? Covid would have caused an impact, but unlike the British or European heritage railways, they would not have been affected by the war in Ukraine.

 

[Gloster]

Despite the very difficult times that we are all suffering, there are still more heritage railways actively expanding. We know that the fares charged do not cover the running costs but the difference is made up from grants, donations and legacies. We are told that there are fewer volunteers, yet more people will be leading an active retirement than ever before.
I am optimistic that we will still be able to enjoy our heritage railways for many years to come.

I have banged on about my opinion on this before. There may well be more people leading an active retirement, but will they be steam, or even railway, enthusiasts? Those who do remember steam clearly and for whom it became a lifelong hobby are reaching or past the age of active participation in the heritage sector, particularly railways which requires a certain level of good health. Even those whose interest came from diesels are beginning to thin out, and there were always fewer of them (though still many). There will always be some, possibly many, volunteers, but the numbers will be smaller. The same also goes for the customers.

Right. That is this month’s instalment of my regular rant.

 

[bramling]

Actually, I said ''bounced back''. Two lines in this category are Dartmouth and Isle of Wight The latter had the most lucrative two years ever following lockdown.
Of course what the future may hold is surmise.

I wouldn’t say this is necessarily a surprise, with the focus on U.K. holidays over the last couple of years. It will be interesting to see if this is sustained this year. I have a suspicion it might not. Anecdotally, I’m finding hotels *much* easier to book this year, which tells its own story. I suppose on the flip side of the coin there may be some rebound in foreign holidaymakers, but would they choose the Isle of Wight?!

More generally, I do think the whole pre-book “experience” model is likely to be responsible for some of this. It will have put many people off, especially where the quality of experience hasn’t lived up to the price paid. Speaking personally, I will pay the high prices if I get something really special in return. I won’t if I don’t. Paying £90 for half an hour stuck in a compartment with a load of geriatrics talking about their most recent NHS experience isn’t an experience I’d be likely to repeat!

 

[John R]

We would love to pay a return visit to the Welsh Highland Railway, but the packaging up of the trains into “experiences” together with the steep cost (£62 each for the full length) put me off. A more affordable price, together with the ability to break the journey at Beddgelert would have resulted in a different decision.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have banged on about my opinion on this before. There may well be more people leading an active retirement, but will they be steam, or even railway, enthusiasts? Those who do remember steam clearly and for whom it became a lifelong hobby are reaching or past the age of active participation in the heritage sector, particularly railways which requires a certain level of good health. Even those whose interest came from diesels are beginning to thin out, and there were always fewer of them (though still many). There will always be some, possibly many, volunteers, but the numbers will be smaller. The same also goes for the customers.

Right. That is this month’s instalment of my regular rant.

I am personally at my heritage railway not finding this. What I am finding is volunteers now cannot commit as much time as their predecessors, so each volunteer is replaced but not in their time.

 

[railfan99]

Are Australian and New Zealand heritage railways having problems like some of the UK ones are? Covid would have caused an impact, but unlike the British or European heritage railways, they would not have been affected by the war in Ukraine.

I am a member of Castlemaine and Maldon Railway, a broad gauge (1600mm) heritage railway in Victoria, Australia that has a usable connection to what the previously government-owned Victorian Railways always called the 'Main Line', the Melbourne-Bendigo railway opened in 1862. As you can see, no passenger trains run on the branch in February, the last month of summer due to fire risk (little or none in 2023!) and kids having gone back to school after Christmas holidays. It lacks a regular operating steam loco (unhelpful to patronage) and fares have risen, but its newsletter has so far not mentioned finances being a problem (which is not to say it isn't):

| Victorian Goldfields Railway

Heritage steam train linking the historic towns of Castlemaine and Maldon in Central Victoria.

www.vgr.com.au

In Oz, while interest rates have risen (and will further) and inflation is a problem, so far most continue to spend on travel and entertainment: if you can believe media, people prefer to cut back on 'branded' supermarket goods and buy cheaper private label products. NZ has had higher increases in interest rates than Oz and that much smaller island's economy (lacking Oz's mineral wealth from coal and iron ore) is allegedly in far poorer shape, but no reason for complacency in Australia.

Puffing Billy in hills 40km from Melbourne has had a large drop in patronage but following a scandal (out of scope for here) the state government stepped in, sacked the Board and key others and appears to be subsidising it. A large number of volunteers declined to continue after the government changes:

Official site for Puffing Billy Railway - Melbourne Family Attraction

Australia’s premier preserved steam railway, Puffing Billy, travels daily (except Christmas Day) through Melbourne’s Dandenong Ranges. BOOKINGS ESSENTIAL.

puffingbilly.com.au

The Rail Transport Museum in New South Wales, 85km south of Sydney at Thirlmere (and its main line tours) seem to be doing OK:

Events and Museums | Transport Heritage NSW

Step aboard a range of events and experiences at the NSW Rail Museum, Blue Mountains Locomotive Depot, and across NSW with Transport Heritage NSW

www.thnsw.com.au

From Melbourne, Steamrail Victoria has a fair number of tours on the diminished broad gauge network (though small in comparison to your Railway Touring Company, Steam Dreams, Saphos Trains, Vintage Trains and so on):

Upcoming Tours | Steamrail Victoria

View our upcoming steam & diesel hauled day tours and shuttles.

www.steamrail.com.au

 

[Titfield]

I am personally at my heritage railway not finding this. What I am finding is volunteers now cannot commit as much time as their predecessors, so each volunteer is replaced but not in their time.

Yes that is my understanding of many volunteer organisations not just heritage railways. COVID has caused a great many people to reconsider their priorities and how they spend their time, their work, their leisure and their money.

 

[778]

I am a member of Castlemaine and Maldon Railway, a broad gauge (1600mm) heritage railway in Victoria, Australia that has a usable connection to what the previously government-owned Victorian Railways always called the 'Main Line', the Melbourne-Bendigo railway opened in 1862. As you can see, no passenger trains run on the branch in February, the last month of summer due to fire risk (little or none in 2023!) and kids having gone back to school after Christmas holidays. It lacks a regular operating steam loco (unhelpful to patronage) and fares have risen, but its newsletter has so far not mentioned finances being a problem (which is not to say it isn't):

| Victorian Goldfields Railway

Heritage steam train linking the historic towns of Castlemaine and Maldon in Central Victoria.

www.vgr.com.au

In Oz, while interest rates have risen (and will further) and inflation is a problem, but so far most continue to spend on travel and entertainment: if you can believe media, people prefer to cut back on 'branded' supermarket goods and buy cheaper private label products. NZ has had higher increases in interest rates than Oz and that much smaller island's economy (lacking Oz's mineral wealth from coal and iron ore) is allegedly in far poorer shape, but no reason for complacency in Australia.

Puffing Billy in hills 40km from Melbourne has had a large drop in patronage but following a scandal (out of scope for here) the state government stepped in, sacked the Board and key others and appears to be subsidising it. A large number of volunteers declined to continue after the government changes:

Official site for Puffing Billy Railway - Melbourne Family Attraction

Australia’s premier preserved steam railway, Puffing Billy, travels daily (except Christmas Day) through Melbourne’s Dandenong Ranges. BOOKINGS ESSENTIAL.

puffingbilly.com.au

The Rail Transport Museum in New South Wales, 85km south of Sydney at Thirlmere (and its main line tours) seem to be doing OK:

Events and Museums | Transport Heritage NSW

Step aboard a range of events and experiences at the NSW Rail Museum, Blue Mountains Locomotive Depot, and across NSW with Transport Heritage NSW

www.thnsw.com.au

From Melbourne, Steamrail Victoria has a fair number of tours on the diminished broad gauge network (though small in comparison to your Railway Touring Company, Steam Dreams, Saphos Trains, Vintage Trains and so on):

Upcoming Tours | Steamrail Victoria

View our upcoming steam & diesel hauled day tours and shuttles.

www.steamrail.com.au

Has the zig zag railway started running again? I know they have had been closed for a long time (bushfires etc).

 

[railfan99]

During COVID-19, the National Lottery gave quite a few heritage railways substantial grants.

Is this unlikely, or less likely, now even though media on the other side of the world keeps suggesting "Uk is in recession"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2023 ==

Has the zig zag railway started running again? I know they have had been closed for a long time (bushfires etc).

Media and that railway's website don't give a specific date but this is from February 2023:

"The historic Zig Zag Railway is on the cusp of reopening ahead of winter after bushfires, floods and vandalism closed it down more than a decade ago..."

(Australian winter is 1 June to 31 August, so perhaps it might reopen in May if it has been reaccredited).

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes that is my understanding of many volunteer organisations not just heritage railways. COVID has caused a great many people to reconsider their priorities and how they spend their time, their work, their leisure and their money.

I agree.
I was a volunteer on a local NG line and know that they have lost volunteers for various reasons, and I've heard similar comments from another local NG line.
I volunteer with the Welsh Ambulance Service doing patient transport and they are short of volunteer drivers.
I'm Chair of the Caravaning group of a large national motorclub and we are finding it difficult getting members who are willing to run meets.
I'm a car rally safety official and many rallies are finding it difficult to get marshals.
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

 

[birchesgreen]

Despite the very difficult times that we are all suffering, there are still more heritage railways actively expanding. We know that the fares charged do not cover the running costs but the difference is made up from grants, donations and legacies. We are told that there are fewer volunteers, yet more people will be leading an active retirement than ever before.

Will they, the government want them to get back to work.

re: SVR, what are their plans to try and improve their financial position? Also, have they overextended themselves with the various new projects over the last few years?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Will they, the government want them to get back to work.

re: SVR, what are their plans to try and improve their financial position? Also, have they overextended themselves with the various new projects over the last few years?

They wouldn't be alone.

 

[Sm5]

Maybe the offerings are becoming a little stale and interest is waning ?

I went to some fantastic steam galas a decade plus ago…, sometimes 10+ locos in steam, or events with large presence of mainline steam.

The mainline steam was impressive, imagine 4 steam hauled railtours around London in a single day, including 2 running in paths one behind the other, steam banking at Victoria not just once, but twice in 1 week.. double heading, tank engines, railmotor etc…

roll forwards today, Ive not seen anything like it for a few years now. The mainline scene too has become a rich boys playground, for operators and passengers. The volume / variety has considerably shrunk, including next to nothing below a class 5.

As overhauls are a 10 year thing, so this declining phase is emerging now, has its roots going back a decade. The obvious one I can put my finger on is lottery funding in the run upto Olympics dissapearing, 2008 Credit Crunch and Austerity that followed.

Mainline steam has been in decline since c2011, fell considerably after wootton bassett and became a purely commercial rather than an enthusiast run business at that point.
Several locos retreated from the mainline to preserved railways and eeked out their ticket and joined the queue, giving preserved lines a temporary boost.

As little has improved since the results are infront of us, the pot is dry, the repair pile is large and the goodwill and volunteers who both fixed it and funded it are gone. So now were seeing preserved railways tail off as the commercial cash isnt there and the enthusiastic incentives & excitement are declining.

SVR used to have several mainline steam locos away on extended periods, 46443, 75069, 4930 and 7819 all at once at one point, and still supported a 5 in steam daily summer operation at home… I’d wager the FTE wage bill & headcount was much lower then too… yet the stock, line length and infrastructure was already in situe back then too.

Given the state of the country since 2016, by 2026 -2033 things could be in a very bad place.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

We need to remember that ''heritage" lines compete with other leisure attractions and that "normals far outnumber enthusiasts. Often I wonder how profitable galas are

 

[bramling]

We need to remember that ''heritage" lines compete with other leisure attractions and that "normals far outnumber enthusiasts. Often I wonder how profitable galas are

The other side of that coin is that enthusiasts, for all their faults, are a fairly steady stream of potential visitors - come rain or shine, come cost of living crisis or not. Some, albeit not all, preserved railways have spent the last 2-3 years seemingly doing everything possible to alienate this market, instead completely switching the modus operandi to suit grockle tourists, who by the looks of things are starting to dry up.

I suspect those railways in the most popular touristy areas may continue to do okay, albeit even they may find they have to find a way of dropping their prices, however it's clear others are going to struggle this year.

I remain of the view that what railways need to do is work on quality, which isn't necessarily something which is expensive to provide. Make sure there's ample capacity, try to give people the ability to get a compartment to themselves, staff who make visitors feel welcome, make some effort to run on time, etc.

 

[Titfield]

The other side of that coin is that enthusiasts, for all their faults, are a fairly steady stream of potential visitors - come rain or shine, come cost of living crisis or not. Some, albeit not all, preserved railways have spent the last 2-3 years seemingly doing everything possible to alienate this market, instead completely switching the modus operandi to suit grockle tourists, who by the looks of things are starting to dry up.

I suspect those railways in the most popular touristy areas may continue to do okay, albeit even they may find they have to find a way of dropping their prices, however it's clear others are going to struggle this year.

I remain of the view that what railways need to do is work on quality, which isn't necessarily something which is expensive to provide. Make sure there's ample capacity, try to give people the ability to get a compartment to themselves, staff who make visitors feel welcome, make some effort to run on time, etc.

I suspect that enthusiasts make up only 5% - 10% maximum of visitors to many of the larger (by passenger carrying) heritage railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2023 ==

We need to remember that ''heritage" lines compete with other leisure attractions and that "normals far outnumber enthusiasts. Often I wonder how profitable galas are

I have often suspected that many galas break even at best and often lose money. I find it difficult to believe that the extra passenger income outweighs hire fees, transportation costs, additional coal, lubricants and water consumed, marketing etc etc.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well i guess you could get rid of galas but that might mean the few opportunities for various enthusiast groups projects to see the light of day and get some line time may end and those people may simply walk away or not be attracted to the railway in the first place. Not everything can be measured purely in monetary terms.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Well i guess you could get rid of galas but that might mean the few opportunities for various enthusiast groups projects to see the light of day and get some line time may end and those people may simply walk away or not be attracted to the railway in the first place. Not everything can be measured purely in monetary terms.

without losses being stemmed, places would just go bust.

 

[paul1609]

I suspect that enthusiasts make up only 5% - 10% maximum of visitors to many of the larger (by passenger carrying) heritage railways.

If you exclude Galas its les than 5% at most railways.

 

[birchesgreen]

But a 5-10% that comes again and again compared to people who might come if they got nothing else to do that weekend? Yeah but i know its fashionable on here to spit on people who might be enthusiastic about something. We all smell as well.

 

[Ken H]

The other side of that coin is that enthusiasts, for all their faults, are a fairly steady stream of potential visitors - come rain or shine, come cost of living crisis or not. Some, albeit not all, preserved railways have spent the last 2-3 years seemingly doing everything possible to alienate this market, instead completely switching the modus operandi to suit grockle tourists, who by the looks of things are starting to dry up.

I suspect those railways in the most popular touristy areas may continue to do okay, albeit even they may find they have to find a way of dropping their prices, however it's clear others are going to struggle this year.

I remain of the view that what railways need to do is work on quality, which isn't necessarily something which is expensive to provide. Make sure there's ample capacity, try to give people the ability to get a compartment to themselves, staff who make visitors feel welcome, make some effort to run on time, etc.

What about the Keighley and Worth Valley? Not the prettiest but seems to get bums on seats. Spose Haworth is a draw.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

But a 5-10% that comes again and again compared to people who might come if they got nothing else to do that weekend? Yeah but i know its fashionable on here to spit on people who might be enthusiastic about something. We all smell as well.

It's still 5% just as the remainder is still 95%

 

[Flying Phil]

It's still 5% just as the remainder is still 95%

Yes, but if the enthusiast visits 10 or 20 times a year, they provide a Lot of the income. They will also be the ones making donations, legacies and many of them are also volunteering.

 

[Russel]

The key question for me is why havevisitor numbers dropped by a third?

The answer can be found on this page...

https://svr.co.uk/plan-your-visit/ticket-prices/

I was actually looking online on Easter Monday to plan a visit the next day, for the price of a freedom of the line ticket booked less than 3 days in advance, £27.50 (Not including the £15 in train fare to get to the SVR), I was able to book an advance return fare from Lichfield to Llandudno Junction and a North Wales 1Bws ticket for around £23 with a railcard...

£27.50 just didn't seem very good value for money to trundle through the pretty, but not very spectacular Worcestershire countryside at 25mph.

 

[STINT47]

I would tend to agree that ignoring and or alienating the enthusiast market is nor a good idea.

Enthusiasts may make up a small amount of overall visitors but we keep returning year after year. We also are the ones to make generous donations and give up our time.

Attracting families and coach parties etc is great and everyone should be made welcome but how many of these visitors will then donate to an appeal to repair a bridge etc?"how many will return to volunteer?

As other's have pointed out a lot of heritage railways finances are weak at best and rely on donations,legacies and volunteers to survive.

If a railway feels that it can manage without enthusiasts income, donations and labour then that's fine (the line at Paignton is successful doing this) but I cannot see this adding up or working out well for most lines.

 

[Meerkat]

Not sure about the comment on there being more active retirees.
The numbers retiring early on tasty DB pensions is reducing, people are retiring later with smaller pensions, grandparents are becoming daycare for grandkids, waiting lists for mobility issues are lengthening etc etc.
And presumably as the economy changes fewer of those retiring come from engineering backgrounds.
IMO there are too many lines and they are too long.

 

[12LDA28C]

Public transport has become traumatically unreliable, so people dont travel.

Maybe in your part of the world and more specifically TPE, this is not representative of rail travel nationwide especially since industrial action has ceased at least for the time being.

 

[Falcon1200]

£27.50 just didn't seem very good value for money to trundle through the pretty, but not very spectacular Worcestershire countryside at 25mph.

Perhaps a matter of opinion, determined by interest in/enthusiasm for railways and steam locos, however the fact that the SVR now needs £1.5m to keep going suggests that even that fare does not come near covering the cost of the operation.