Help - Sitting in First class with Standard Class ticket

[kangzy]

Hi All,

I hoping you can offer me some advice. Last week I made my normal travel back from from Finsbury Park back to Hatfield via First Capital Connect. I hold a season card which I purchase monthly or weekly depending. I boarded the train at peak time and the standard class was very busy and noisy. At the time I had to make an important call to a candidate as I work within HR regarding an overseas offer. I couldnt hear the candidate as it was so noisy so I stupidly decided to sit in a first class seat to take the call.

The next thing I knew a ticket inspector was in front of me asking me for my ticket which I produced for him to reply "why are you sitting in first class with a standard class ticket?". I explained the situation as above, apologised and offered to move but he was clearly in a bad mood and wasnt having any of it decided to give me a £20 penalty fare which I couldnt pay as I left my wallet at work. So he then proceeded to take my details down and read me my rights as if I was under arrest - Of course I knew I wasnt. As this was the first time this has ever happened to me I assumed the penalty fare would be sent in the post for me to pay at a later date. Having trawled the web and forum I now know that this isnt going to be the case as the inspector didnt give me any paperwork after he took my details on how I could pay the fine.

So I am really seeking some desperate advice and guidance as I don't want a criminal record and really dont want it to go to court. I haven't yet received an "intention to prosecute letter" but I am expecting it arrive very soon.

Can someone please advice what I can expect to happen over the next few weeks/months? Or how I could perhaps resolve the matter before it gets to court? What should I do or say?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just to give you access to the opinions of some forum members in such matters, this recent thread might be useful: Penalty Fare - sitting in First Class on a Standard Ticket

I don't think you need to feel 'desperate', there is little you can do immediately, though I would advise you to prepare yourself for the likely outcome that you will have to pay a significant sum by way of costs and/or fine. It is common for first-time offenders to have an offer of an Out of Court Settlement accepted - this saves unnecessary Court time and cost as well as avoiding a Prosecution.

The letter will arrive in due course and you would be wise to avoid the accusation that the Inspector was in a bad mood but to apologise and explain that you have learnt the hard way that First Class is available only to First Class ticket holders and that you wish to compensate the Company for their inconvenience.

 

[cjohnson]

Do you remember what time service you were on? Not all Finsbury Park - Hitchin trains have first class scheduled in the timetable, even though first class seats are present on the train. FCC RPIs have been known to get this wrong in the past.

 

[jon0844]

Hi All,

I hoping you can offer me some advice. Last week I made my normal travel back from from Finsbury Park back to Hatfield via First Capital Connect. I hold a season card which I purchase monthly or weekly depending. I boarded the train at peak time and the standard class was very busy and noisy. At the time I had to make an important call to a candidate as I work within HR regarding an overseas offer. I couldnt hear the candidate as it was so noisy so I stupidly decided to sit in a first class seat to take the call.

The next thing I knew a ticket inspector was in front of me asking me for my ticket which I produced for him to reply "why are you sitting in first class with a standard class ticket?". I explained the situation as above, apologised and offered to move but he was clearly in a bad mood and wasnt having any of it decided to give me a £20 penalty fare which I couldnt pay as I left my wallet at work. So he then proceeded to take my details down and read me my rights as if I was under arrest - Of course I knew I wasnt. As this was the first time this has ever happened to me I assumed the penalty fare would be sent in the post for me to pay at a later date. Having trawled the web and forum I now know that this isnt going to be the case as the inspector didnt give me any paperwork after he took my details on how I could pay the fine.

So I am really seeking some desperate advice and guidance as I don't want a criminal record and really dont want it to go to court. I haven't yet received an "intention to prosecute letter" but I am expecting it arrive very soon.

Can someone please advice what I can expect to happen over the next few weeks/months? Or how I could perhaps resolve the matter before it gets to court? What should I do or say?

Thanks in advance.

If making a call like that was so important, why did you board the train? You know that it will enter a number of tunnels, so assuming you were on a fast train (first stop Hatfield), you'd have been up against the clock. Maybe a few minutes then gone.. then 20 seconds later, phone gets signal and gone.. right up to Potters Bar.

You have a season ticket, so I have to assume you're a regular traveller and have had some opportunity to read the ridiculously clear (and right in your line of sight) warnings that are plastered all over the doors to first class? Every time I see them, I think it's over the top - but obviously not.

I apologise if that sounds a little rude or condescending, but you must have known that you could be landed with a PF, twice the first class fare OR prosecution. If you don't have a FC ticket, don't go in (unless you know it's declassified and have a copy of a timetable to show the RPI). Yes, plenty of other people do sit in FC when it IS operating as FC and get away with it; maybe you have too, but sooner or later this will happen and FCC doesn't take prisoners these days.

When I travel on a train in the peak, and I did it for almost nine years, it's more like a morgue. People are wearing earphones or reading Metro/Evening Standard and as most people are on their own, they don't speak to anyone - certainly not loudly. Few people make phone calls these days, so if they're not watching a movie on their iPad, they're playing Angry Birds on their phone.

Finally, I doubt very much the RPI was in a bad mood. He was merely doing his job, and once you refused the PF was probably quite happy knowing what the likely outcome will be for you.

I don't know about you, but when I leave my wallet somewhere I panic. Leaving it at work would have been rushing back to get it, not leaving it there - and leaving me without any cash or cards. I doubt the RPI believed you, to be honest, and that might be why you perceived him to be in a bad mood.

My advice is that when you get your letter asking for your version of the event; just own up and be very apologetic. Seek to pay any out of court offer they ask for to avoid court.

 

[34D]

Can someone please advice what I can expect to happen over the next few weeks/months? Or how I could perhaps resolve the matter before it gets to court? What should I do or say?

Thanks in advance.

Wait for the letter, then post back here when it arrives. The letter may well hint at the possibility of an out-of-court settlement.

 

[Ferret]

Finally, I doubt very much the RPI was in a bad mood. He was merely doing his job, and once you refused the PF was probably quite happy knowing what the likely outcome will be for you.

Almost certainly. He's caught somebody bang to rights, and offering what is a pretty lame excuse as well. Paying the PF would've been a good course of action - I expect an out of Court settlement to cost the OP a 3 figure sum now, assuming this is a first offence.

 

[oversteer]

Well, on the bright side, if it was a work call - you might be able to claim back the fare and settlement from your company

I am not an accountant, so ask your accounts department first!

 

[kangzy]

Yes, your right there are a number of tunnels and maybe I was unclear but the candidate had actually called me. I knew it would probably cut out but I thought I would try my luck as I had been trying to get hold of the candidate all day.

I have only been travelling on the trains for the last 6months having recently moved house- no excuse however I know. This is the first time I have ever stepped foot in first class as my journey is very short. I fully acknowledge that the carriage way was well signed but as I mentioned and admitted I stupidly sat in a first class seat to get away from all the noise. Sods law!

Yes, on most days it is very quiet but on that particular day there were a number of young tourist who occupied the majority of carriage way.

I did panic at the time that I couldn’t find my wallet. It was only till later, when I called my manager she told me I dropped it on the way out of the office and had stored it in her desk for safe keeping.

Thanks for all you advice. All of the above details are irrelevant and I am fully aware I was in the wrong and explained to the inspector at the time. Perhaps I was a little naive about the repercussions of my actions and assumed I could pay the PC at a later date like most other fines or parking charges.

Would anyone advice calling FCC first to apologise? And would any care to quote a figure I could be facing in order to resolve out of court?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you remember what time service you were on? Not all Finsbury Park - Hitchin trains have first class scheduled in the timetable, even though first class seats are present on the train. FCC RPIs have been known to get this wrong in the past.

I believe it was the 16.28 to Cambridge...

Wait for the letter, then post back here when it arrives. The letter may well hint at the possibility of an out-of-court settlement.

How will I know if they are hinting at an out of court settlement?

 

[bb21]

No and no. The letter may give some clues however I would say that it will likely cost you a three-digit sum at least. The reason you cannot pay a Penalty Fare later is that it is not a fine. It is discretionary so when you couldn't pay it, it can be withdrawn and the matter submitted for investigation

 

[Dave1987]

You wouldn't believe amount of ppl who sit in first class trying to get away with it then claim they didn't know they were in first class despite all the signs plastered over the first class area! Like everyone else has said wait for the letter to know how FCC are going to play it. When you say he was in a "bad mood" how do you know he hadn't just been called all the names under the sun by some little scrote trying to fare evade. Very difficult for them at times!

 

[bb21]

I think the allegation about "bad mood" can be safely ingored.

 

[Dave1987]

Indeed

 

[GodAtum]

I'm sorry to say I depise people who do this as they take seats away from paying passengers.

 

[Goatboy]

Perhaps make a case to your employer that they should pay for First Class travel for you in future if you are expected to be able to do important work and receive important calls even when travelling at peak time.

This is the main reason people pay extra for First Class on FCC trains, the standard of accomodation is barely any better than Standard but you do you get a quieter environment which is useful for work.

 

[wilsontown]

You wouldn't believe amount of ppl who sit in first class trying to get away with it then claim they didn't know they were in first class despite all the signs plastered over the first class area!

Having managed to do this myself, it can sometimes genuinely happen. I was in a rush to get on the train, which was a London Midland 350/2, and sat down in first class, which didn't look any different to standard class on, say, a TPE 185. I did realise before the guard came around, luckily. Clearly there are plenty of signs and labels, but it is possible to genuinely miss them.

 

[GodAtum]

Having managed to do this myself, it can sometimes genuinely happen. I was in a rush to get on the train, which was a London Midland 350/2, and sat down in first class, which didn't look any different to standard class on, say, a TPE 185. I did realise before the guard came around, luckily. Clearly there are plenty of signs and labels, but it is possible to genuinely miss them.

I can understand but I guess you took the time to look at the trains signs to make sure this was your correct train? If you did that then you would have had time to see the 1st class signs? I dont mean to have a go at you, just using you as an example.

 

[222007]

Of course always the RPI who's in a bad mood or in the wrong. This makes me sick. Anyone ever consider we do an almost impossible job? We do make mistakes (fcc not being my employer) but can anybody on this forum hand on heart say they have never made a mistake? However in this situation it sounds like the RPI was bang on

 

[jon0844]

Having managed to do this myself, it can sometimes genuinely happen. I was in a rush to get on the train, which was a London Midland 350/2, and sat down in first class, which didn't look any different to standard class on, say, a TPE 185. I did realise before the guard came around, luckily. Clearly there are plenty of signs and labels, but it is possible to genuinely miss them.

I can't comment on every class of train, but FCC trains are pretty obvious.

There was one exception, where FCC had recently cleaned/refreshed a train and hadn't put up any '1' stickers anywhere inside the 317/1 FC compartment and only had the older signs on the outside.

Now, with a manual sliding door that was open, it was possible to innocently walk in and not know it was first class because all the seats were taken, thus covering the only other way of being warned - the first class antimacassars.

This was a one off, and some time ago. IF that had been the situation here, where someone had claimed to have been in FC without realising then there might have been some defence - and I would have, upon being caught for this, have taken LOTS of photographs of the train to prove my defence afterwards.

But it wasn't. This was a case of knowingly upgrading and then saying it was sods law for being caught.

 

[Eagle]

Picture: LM 350s' FC sections aren't the most obviously marked (and it doesn't help that first class is at one end of the second coach of four), but they do still have the tell-tale sign of antimacassars* :P

*at least that's what I assume the large sheets of uncomfortable kitchen paper are meant to be.

 

[michael769]

As the OP has admitted that they knew they had entered the first class area the question of there being adequate signage does not arise.

 

[GNER 91128]

Picture: LM 350s' FC sections aren't the most obviously marked (and it doesn't help that first class is at one end of the second coach of four), but they do still have the tell-tale sign of antimacassars* :P

*at least that's what I assume the large sheets of uncomfortable kitchen paper are meant to be.

Ooooooo that looks much nicer than the shabby FC on FCC!

 

[GodAtum]

I have complained to Southern about people sitting in the wrong class of seating but I still have seen an RPI on my train in months!

 

[All Line Rover]

Refusing the Penalty Fare was a very bad idea. A 'Penalty Fare' is, as indicated in the name, a 'penalty' for making a mistake - in this case, sitting in First Class with a Standard Class ticket. You admit to making that mistake, so it's strange to refuse the penalty. Leaving your wallet at work whilst (apparently) on the way home is very odd - especially as most people keep their season ticket and photocard in their wallet.

Anyway, as other's have pointed out, it is worth looking at other threads on this forum which discuss potential prosecutions. There are plenty of these threads, most of which contain valuable advice and there is little more that can be added here.

Considering the frequency with which these threads crop up, do the admins not think it would be worth consolidating the important information from these threads in a single 'sticky' thread? It's an important topic so I'm sure a consolidated thread would help many people.

 

[Dave1987]

Think that would be an excellent idea.

 

[Wath Yard]

Picture: LM 350s' FC sections aren't the most obviously marked (and it doesn't help that first class is at one end of the second coach of four), but they do still have the tell-tale sign of antimacassars* :P

*at least that's what I assume the large sheets of uncomfortable kitchen paper are meant to be.

Is that a joke? Except for having a footman at the door saying 'Welcome to first class Sir/Madam' I don't see how it could be more obvious.

 

[GodAtum]

Is that a joke? Except for having a footman at the door saying 'Welcome to first class Sir/Madam' I don't see how it could be more obvious.

Mmmm might be a job idea there

 

[LexyBoy]

Refusing the Penalty Fare was a very bad idea. A 'Penalty Fare' is, as indicated in the name, a 'penalty' for making a mistake - in this case, sitting in First Class with a Standard Class ticket. You admit to making that mistake, so it's strange to refuse the penalty.

OP didn't refuse to pay the PF though, they had left their wallet at work. I'll grant that a lot of threads do start off with something along the lines of "I told them that it was an honest mistake and refused to pay the fine [PF]".

Leaving your wallet at work whilst (apparently) on the way home is very odd - especially as most people keep their season ticket and photocard in their wallet.

Really? There are countless times when I've realised that I have left my wallet at home when going to buy lunch. I tend not to leave it at work, but it would be easy to do if one kept items on/in a desk rather than one's pockets.

I advise against keeping tickets in a wallet for this very reason - if you lose your wallet at the wrong time you could find yourself on a train with no ticket, no money and facing a potential criminal record. If you're very unlucky.

I agree that having some advice in a sticky could be useful - but generally when people post here it's already too late. The most important piece of advice would be pay the PF or bad things happen.

 

[W230]

Of course always the RPI who's in a bad mood or in the wrong.

A valid point. So many of the posts seem to include, "the RPI was in a bad mood and victimised me, when he could have just showed me discretion...etc..."

 

[HST Power]

I'm sorry to say I depise people who do this as they take seats away from paying passengers.

I agree! It's about time FCC sort out First Class fare dodgers. I've seen hordes of them, and it makes me feel cheated.

One thing occured to me.....why not just stand up to take the call in the First Class cabin, and then leave? Why sit down? I take it the inspector saw you when you were seated and then reprimanded you. Were you off the phone when this occured?

Nonetheless, if you have a Standard ticket, you shouldn't be in First full stop.

 

[Ferret]

A valid point. So many of the posts seem to include, "the RPI was in a bad mood and victimised me, when he could have just showed me discretion...etc..."

People have an unrealistic expectation that when they get caught doing something wrong, they'll be allowed to get away with it. Well sorry folks, it doesn't work like that any more.