Help With FPN?

[Haywain]

It might be otherwise if the captured transaction data not only included details of successfully concluded ticket sales but also details of transactions that had, for whatever reason, not resulted in a sale, but it appears from the PSL reasons given that no details of such failed or aborted transactions are transmitted.

They do record transactions that reach the payment stage and are not subsequently completed.

Nor does it appear that ticket machines log and transmit or retain information about faults that arise in the course of their operation that can subsequently be interrogated.

They certainly do record that.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

Hi Everyone,

Bad news, rejected again. The most frustrating part is the fact they state I could have got a promise to pay... even though I have a photo showing it is unavailable? I am quite furious. As it stands I think I am going to refuse to pay and hopefully it can be resolved in a court.

Also it mentioned Sheffield? The train was Fitzwilliam to Doncaster, how incompetant can you be?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2023 ==

I have contacted Transport Focus as per the bottom of the appeal, hopefully they can help. I am not sure if anyone has had any experience with them in the past? What a waste of time bothering to type out a response when they just appear to ignore it and then reference random stations? It's beyond belief

Sorry for the rant!

 

[MrJeeves]

The most frustrating part is the fact they state I could have got a promise to pay

"The machine displays a message that indicates Promise to Pay is not available"
"Promise to Pay was also available"

How incompetent...

 

[ConfusedNorth]

"The machine displays a message that indicates Promise to Pay is not available"
"Promise to Pay was also available"

How incompetent...

My personal favourite;

"you travelled from Fitzwilliam to Leeds."

"and as the Train Operating Company provided a method of ticket purchase at Sheffield"

A fantastic retort! It would have been even better if at any point I had travelled to / from Sheffield or was even in the same county

 

[Hadders]

The incompetence is breathtaking.

You must contact Transport Focus pointing out all of the errors as this is the next stage of the process.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My personal favourite;

"you travelled from Fitzwilliam to Leeds."

"and as the Train Operating Company provided a method of ticket purchase at Sheffield"

As, perhaps, is "The panel has considered your case with care"!

The incompetence is breathtaking.

Quite!

 

[ConfusedNorth]

The incompetence is breathtaking.

You must contact Transport Focus pointing out all of the errors as this is the next stage of the process.

I'll let you all know how I get on, I have just spoken to TF, and sent them an email with all my appeals / photo evidence etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2023 ==

As, perhaps, is "The panel has considered your case with care"!


Quite!

If it wasn't for this forum, I'd think I was going crazy! It seems everyone can see how absurd the penalty services are being apart from themselves!

There is so many issues with their response, the fact I highlight the Fitzwilliam signs are non compliant and their response is the ones in Sheffield are fine? Or they highlight I have a photo showing the promise to pay is unavailable, however I should have got one because they were available

At this point I am just ranting but I find the whole process infuriating, they would be better just canning the appeal process if the information you provide is irrelevant and they basically insinuate you're lying (you claim this but our records show the machine was fine). I would love to see what they expect for a successful appeal? A video of me holding the days newspaper while trying to get a ticket?

 

[John Palmer]

From 'Penalty Fares Guidleines 2018', page 14:

"The Final Stage Appeal panel is different from the previous two stages in that will be conducted by a panel of three members, where the majority decision will decide the outcome. This panel will be independent of any Operator or their affiliates and will not be part of the appeal providers’ corporate structures.

"To ensure this panel is independent, passenger groups will work with appeal providers to approve panel members and ensure they are trained and operate effectively. Any Final Stage Appeal panel should have involvement from passenger groups in ensuring they consider cases fairly.


"INFO BOX 10

"Members of the Final Appeals Panel will be agreed and appointed by the appeals body in consultation with London TravelWatch and Transport Focus as consultants, not directly employed by any organisation connected to a Penalty Fares Operator"

I suggest that Transport Focus should be invited to enquire into the composition of the final appeal panel in this case and establish:

(a) whether it comprised three members;
(b) whether its members were approved by one or more passenger groups;
(c) whether any of those members could be said to represent a passenger group;
(d) whether any of those members had prior involvement in the case at First or Second Stage Appeal;
(e) whether any member of the panel was, contrary to the Guidelines, 'directly employed by any organisation connected to a Penalty Fares Operator'; and
(f) whether and if so what training each panel member received in order to ensure that the panel considered the OP's case fairly.

On the face of it, the spurious reference to 'clear signs at Sheffield', the rejection without explanation of the OP's contention that a Promise to Pay facility was unavailable (flying in the face of photographic evidence from the OP to that effect) and the disregard of the operator's failure to follow the Regulations' requirements as to wording of relevant signage collectively suggest that in this case the Final Appeal Panel failed properly to discharge its function in accordance with the Guidelines. By extension these shortcomings might, in conjunction with the answers given to my checklist points (a) to (f), also promote an argument that the operator, at a time when the OP could appeal under Regulation 18 of the 2018 Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations, did 'not satisfy the appeals requirements' (Reg. 14(4)), the consequence then being that, under Regulation 14(2), the OP would not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2023 ==

A video of me holding the days newspaper while trying to get a ticket?

Was a time and datestamp embedded in your photograph? Can't see one in the picture posted, but presumably the device you used contains some record of when the picture was taken? I accept that the time and datestamps applied to files are open to manipulation, but how far is one expected to go to counter deliberate allegations that evidence has been falsified?

Presumably, as per previous discussion on this thread of what gets recorded by ticket machines, the operator's retort is going to be that an error such as that revealed by your photograph would have been logged and that there is no such log entry. Or that display of the 'Promise to Pay not available' message represented correct functioning of the machine!

 

[ConfusedNorth]

Was a time and datestamp embedded in your photograph? Can't see one in the picture posted, but presumably the device you used contains some record of when the picture was taken? I accept that the time and datestamps applied to files are open to manipulation, but how far is one expected to go to counter deliberate allegations that evidence has been falsified?

Presumably, as per previous discussion on this thread of what gets recorded by ticket machines, the operator's retort is going to be that an error such as that revealed by your photograph would have been logged and that there is no such log entry. Or that display of the 'Promise to Pay not available' message represented correct functioning of the machine!

I don't believe so, the original photo may have, but I believe the one I have now is a screenshot. As, I've attached it to 3 appeals, sent it to Transport Focus and my MP, I've had a few copies where I've sent it from my phone to PC and back etc, but I don't believe the one I have is the original, if that makes sense.

I will check though.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Everyone,

Bad news, rejected again. The most frustrating part is the fact they state I could have got a promise to pay... even though I have a photo showing it is unavailable? I am quite furious. As it stands I think I am going to refuse to pay and hopefully it can be resolved in a court.

Also it mentioned Sheffield? The train was Fitzwilliam to Doncaster, how incompetant can you be?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2023 ==

I have contacted Transport Focus as per the bottom of the appeal, hopefully they can help. I am not sure if anyone has had any experience with them in the past? What a waste of time bothering to type out a response when they just appear to ignore it and then reference random stations? It's beyond belief

Sorry for the rant!

It was some time ago but my experience with Passenger Focus was helpful. They seemed at least capable of reading and understanding my case at least.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

It was some time ago but my experience with Passenger Focus was helpful. They seemed at least capable of reading and understanding my case at least.

Hi again everyone,

Just wanted to give everyone an update in case anyone has a similar issue in the future and is reading this thread.

I emailed TF, all my photos and copies of my appeals and got this response;


‘Dear Mr Holloway,


Thank you for contacting us.



I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had to contact us due to your experience with Northern.



Please be advised, I have reviewed your case and can see that you and your partner were issued with a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) as you had travelled without a valid ticket. You state that the Ticket Vending Machine was not operational, and you were unable to locate a conductor. You were issued with a PFN upon your arrival at Leeds. I’m very sorry that this happened to you and your partner, I completely understand how frustrating this may have been.



A Penalty fare may be issued if a passenger is found to have boarded a train without a valid ticket and most railway operators use the same method which is signed off by the Department for Transport. It is unfortunate that those who intentionally evade the fare provide the same rationale for not having a ticket as honest passengers, such as yourself, who get caught up in the process. I’ve reviewed the correspondence from Penalty Services, and I note that they confirmed that there was no fault with the Ticket Vending Machine in question. Furthermore, I have looked on the Northern website which confirms there is a Ticket Office available as well.



We understand that incurring a penalty fare is both distressing and frustrating. Unfortunately, Transport Focus are not part of the penalty fare appeals process and therefore have not been given the authority to overturn the action being taken, suspend the action whilst you are in liaison with us or prevent additional administration charges being added. On behalf of passengers who come to us we will check that the correct processes have been followed, and if they haven’t, we will make challenges to the industry but ultimately have to accept the decision of the Independent Penalty Fare Appeal body whose responsibility it is to consider a penalty fare separately from the rail operator who issued it. On this occasion, the PFN was issued correctly as it was found that a train had been boarded but a ticket had not been purchased and therefore, we are unable to challenge this.



On behalf of Transport Focus, I’m sorry we are unable to secure a more favourable outcome on this occasion.



Kind regards

X’

I went back and responded;

‘Hi X,

I think there has some be some confusion, there is no ticket office at Fitzwilliam. There is one ticket machine, that was not working and I provided photo evidence of.

I also provided photo evidence of the signs at the station being non complaint.

Would thsi change the matter?

Kind regards,

Connor’

And finally got this reply today;

‘Dear Mr Holloway,


Thank you for your email.



The image of the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) you provided shows a message stating that Promise to Pay is unavailable. This doesn’t imply that the TVM was not selling tickets and as stated by Penalty Services; there were no reported faults with the machine. As previously mentioned, Transport Focus are not part of the penalty fare appeals process and therefore have not been given the authority to overturn the action being taken. As you had boarded the train without a ticket, the Penalty Fare Notice was issued correctly. I completely understand how disappointing this email may be, and I’m very sorry that we are unable to help on this occasion.



Kind regards,

X’


I don’t think there’s everything else to do on this, apart from wait for it to go to a court. I refuse to pay for something that was not my fault. I will update again if it gets to that stage. As always thank you all for your help throughout.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi again everyone,

Just wanted to give everyone an update in case anyone has a similar issue in the future and is reading this thread.

I emailed TF, all my photos and copies of my appeals and got this response;


‘Dear Mr Holloway,


Thank you for contacting us.



I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had to contact us due to your experience with Northern.



Please be advised, I have reviewed your case and can see that you and your partner were issued with a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) as you had travelled without a valid ticket. You state that the Ticket Vending Machine was not operational, and you were unable to locate a conductor. You were issued with a PFN upon your arrival at Leeds. I’m very sorry that this happened to you and your partner, I completely understand how frustrating this may have been.



A Penalty fare may be issued if a passenger is found to have boarded a train without a valid ticket and most railway operators use the same method which is signed off by the Department for Transport. It is unfortunate that those who intentionally evade the fare provide the same rationale for not having a ticket as honest passengers, such as yourself, who get caught up in the process. I’ve reviewed the correspondence from Penalty Services, and I note that they confirmed that there was no fault with the Ticket Vending Machine in question. Furthermore, I have looked on the Northern website which confirms there is a Ticket Office available as well.



We understand that incurring a penalty fare is both distressing and frustrating. Unfortunately, Transport Focus are not part of the penalty fare appeals process and therefore have not been given the authority to overturn the action being taken, suspend the action whilst you are in liaison with us or prevent additional administration charges being added. On behalf of passengers who come to us we will check that the correct processes have been followed, and if they haven’t, we will make challenges to the industry but ultimately have to accept the decision of the Independent Penalty Fare Appeal body whose responsibility it is to consider a penalty fare separately from the rail operator who issued it. On this occasion, the PFN was issued correctly as it was found that a train had been boarded but a ticket had not been purchased and therefore, we are unable to challenge this.



On behalf of Transport Focus, I’m sorry we are unable to secure a more favourable outcome on this occasion.



Kind regards

X’

I went back and responded;

‘Hi X,

I think there has some be some confusion, there is no ticket office at Fitzwilliam. There is one ticket machine, that was not working and I provided photo evidence of.

I also provided photo evidence of the signs at the station being non complaint.

Would thsi change the matter?

Kind regards,

Connor’

And finally got this reply today;

‘Dear Mr Holloway,


Thank you for your email.



The image of the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) you provided shows a message stating that Promise to Pay is unavailable. This doesn’t imply that the TVM was not selling tickets and as stated by Penalty Services; there were no reported faults with the machine. As previously mentioned, Transport Focus are not part of the penalty fare appeals process and therefore have not been given the authority to overturn the action being taken. As you had boarded the train without a ticket, the Penalty Fare Notice was issued correctly. I completely understand how disappointing this email may be, and I’m very sorry that we are unable to help on this occasion.



Kind regards,

X’


I don’t think there’s everything else to do on this, apart from wait for it to go to a court. I refuse to pay for something that was not my fault. I will update again if it gets to that stage. As always thank you all for your help throughout.

Thanks for update - really frustrating - not sure what you can otherwise do to prove the TVM was not working.

I can see more of these when the ticket office closures kick in (from other places of course)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the OP had wanted to pay by cash, wouldn't a Promise to Pay voucher invariably always be needed for journeys from Fitzwilliam? These reportedly couldn't be obtained, which Transport Focus have now acknowledged.

Seems utterly bizarre that the OP seemingly has proof of a non fully functioning TVM, which, despite its reported inability to issue Promise to Pay vouchers, is claimed otherwise to have been fully operational and still capable of issuing tickets.

 

[John Palmer]

You may wish to consider whether to make a complaint about the way in which Transport Focus itself has dealt with your complaint, as they have apparently turned a blind eye to the obvious shortcomings in the way in which the Final Appeals Panel dealt with your case. Don't know whether your exchanges with Transport Focus mentioned the points I set out in my previous post as matters TF should be invited to look into, but the Final Appeals Panel in your case seems to have been so determined to close their minds to the possibility that relevant facilities were unavailable as to cast doubt on their ability and readiness to have looked at your case fairly - and that is something to which passages I quoted from the Guidelines are apposite, in particular: "Any Final Stage Appeal panel should have involvement from passenger groups in ensuring they consider cases fairly."

Probably something of a forlorn hope to raise such a complaint, but details of how to do so are at https://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.n...omplaint-Handling-Procedure-November-2018.pdf.

If you decline to pay the penalty fare now that the appeal process has gone through its final stage, you may well find yourself faced with a prosecution under Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act 1889, notwithstanding that any such proseuction may well be unsustainable if defended. I hope you'll report details of further developments and any such prosecution so that further assistance can be offered here.

 

[ModernRailways]

It may be worthwhile contacting Northern directly with all the information you have supplied to this thread. It's quite clear cut but it would seem that the appeals process has let you down (as it does many other people). If someone at Northern can look over this and takes just a couple of minutes to look at the evidence then it should be a quickly closed pfn.
Not sure how they would respond, but it may be worth your while to email them the information, and then a quick phone call to nudge them into picking it up asap.

drpu@northernrailway.co.uk
01904 568181 and select option 5 (Monday to Friday 9am - 4pm)

The above details can be verified on the Northern website.

 

[furlong]

I wish I could say I was surprised by the outcome! I can only imagine how a court might respond if they pursue this any further. Part of the recent Penalty Fare increase should have been ploughed back into paying a legally qualified professional to advise the final appeals panels.

What has happened seems relevant to the current consultation on replacing ticket offices with machines and it could be offered as a case study to demand long-overdue new safeguards to protect honest passengers against being treated by the railway as fare evaders. Bring back the SRA which was the one body that genuinely understood how to plot a fair middle path between the two sets of demands!

 

[fandroid]

I think a RoR Act prosecution would be unlikely. The OP states that they went straight to the Excess Fares office. That doesn't demonstrate any intent to avoid payment, and the photo of the ticket machine confirms that too.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Can someone please clarify what options are now available to the railway? Are they able to bring a criminal prosecution - or is this the use of the appeal process against a penalty fare that blocks the raising of a prosecution?

Or would they be able to take action in the county court to recover the debt?

And does anyone have a view on the likelihood of the railway following through on whatever actions it can take?

I know that I'm asking this from the point of view of what the railway can do, but I hope it's obvious that this then gives us the range of possibilities that the OP has to consider when deciding their next step.

 

[fandroid]

I think a RoR Act prosecution would be unlikely. The OP states that they went straight to the Excess Fares office. That doesn't demonstrate any intent to avoid payment, and the photo of the ticket machine confirms that too.

I'm wrong about this. The new thread started by KirkstallOne demonstrates that Northern don't bother much about the niceties of the actual law

 

[island]

Can someone please clarify what options are now available to the railway? Are they able to bring a criminal prosecution - or is this the use of the appeal process against a penalty fare that blocks the raising of a prosecution?

Once an appeal has been made in the prescribed manner and the first stage PF appeal has been concluded – whether or not in the passenger’s favour – no prosecution can be taken in connection with the same incident under the Railway Byelaws, section 5 (3) of the Regulation of Railways Act, the Fraud Act, and possibly a few others I’ve forgotten.

Or would they be able to take action in the county court to recover the debt?

That is an option open to them.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Once an appeal has been made in the prescribed manner and the first stage PF appeal has been concluded – whether or not in the passenger’s favour – no prosecution can be taken in connection with the same incident under the Railway Byelaws, section 5 (3) of the Regulation of Railways Act, the Fraud Act, and possibly a few others I’ve forgotten.

That is an option open to them.

Thanks for this. Does this then mean that the only sanction properly* open to the railway is going to the county court to recover the debt?

* But I am conscious that we are seeing another thread where Northern (also, I think the railway company involved here) appear to be attempting to bring a criminal court prosecution even though a penalty fare was taken through the appeal process. It may be that the OP here will also face what seems to be a procedurally impossible prosecution.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for this. Does this then mean that the only sanction properly* open to the railway is going to the county court to recover the debt?

* But I am conscious that we are seeing another thread where Northern (also, I think the railway company involved here) appear to be attempting to bring a criminal court prosecution even though a penalty fare was taken through the appeal process. It may be that the OP here will also face what seems to be a procedurally impossible prosecution.

Yes, in essence. The prosecution in the other case is, sadly, not barred in the same way that a section 5(3) RoRA or Byelaws prosecution would be. But it is entirely unfounded based on their own evidence - and even worse, they had no legal power to bring it through the SJPN process; they would have had to apply for a summons.

Unfortunately there is little, in practical terms, to prevent the abuse of legal processes that Northern appears to be committing on a routine basis. It really needs someone in authority to get it stopped, but it's difficult to see which agency/person might take an interest.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Yes, in essence.

Thanks. So if we want to advise the OP, it's about what may happen to bring a county court case for the amount of the PFN - with a warning to beware of any attempt to bring a criminal charge.

As I asked rather earlier, do we have any understanding of what train companies actually do about unpaid PFNs? Options I can imagine are (not necessarily in this order)
- sending letters to pursue
- going to county court
- sending debt collectors round
- selling the debt on to someone else to pursue

 

[MotCO]

Yes, in essence. The prosecution in the other case is, sadly, not barred in the same way that a section 5(3) RoRA or Byelaws prosecution would be. But it is entirely unfounded based on their own evidence - and even worse, they had no legal power to bring it through the SJPN process; they would have had to apply for a summons.

Unfortunately there is little, in practical terms, to prevent the abuse of legal processes that Northern appears to be committing on a routine basis. It really needs someone in authority to get it stopped, but it's difficult to see which agency/person might take an interest.

Is this the time to involve your MP?

 

[fandroid]

Yes, in essence. The prosecution in the other case is, sadly, not barred in the same way that a section 5(3) RoRA or Byelaws prosecution would be. But it is entirely unfounded based on their own evidence - and even worse, they had no legal power to bring it through the SJPN process; they would have had to apply for a summons.

Unfortunately there is little, in practical terms, to prevent the abuse of legal processes that Northern appears to be committing on a routine basis. It really needs someone in authority to get it stopped, but it's difficult to see which agency/person might take an interest.

A detailed complaint with examples sent to their only shareholder, DfT?

Alternatively, a letter from a complainant's MP to the Secretary of State, spelling out in detail where the law is being abused?

 

[ConfusedNorth]

You may wish to consider whether to make a complaint about the way in which Transport Focus itself has dealt with your complaint, as they have apparently turned a blind eye to the obvious shortcomings in the way in which the Final Appeals Panel dealt with your case. Don't know whether your exchanges with Transport Focus mentioned the points I set out in my previous post as matters TF should be invited to look into, but the Final Appeals Panel in your case seems to have been so determined to close their minds to the possibility that relevant facilities were unavailable as to cast doubt on their ability and readiness to have looked at your case fairly - and that is something to which passages I quoted from the Guidelines are apposite, in particular: "Any Final Stage Appeal panel should have involvement from passenger groups in ensuring they consider cases fairly."

Probably something of a forlorn hope to raise such a complaint, but details of how to do so are at https://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.n...omplaint-Handling-Procedure-November-2018.pdf.

If you decline to pay the penalty fare now that the appeal process has gone through its final stage, you may well find yourself faced with a prosecution under Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act 1889, notwithstanding that any such proseuction may well be unsustainable if defended. I hope you'll report details of further developments and any such prosecution so that further assistance can be offered here.

Well, it did annoy me that TF stated in their first email there was a ticket office at the station, it seems to me they have only read The Penalty Services last response and gone off that, as that mentioned Sheffield, which I was at no point even in the same county.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

It may be worthwhile contacting Northern directly with all the information you have supplied to this thread. It's quite clear cut but it would seem that the appeals process has let you down (as it does many other people). If someone at Northern can look over this and takes just a couple of minutes to look at the evidence then it should be a quickly closed pfn.
Not sure how they would respond, but it may be worth your while to email them the information, and then a quick phone call to nudge them into picking it up asap.

drpu@northernrailway.co.uk
01904 568181 and select option 5 (Monday to Friday 9am - 4pm)

The above details can be verified on the Northern website.

I think I might try this, I spoke to Northern Rail, right at the start and they refused to deal with me and told me everything must go through TPS, I have a feeling as TPS have rejected my appeals, they'll tell me theres nothing they can do, but it might be worth a try.

I have gone back to TF with this,

"
Hi X,

Thank you for your email, surely The Penalty Services mentioning the wrong station shows they have not followed the procedure correctly? The machines may have been sufficient at Sheffield, but I was not at Sheffield or even in the same county at any point.

Furthermore, if the signs are non-compliant (which they are as per supplied evidence), surely a penalty notice can not be issued in the first place anyway?

Although, I dispute the ticket machine was working as it would not allow me to buy a ticket or PTP. If we follow what you stated, and it was only the promise to pay that was unavailable, but the ticket machine was working fine.What if my card was rejected, or I only had cash, but not enough on me, which I only realised at the station. Surely if a promise to pay is unavailable, then Northern Rail have not provided the facilities they are expected to and it shows that there can be fault that is not logged on their machines?

I apologise for the repeat emails and I do appreciate you coming back to me, however it seems the regulation inplace are completely pointless, even if the ticket machine was working fine, the signs are still non-compliant, I have not yet had a response regarding this or The Penalty Services basing the last appeal on the complete wrong station in a separate county.

Kind Regards,"

I'm not holding out much hope, I think a complaint won't do much good either as they are all seem to be agreeing with each other that they have commmited no fault. It has been well over 28 days since I have recieved the penalty notice, but I have had no communication from Northern Rail, maybe they have seen my communications / are aware they can only go down the civil route and thought it was not worth the hassle? Heres hoping

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

Thanks. So if we want to advise the OP, it's about what may happen to bring a county court case for the amount of the PFN - with a warning to beware of any attempt to bring a criminal charge.

As I asked rather earlier, do we have any understanding of what train companies actually do about unpaid PFNs? Options I can imagine are (not necessarily in this order)
- sending letters to pursue
- going to county court
- sending debt collectors round
- selling the debt on to someone else to pursue

I'm new to all this, so sorry if this is a stupid question. Can debt collectors / selling the debt happen without a CCJ? Surely at this point, is it simply a dispute between me and Northern Rail, and a civil matter, would they not need some kind of judgement for a court to be able to start sending debt collectors demanidng money?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

Is this the time to involve your MP?

I went to my MP, around my second appeal. She was absolutely fantastic as was her staff. Unfortuantley, they sent a letter to Northern Rail and was told there was nothing Northern Could do and it is with TPN. They also sent several letters to TPN but never had a response.

I imagine if Nothern try a criminal prosecution it would be worth contacting her again, as per the regs, they should not be doing this. But I think currently until I hear from Northern, it is simply a waiting game.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

A detailed complaint with examples sent to their only shareholder, DfT?

Alternatively, a letter from a complainant's MP to the Secretary of State, spelling out in detail where the law is being abused?

Funnily enough I also tried the Dft / Mark Harper at the same time as my MP. I must look mental all the people I have contacted. I had a reponse from Mark Harper's office stating they can only help constituents, which is far enough. So I contacted the Dft and got an nothing reply stating all the basics, should have bought a ticket, I have the right to appeal etc, mentioned TransportFocus. I didn't bother going any further with that. But again, if Nothern go for prosecution I will contact them again

 

[Watershed]

I'm new to all this, so sorry if this is a stupid question. Can debt collectors / selling the debt happen without a CCJ? Surely at this point, is it simply a dispute between me and Northern Rail, and a civil matter, would they not need some kind of judgement for a court to be able to start sending debt collectors demanidng money?

There's no such thing as a stupid question - this isn't exactly a process that you go through every day!

Up until the point that you've been taken to the County Court, have lost the case, and have been issued with a County Court Judgment (CCJ) against you, there is effectively nothing that Northern or any debt collectors they might decide to appoint can do. They can hassle you and ask you to pay all they want, but they've got no legal powers to force you to pay.

If a CCJ is issued, there are steps that can be taken to force you to pay - but let's deal with that when and if that happens

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Up until the point that you've been taken to the County Court, have lost the case, and have been issued with a County Court Judgment (CCJ) against you, there is effectively nothing that Northern or any debt collectors they might decide to appoint can do. They can hassle you and ask you to pay all they want, but they've got no legal powers to force you to pay.

A quick Google comes up with https://moneynerd.co.uk/what-can-debt-collectors-do-uk/. Although it reads a little like an attempt to sell something, the advice ties in with the little I know - which would be that creditors have some powers to pursue a debt before getting to County Court.

 

[island]

A quick Google comes up with https://moneynerd.co.uk/what-can-debt-collectors-do-uk/. Although it reads a little like an attempt to sell something, the advice ties in with the little I know - which would be that creditors have some powers to pursue a debt before getting to County Court.

They have no more power than you or I.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

They have no more power than you or I.

Indeed, and there seems to be nothing stopping you or I (or the railway) being quite persistent in pursuing a debtor. Before suggesting to someone that going into (arguably) debt we should surely consider the downsides as well as the upsides.