Help With FPN?

[ConfusedNorth]

I recently was going from Fitzwilliam to Leeds and back.

My partner and I, tried to buy tickets off the Northern Rail and Trainline app, but it would not allow us to, it said the journey was unavailable. Please see attached screenshot.

I then tried to use the machine, but this would also not allow me to buy a ticket, I then tried to get a promise to pay, again. It said this was unavailable. Please see attached. I took this as the ticket machine was having a fault.

Then the train pulled up and I jumped on, the train was fairly busy and the journey is not the longest, so I could not find the conductor at any point and was unavailable to get one before arriving at Leeds.

Once I arrived at Leeds I went straight to the ticket office and was presented a FPN.

I have appealed twice but both have been rejected, I am now on my final appeal which I must send tomorrow, I am hoping someone can help, I have recently lost my job and could really do without a £200 fine (me and my partner)

Thank you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum.

Fitzwilliam is unstaffed, yes, so how can / does one pay by cash (if that was the intention) if the TVM won't issue a 'Promise to Pay' coupon, as appears to have been the case?

Can this be used as a valid defence to overturn the FPNs?

 

[AlterEgo]

The person reading the appeal seems to think the journey being “unavailable” was on the machine and not their app as the OP states.

The OP however states they weren’t able to use the machine to buy a ticket. Why? It would be helpful to see the full appeal from the OP’s side.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

Welcome to the forum.

Fitzwilliam is unstaffed, yes, so how can / does one pay by cash (if that was the intention) if the TVM won't issue a 'Promise to Pay' coupon, as appears to have been the case?

Can this be used as a valid defence to overturn the FPNs?

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I have tried to use the defense of the machine being faulty, however they came back in the second reply to say their records show the machines working fine (obviously not!) and that I should have grabbed a conductor (who I could not find). I was under the impression that if there is not a ticket buying facility at the station then you are cleared, but they seem to be saying that does not matter. It seems really unfair.

This was a in April, does anyone know would CCTV be able to back up the machine not working for me or me looking for a conductor?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Hypothetical question - if the machine was unable to offer either a ticket or a promise to pay, what would be the most likely cause? To me, if the machine was unable to do either, it sounds like it was unable to print.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

The person reading the appeal seems to think the journey being “unavailable” was on the machine and not their app as the OP states.

The OP however states they weren’t able to use the machine to buy a ticket. Why? It would be helpful to see the full appeal from the OP’s side.

Hi,

Thank you for your reply. Apologies, do you mean the appeals I sent? I have copies if that would help you. From how I read the second appeal, I think they mean their records show other people being able to buy tickets all day. Which I am not disagreeing with, all I wanted to highlight to them was it would allow me to buy a ticket at least. It's a really frustrating process.

First appeal I sent;

"Hi,

We were due to get the 11:00 train from Fitzwilliam.

My partner and I, tried to book the tickets through the app, however it would not allow either of us to do so. (Please see attached evidence).

We then tried to use the ticket machine at the Fitzwilliam station, however it stated the train / journey did not exist (it allowed us to select the train, but when we went to confirm and pay it would allow this, I imagine CCTV at the station could confirm this). The man at the station advised this is most likely as you can not buy tickets for a train 5 minutes before arrival.

We then assumed we could buy a ticket from a conductor. However they never walked down the train, and we could not see them at any point.

We went to the ticket station at Leeds to then finally try and buy one, but unfortunately was given this fine.

We tried our best at every point to get a ticket. We very rarely use the trains and we were unsure on the procedure for this situation.

I am hoping this fine can be struck off, as it is clear and obvious, this was out of our control."

And second appeal;

"My partner and I tried to buy tickets through the Northern Rail App, originally I thought she had tried Trainline, as I did. But my partner was on the Northern Rail app, please see attached screenshot confirming it would not allow us to purchase tickets. The trainline app also would not allow us to.

We also tried to use the ticket machine, however it stated the journey was unavailable as well and did not give us the option to buy a ticket. We next tried to use the machine for a promise to pay. However the machine also refused and advised they were unavailable (please see attached photo for evidence)

The train pulled up and we jumped on, however the conductor never walked down the train and we did not bump into him leaving or entering the train (I am not trying to blame the conductor, I understand he will have been busy, but merely showing again we had no option to buy a ticket)

Finally, we got to Leeds train station, and as per the signs went to the ticket office and was provided with a fine. My argument is, how could we have possibly bought a ticket at any point through our journey or got a promise to pay.

As far as I can tell from reading the Northern Rail website, the offence is to board a train without intent of buying a ticket. I hope these screenshots will prove we had intent to buy a ticket and tried to at every stage. I’m sure CCTV on the train and at the railway could further back up what I have stated

As I see it the rail company did not provide the facility to buy a ticket.

The ticket machine clearly had a fault, and would not allow us to buy a ticket or get a promise to pay."

Hope this helps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2023 ==

Hypothetical question - if the machine was unable to offer either a ticket or a promise to pay, what would be the most likely cause? To me, if the machine was unable to do either, it sounds like it was unable to print.

I'm not sure, they seem to state that no one else had an issue, so not sure if it was a temporary glitch on the machine.

 

[Snow1964]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I have tried to use the defense of the machine being faulty, however they came back in the second reply to say their records show the machines working fine (obviously not!) and that I should have grabbed a conductor (who I could not find). I was under the impression that if there is not a ticket buying facility at the station then you are cleared, but they seem to be saying that does not matter. It seems really unfair.

This was a in April, does anyone know would CCTV be able to back up the machine not working for me or me looking for a conductor?

You are correct:
Buy ticket before boarding
but if no ticket office open, or machine not working, or machine is unable to offer ticket (has limited selection which excludes your need), then can buy on the train.

If conductor is unavailable (and some staff have habit of hiding in a random mid or back cab, rather than patrolling train after unstaffed station, then need to try and buy it at next interchange or destination. That is what excess fares windows were for, although most now have a new name, but still should do same function. There have been multiple threads of Leeds staff not following the rules and issuing a false penalty.

If their argument is incorrectly machine working (even though you have photo of it not), and they cannot find evidence of conductor appearing then clearly no grounds to reject appeal.

Ultimately, have a choice of appealing again, or advising them you wish a personal appearance in court to defend yourself and present the evidence as they clearly aren't listening.


I would amend your appeal and make it clear you were trying to buy tickets for middle train on your image (just in case someone only checked first train, which had already left according to time on top left of phone).

Although you had 8 minutes before late running train would arrive, I wonder if system blocked you from buying for a train that was timetabled in 2 minutes. Perhaps others can clarify on this point, but rather daft when train is running late, as a ticket office would sell you a ticket even if had to run across station to the train.

 

[SuspectUsual]

When getting a Promise to Pay, are they issued at the end of the buying process (ie after selecting a train)? If so, does this explain why one couldn't be obtained for the train the OP wanted to catch?

 

[ConfusedNorth]

You are correct:
Buy ticket before boarding
but if no ticket office open, or machine not working, or machine is unable to offer ticket (has limited selection which excludes your need), then can buy on the train.

If conductor is unavailable (and some staff have habit of hiding in a random mid or back cab, rather than patrolling train after unstaffed station, then need to try and buy it at next interchange or destination. That is what excess fares windows were for, although most now have a new name, but still should do same function. There have been multiple threads of Leeds staff not following the rules and issuing a false penalty.

If their argument is incorrectly machine working (even though you have photo of it not), and they cannot find evidence of conductor appearing then clearly no grounds to reject appeal.

Ultimately, have a choice of appealing again, or advising them you wish a personal appearance in court to defend yourself and present the evidence as they clearly aren't listening.


I would amend your appeal and make it clear you were trying to buy tickets for middle train on your image (just in case someone only checked first train, which had already left according to time on top left of phone).

Although you had 8 minutes before late running train would arrive, I wonder if system blocked you from buying for a train that was timetabled in 2 minutes. Perhaps others can clarify on this point, but rather daft when train is running late, as a ticket office would sell you a ticket even if had to run across station to the train.

Thank you, this is what is particularly frustrating, it seems really simple and I keep getting rejected. I feel if I could speak to someone and explain it would be cleared up in 5 minutes, but they only method of contact is to appeal. I have tried speaking to Northern Rail, but they have advised the process is independent and they are unable to rescind a FPN.

I feel it my last appeal is rejected, I would go to a court, as I feel the evidence shows I have done everything I could, unless anyone would advise against this as they would see my clearly at fault or something?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2023 ==

When getting a Promise to Pay, are they issued at the end of the buying process (ie after selecting a train)? If so, does this explain why one couldn't be obtained for the train the OP wanted to catch?

Hi,

It wouldn't allow me to select a train either, in the last appeal response they advised I should have gotten a open ticket. This feels participatory unfair as A) they are more expensive and why should I pay out of pocket for a fault on Northern Rail's machine. I knew exactly what trains I wanted to get on there and back. B) Admittedly, I did not try to get a open, but if the machine was not working for me, why would I keep trying to buy tickets, surely that is the point of the promise to pay?

It seems they keep changing the goal posts.

At first it was I should have got a promise to pay, then I should have got a open ticket, then I should have found a conductor, then "well all that doesn't matter because we believe the machine was working"

I have spoken to Citizen's Advise who have advised the third and final appeal is dealt with a different person / higher up, can anyone confirm this?

I have also contacted my local MP, this did feel a bit silly as I know they are busy, but I have recently lost my job and could seriously do without being £100 down for something that feels so unfair. I was banging my head against the wall getting no luck from Northern Rail or The Penalty Services, she has written to them directly and I hope this will help them see sense, but I am not confident. But to be fair to my MP, she has been fantastic

 

[AdamWW]

At first it was I should have got a promise to pay, then I should have got a open ticket, then I should have found a conductor, then

While being proactive and finding the conductor is generally a good thing to do in such circumstances, I do not believe there is any requirement to do so.

 

[Snow1964]

It wouldn't allow me to select a train either, in the last appeal response they advised I should have gotten a open ticket. This feels participatory unfair as A) they are more expensive and why should I pay out of pocket for a fault on Northern Rail's machine. I knew exactly what trains I wanted to get on there and back. B) Admittedly, I did not try to get a open, but if the machine was not working for me, why would I keep trying to buy tickets, surely that is the point of the promise to pay?

I think the paragraph on second appeal answer is dreadful, since when would a passenger know that if a ticket shows unavailable, they can do another transaction, for a different time and use it on the train where it said unavailable. If that was a serios option it would pop up, not expect you to restart and jump through hoops deliberately selecting a wrong time.

I think there might be something in app using timetable, saying 2 minutes isn't enough to buy the ticket (why not), even through train was 6 minutes late, so had 8 minutes to buy. But it is worth highlighting it is the middle of the 3 trains on your screenshot (somebody might have only read first train, and noticed it went before time on phone screen)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2023 ==

Hypothetical question - if the machine was unable to offer either a ticket or a promise to pay, what would be the most likely cause? To me, if the machine was unable to do either, it sounds like it was unable to print.

Had a similar thing last night on a GWR machine, showing out of service, so couldn't collect tickets, was working first thing this morning after ticket office person turned up, and I think put a ticket roll in it. Maybe they are programmed to display out of service, rather than, sorry, run out of paper. Even though I collected the tickets this morning, it had a orange flashing light on side of machine facing the platform, not sure if this is indication to train crew, although no idea what it means.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm not an expert in this field, but it seems to me that there is at least a chance of a successful appeal.

My understanding is that to be successful, the appeal must meet one of the following:

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a)the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

(b)the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;

(c)the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or

(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

(source - The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, reg 16(3). https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16/made)

It's the last line (Reg 16(3)(d)) that's the important bit. Essentially, it's a catch-all clause for all the other good reasons for not having got a ticket before you got on the train.

As I understand it, you tried 3 different ways of buying a ticket (Northern app, Trainline app, ticket machine). None of them would sell you a ticket. You now understand that you could have bought an open ticket against a later train, but you didn't know that at the time. You also tried to comply by getting a promise to pay coupon but the machine wouldn't issue one. When you were on the train, you didn't manage to find the guard. When you got to Leeds you went straight to the point where you believed you could buy a ticket: that's where you received the penalty fares.

In my view, this is a compelling reason why you shouldn't have to pay the penalty fare: you tried several times at the beginning and end of your journey to pay. You took screenshots and photos to show that you were trying to pay but being let down by the technology.

So my suggestion would be to make your third appeal. Spell everything out. So
- tell them that the grounds of your appeal is that there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay the penalty fare
- tell them this is in line with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, reg 16(3) and that this needs to be considered at the final stage appeal (Reg 18(2)(b) and Reg 18(5))
- explain everything that happened. Don't assume that your paperwork from the earlier appeals will have gone forward. Tell them everything.


It may work. or it may not. But I thnk you are entitled to try.

 

[island]

No, the appeal would be made under ground (a) that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the regulations, specifically regulation 6 (2) (a) as no ticketing facilities were in operation at their starting station.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

No, the appeal would be made under ground (a) that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the regulations, specifically regulation 6 (2) (a) as no ticketing facilities were in operation at their starting station.

Hi,

This is what is confusing, I was under the impression if there is no ticket machine (or a working one), you are not liable for the FPN as Northern Rail should provide facility to buy one and I highlighted this in the second appeal but was still rejected?

We are told not to rely on conductors to buy a ticket and buy one before entering train, however if NR are at fault, conductors can magically provide them, seems a tad unfair.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2023 ==

I'm not an expert in this field, but it seems to me that there is at least a chance of a successful appeal.

My understanding is that to be successful, the appeal must meet one of the following:



(source - The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, reg 16(3). https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16/made)

It's the last line (Reg 16(3)(d)) that's the important bit. Essentially, it's a catch-all clause for all the other good reasons for not having got a ticket before you got on the train.

As I understand it, you tried 3 different ways of buying a ticket (Northern app, Trainline app, ticket machine). None of them would sell you a ticket. You now understand that you could have bought an open ticket against a later train, but you didn't know that at the time. You also tried to comply by getting a promise to pay coupon but the machine wouldn't issue one. When you were on the train, you didn't manage to find the guard. When you got to Leeds you went straight to the point where you believed you could buy a ticket: that's where you received the penalty fares.

In my view, this is a compelling reason why you shouldn't have to pay the penalty fare: you tried several times at the beginning and end of your journey to pay. You took screenshots and photos to show that you were trying to pay but being let down by the technology.

So my suggestion would be to make your third appeal. Spell everything out. So
- tell them that the grounds of your appeal is that there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay the penalty fare
- tell them this is in line with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, reg 16(3) and that this needs to be considered at the final stage appeal (Reg 18(2)(b) and Reg 18(5))
- explain everything that happened. Don't assume that your paperwork from the earlier appeals will have gone forward. Tell them everything.


It may work. or it may not. But I thnk you are entitled to try.

I will try a third appeal, I have nothing to lose at this point. It's a great help to have the regulations listed like that, so thank you Fawkes Cat & Island. I will definitely highlight in my last appeal what you have both mentioned. I'm going to try and get as much advise as I can, make the appeal as strong as possible, most likely write up in the morning and send off.

So any further advice anyone has will be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure the protocol on this forum as I am a new member and don't want to respond to everyone directly and spam the forum. But thank you everyone that has commented, I was worried I might get told I have no chance but so far everyone has been a great help!

I'm glad to see the general is that I have a case at least

 

[Watershed]

Hi,

This is what is confusing, I was under the impression if there is no ticket machine (or a working one), you are not liable for the FPN as Northern Rail should provide facility to buy one and I highlighted this in the second appeal but was still rejected?

This is correct. There are a number of prerequisites before a Penalty Fare can lawfully be issued; one of them is the availability of ticketing facilities. I don't think that a ticket machine which refuses to sell you a ticket when selecting the train you'd like to take can be taken as constituting 'available facilities'. The fact that you might be able to select a later train and flexible ticket, and then use that ticket on your desired train, is neither here nor there. The average person can't be expected to know that this is what they must do to get the machine to sell them a ticket.

We are told not to rely on conductors to buy a ticket and buy one before entering train, however if NR are at fault, conductors can magically provide them, seems a tad unfair.

If there are no ticketing facilities available at the station, you are allowed to board the train and buy your ticket at the next available opportunity. That could be onboard the train if a member of staff comes through selling tickets, or otherwise at your destination. In any event, there is no obligation to proactively seek out the conductor in this scenario - though as your experience has shown, it can be worthwhile if travelling to stations such as Leeds where they like to use the excess fares window as a sort of 'honey trap' for the unwary.

For future reference, almost all services outside London and the SE have a member of staff onboard who is capable of selling tickets. All Northern services have a guard; at stations, they will generally be found right at the back of the train, although occasionally they may dispatch the train from further forwards.

I will try a third appeal, I have nothing to lose at this point. It's a great help to have the regulations listed like that, so thank you Fawkes Cat & Island. I will definitely highlight in my last appeal what you have both mentioned. I'm going to try and get as much advise as I can, make the appeal as strong as possible, most likely write up in the morning and send off.

So any further advice anyone has will be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure the protocol on this forum as I am a new member and don't want to respond to everyone directly and spam the forum. But thank you everyone that has commented, I was worried I might get told I have no chance but so far everyone has been a great help!

I'm glad to see the general is that I have a case at least

You have strong grounds for an appeal. Unfortunately the appeals body is far from independent or competent (they certainly shouldn't be threatening you with consequences for non-payment or telling you how to pay), and so I can't say I'm surprised that they have wrongly denied your first two appeals.

The good news is that, since you submitted a first-stage appeal and this appeal was decided without Northern having cancelled the Penalty Fare, Northern are now legally barred from bringing a criminal prosecution against you in relation to this incident - this is under Regulation 11(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations. Even if your third stage appeal is denied, the worst they are allowed to do is to bring a civil claim for the value of the Penalty Fare.

Unfortunately, previous experience has shown us that unscrupulous operators such as Northern often still bring prosecutions where they are barred from doing so, as a result of people appealing. They seem to have taken no notice of the fact that this became unlawful with the introduction of the new Penalty Fares Regulations in 2018. If this happens in your case, then you would be well advised to seek legal advice in order to get the prosecution withdrawn or stayed as an abuse of process. It's appalling that this is sometimes necessary (and this is another thing you might want to raise with your MP), but ultimately they are simply not allowed to do it.

Anyway, let's see what the appeals body comes back with first. You might want to post a draft of your proposed appeal here for feedback, before sending it off.

 

[WesternLancer]

I will try a third appeal, I have nothing to lose at this point. It's a great help to have the regulations listed like that, so thank you Fawkes Cat & Island. I will definitely highlight in my last appeal what you have both mentioned. I'm going to try and get as much advise as I can, make the appeal as strong as possible, most likely write up in the morning and send off.

I've seen excellent advice on here from people on getting Appeal wording correct to be most effective. Def a good idea for you to post up your draft 3rd Appel wording so people can help get it focused to achieve best chance of winning it.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

This is correct. There are a number of prerequisites before a Penalty Fare can lawfully be issued; one of them is the availability of ticketing facilities. I don't think that a ticket machine which refuses to sell you a ticket when selecting the train you'd like to take can be taken as constituting 'available facilities'. The fact that you might be able to select a later train and flexible ticket, and then use that ticket on your desired train, is neither here nor there. The average person can't be expected to know that this is what they must do to get the machine to sell them a ticket.


If there are no ticketing facilities available at the station, you are allowed to board the train and buy your ticket at the next available opportunity. That could be onboard the train if a member of staff comes through selling tickets, or otherwise at your destination. In any event, there is no obligation to proactively seek out the conductor in this scenario - though as your experience has shown, it can be worthwhile if travelling to stations such as Leeds where they like to use the excess fares window as a sort of 'honey trap' for the unwary.

For future reference, almost all services outside London and the SE have a member of staff onboard who is capable of selling tickets. All Northern services have a guard; at stations, they will generally be found right at the back of the train, although occasionally they may dispatch the train from further forwards.


You have strong grounds for an appeal. Unfortunately the appeals body is far from independent or competent (they certainly shouldn't be threatening you with consequences for non-payment or telling you how to pay), and so I can't say I'm surprised that they have wrongly denied your first two appeals.

The good news is that, since you submitted a first-stage appeal and this appeal was decided without Northern having cancelled the Penalty Fare, Northern are now legally barred from bringing a criminal prosecution against you in relation to this incident - this is under Regulation 11(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations. Even if your third stage appeal is denied, the worst they are allowed to do is to bring a civil claim for the value of the Penalty Fare.

Unfortunately, previous experience has shown us that unscrupulous operators such as Northern often still bring prosecutions where they are barred from doing so, as a result of people appealing. They seem to have taken no notice of the fact that this became unlawful with the introduction of the new Penalty Fares Regulations in 2018. If this happens in your case, then you would be well advised to seek legal advice in order to get the prosecution withdrawn or stayed as an abuse of process. It's appalling that this is sometimes necessary (and this is another thing you might want to raise with your MP), but ultimately they are simply not allowed to do it.

Anyway, let's see what the appeals body comes back with first. You might want to post a draft of your proposed appeal here for feedback, before sending it off.

I've seen excellent advice on here from people on getting Appeal wording correct to be most effective. Def a good idea for you to post up your draft 3rd Appel wording so people can help get it focused to achieve best chance of winning it.

Thank you everyone for further advice, I will write up my below draft and if anyone has any advice / suggestion that would be perfect. (There is a 2000 character limit and I will attach photo of app and promise to pay fault)

"My partner and I were catching the 11:00 train from Fitzwilliam to Leeds.

Firstly we tried to use Trainline and the Northern Rail app to purchase our tickets before arrival, neither would allow us to and stated the journey was not available (please see the attached evidence)

We next tried to use the ticket machine at the station. Which would not allow us to buy a ticket or get a promise to pay (please see attached evidence). On a previous appeal this was rejected as Northern Rail's data states the machine was working all day, I do not deny the machine worked for other users, however clearly when we went for a ticket there was some kind of fault/glitch. The attached screenshot shows it clearly would not provide us a ticket, and there are no other ticket facilities at Fitzwilliam.

The train arrived and we got on planning to get a ticket from the guard, it was a busy train and a short journey. At no point before arrival, could we find or see the guard.

At Leeds, we were provided with a FPN, which seems extremely unfair. The staff member advised as we had evidence of trying to get a promise to pay, we should appeal and it would be quickly overturned as it is Northern Rail's duty to provide ticket facilitates.

Under The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, reg 16(3)(d)) a person may appeal if "there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare." this FPN should be overturned as it is clear we had intention to buy a ticket at every stage, but were unable to do so due to external factors out of our control.

Also, under reg 6(2)(a)) if "there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey" Surely the attached evidence shows that when we went to buy a ticket, there machine would not provide a ticket.

I believe it would only be fair to overturn this appeal, due to the lack of ticket buying facilities at Fitzwilliam."

I have 17 characters left and would massively appreciate any advice anyone has! This is my last appeal so want to make it a good one!

EDIT: Looking back I feel I have waffled a bit and could do with being a bit more to the point?

 

[Watershed]

Thank you everyone for further advice, I will write up my below draft and if anyone has any advice / suggestion that would be perfect. (There is a 2000 character limit and I will attach photo of app and promise to pay fault)

"My partner and I were catching the 11:00 train from Fitzwilliam to Leeds.

Firstly we tried to use Trainline and the Northern Rail app to purchase our tickets before arrival, neither would allow us to and stated the journey was not available (please see the attached evidence)

We next tried to use the ticket machine at the station. Which would not allow us to buy a ticket or get a promise to pay (please see attached evidence). On a previous appeal this was rejected as Northern Rail's data states the machine was working all day, I do not deny the machine worked for other users, however clearly when we went for a ticket there was some kind of fault/glitch. The attached screenshot shows it clearly would not provide us a ticket, and there are no other ticket facilities at Fitzwilliam.

The train arrived and we got on planning to get a ticket from the guard, it was a busy train and a short journey. At no point before arrival, could we find or see the guard.

At Leeds, we were provided with a FPN, which seems extremely unfair. The staff member advised as we had evidence of trying to get a promise to pay, we should appeal and it would be quickly overturned as it is Northern Rail's duty to provide ticket facilitates.

Under The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, reg 16(3)(d)) a person may appeal if "there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare." this FPN should be overturned as it is clear we had intention to buy a ticket at every stage, but were unable to do so due to external factors out of our control.

Also, under reg 6(2)(a)) if "there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey" Surely the attached evidence shows that when we went to buy a ticket, there machine would not provide a ticket.

I believe it would only be fair to overturn this appeal, due to the lack of ticket buying facilities at Fitzwilliam."

I have 17 characters left and would massively appreciate any advice anyone has! This is my last appeal so want to make it a good one!

EDIT: Looking back I feel I have waffled a bit and could do with being a bit more to the point?

This seems perfectly reasonable. If you're struggling with the character limit, you could write it up as a document in Word/Google Docs etc., export it as a PDF and then attach that and say "please see attached PDF for grounds of appeal".

You might also want to mention the fact that the signage likely didn't comply with the requirements under the Penalty Fares Regulations, though again previous experience suggests that the incompetent appeals body won't take much heed of this and will simply take Northern's claim of being compliant at face value.

 

[Haywain]

Also, under reg 6(2)(a)) if "there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey" Surely the attached evidence shows that when we went to buy a ticket, there machine would not provide a ticket.

It's a minor detail but you are either saying "the machine" or "their machine".

 

[fandroid]

I have appealed twice but both have been rejected, I am now on my final appeal which I must send tomorrow, I am hoping someone can help, I have recently lost my job and could really do without a £200 fine (me and my partner)

It might be small comfort to the OP and their partner but appealing against a penalty fare normally stops the clock, so that if the third appeal fails, then the penalties should be restricted to £50 each plus the unpaid fares. (But only if the the penalties are paid promptly.)

 

[ConfusedNorth]

This seems perfectly reasonable. If you're struggling with the character limit, you could write it up as a document in Word/Google Docs etc., export it as a PDF and then attach that and say "please see attached PDF for grounds of appeal".

You might also want to mention the fact that the signage likely didn't comply with the requirements under the Penalty Fares Regulations, though again previous experience suggests that the incompetent appeals body won't take much heed of this and will simply take Northern's claim of being compliant at face value.

Sorry can you expand regarding signage? Do you mean signing advising to buy a ticket? I'm can't actually remember anything about the signs so they may have been fully compliant. Unless I'm understanding you incorrectly

 

[ConfusedNorth]

This seems perfectly reasonable. If you're struggling with the character limit, you could write it up as a document in Word/Google Docs etc., export it as a PDF and then attach that and say "please see attached PDF for grounds of appeal".

You might also want to mention the fact that the signage likely didn't comply with the requirements under the Penalty Fares Regulations, though again previous experience suggests that the incompetent appeals body won't take much heed of this and will simply take Northern's claim of being compliant at face value.

Hi,

The PDF is a good shout, I think I might have managed to get everything in I wanted to, so it might be ok. Unless there anything anyone would advice to add? I'll be interested to hear more regarding the signs, the more ammo I have, the better. So that might need to done via PDF.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

Hi Everyone,

I have took the advice, and written up my appeal more full in word (please see attached.) I have been down to the station, but unfortuantley it does have signs and they seem to have the updated fine of £100, so that looks like a no go.

I am going to send my appeal tonight, so if anyone has any final advise or regs to add, please let me know. Sorry to spam on this forum, but just a final thank you to everyone. You've all be a fantastic help.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Everyone,

I have took the advice, and written up my appeal more full in word (please see attached.) I have been down to the station, but unfortuantley it does have signs and they seem to have the updated fine of £100, so that looks like a no go.

I am going to send my appeal tonight, so if anyone has any final advise or regs to add, please let me know. Sorry to spam on this forum, but just a final thank you to everyone. You've all be a fantastic help.

No spam from you here! - people will appreciate the full info you have given as it helps people help you.

Just a hunch but if poss I'd end the statement with a very clear and unambiguous ask statement of them eg

"I would therefore respectfully request that you consider this 3rd stage appeal with a view to overturning the Penalty Fare on the very clear grounds that I have set out above"

if you need to fit this in to the word limit shorten some of the context info in the earlier bit (eg much briefer statement re 'online purchase attempt failed - see screenshot evidence' ) and other such edits

But obv it's nearly there and ready to go IMHO

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Ediswan]

I have been down to the station, but unfortuantley it does have signs and they seem to have the updated fine of £100, so that looks like a no go.

That is one of the new signs which does not have the legally required wording. It is required to say "may be charged", not "may have to pay". Whether that argument is likely to prevail has been debated here, with no clear conclusion.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/schedule/1/made

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

Standard notice

1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—

(a)the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;

(b)the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;

(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;

The relevant clause of the 2018 regulations was not changed by the 2022 amendments,

 

[SuspectUsual]

if you need to fit this in to the word limit shorten some of the context info in the earlier bit (eg much briefer statement re 'online purchase attempt failed - see screenshot evidence' ) and other such edits

I wouldn't say "failed", I'd say "not possible" - to me "failed" could imply something being wrong on the OP's side

 

[Watershed]

Hi Everyone,

I have took the advice, and written up my appeal more full in word (please see attached.) I have been down to the station, but unfortuantley it does have signs and they seem to have the updated fine of £100, so that looks like a no go.

I am going to send my appeal tonight, so if anyone has any final advise or regs to add, please let me know. Sorry to spam on this forum, but just a final thank you to everyone. You've all be a fantastic help.

Your appeal is well-worded. I would just remove the reference at the bottom of your appeal to the problem with the machine possibly being temporary, or in particular only lasting for 5 minutes. Whilst that might have been the case, I wouldn't try and invite an argument that you should have arrived at the station (some undefined amount of time) earlier.

That is one of the new signs which does not have the legally required wording. It is required to say "may be charged", not "may have to pay". Whether that argument is likely to prevail has been debated here, with no clear conclusion.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/schedule/1/made

The relevant clause of the 2018 regulations was not changed by the 2022 amendments,

Indeed. This is another point that the OP may wish to add to their appeal. Again, Regulation 8(2) requires that signs complying with paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 are displayed at each entrance to a platform. These signs didn't comply with Schedule 1 and so the signage requirements of Regulation 8(2) weren't complied with, hence it was unlawful to issue the Penalty Fare.

 

[ConfusedNorth]

Wow, thanks everyone for the advice. I feel much more confident now after being able to quote a few of the regs. I am going to submit this now, I believe I have taken everyone's advice as it was all good. So thank you all again.

I have attached the final copy in case anyone wants to read, I have read through but no doubt I have a spelling or grammar mistake somewhere!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2023 ==

Out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the procedure if this next appeal is rejected? Would my options become pay or go to a civil court? Is there a timescale for this?

 

[Watershed]

No problem!

Out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the procedure if this next appeal is rejected? Would my options become pay or go to a civil court? Is there a timescale for this?

Yes, in essence. The only way you can directly be forced to pay is if they bring a civil claim against you, and win. Otherwise it's your choice whether you pay voluntarily.

Given the grounds of appeal you have here, I would say the odds of a County Court Judgment in Northern's favour are low, but it is very unlikely that Northern would bring a civil claim in the first place - we have never heard of a TOC doing so.

It's also worth noting that civil claims of this sort of value would almost certainly be allocated to the Small Claims Track, where the ability to recover costs either way is very limited (essentially just the Court fees and direct travel and annual leave costs of attending any hearings). Legal costs are generally not recoverable.

Unfortunately, it's more likely that they would follow their usual path of prosecuting people who don't pay a Penalty Fare - notwithstanding the fact that they're legally barred from doing so here because you've appealed. You'd want to have some legal assistance to get any such prosecution stopped/stayed.

 

[John Palmer]

I find the illustrated passage from the reasons for rejection of the first appeal quite illuminating as to what Penalty Services Limited treats as proof from the operator that its ticket machine was working. It confirms that sales transaction data is captured in real time and therefore “represents factual evidence of transactions that took place at a specific time.” With that I don't disagree and, indeed, would be surprised to find it being suggested otherwise. What I do disagree with is the logically fragile extrapolation that successful sales transactions at, say, 14:55 and 15:05 are proof that a ticket machine was functioning correctly between those times when an appellant states that the machine didn't function correctly at 15:00. It might be otherwise if the captured transaction data not only included details of successfully concluded ticket sales but also details of transactions that had, for whatever reason, not resulted in a sale, but it appears from the PSL reasons given that no details of such failed or aborted transactions are transmitted. Nor does it appear that ticket machines log and transmit or retain information about faults that arise in the course of their operation that can subsequently be interrogated.

Since the OP has raised the question of what procedure is followed if his third and final appeal is rejected, I should be interested to hear why Regulation 12 of the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 refers to the amount of a penalty fare outstanding being recoverable as a “civil debt”. It seems that the usual assumption made in this forum is that an unpaid penalty fare could be recovered by civil action in the county court, but I have seen unpaid taxes referred to as “civil debts” that are recoverable in proceedings initiated in the magistrates courts. I have yet to hear of a case where a TOC sought to recover an unpaid penalty fare either in the county court or in the magistrates court so am unclear as to why TOCs seem apparently unwilling to pursue such fares via these avenues. I am led to wonder whether reference was made to a “civil debt” in Regulation 12 with a view to it being treated as a debt recoverable by means of magistrates court proceedings, but suspect that if that was the legislature's intent it may have been one that the 2018 Regulations' wording failed to achieve.