Help - Sitting in First class with Standard Class ticket

[kangzy]

Thanks for all your comments and advice,

My intention was not to offend anybody by the comment "bad mood". If I did, I apologise, it was merely my personal observation at the time. I am not debating that I was in the wrong and yes - you are right the ticket inspector was just doing his job.

I did forget my wallet at work as I have done many a time hence why i keep them separate. I did not refuse to pay the PC but admitted when asked that i had no money to pay for the fine at that moment in time.

Once I receive the letter I am hoping you guys/girls will be able to offer me some advice on how to respond?

Thanks everyone
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree! It's about time FCC sort out First Class fare dodgers. I've seen hordes of them, and it makes me feel cheated.

One thing occured to me.....why not just stand up to take the call in the First Class cabin, and then leave? Why sit down? I take it the inspector saw you when you were seated and then reprimanded you. Were you off the phone when this occured?

Nonetheless, if you have a Standard ticket, you shouldn't be in First full stop.

I dont know why i sat down -habit i guess. Yes, I was still on the phone when I was approached by the inspector.

 

[Dave1987]

That perfectly ok I'm sure once you have the letter lots of ppl will give you good advice. With RPI's you just have to realise that they have an incredibly hard job and have to treat everyone the same. I've stood listening to ppl who have been deliberately trying to fare evade calling an RPI a jobs worth, calling him the 'c' word and using the 'f' word several times in every sentence. Is it any wonder they are a bit "less polite" at times?

 

[jon0844]

There is no 1628 to Cambridge from King's Cross or Finsbury Park, so I am guessing it was the 1632 service (which calls at FPK at 1637) and would have first class - so not declassified.

It runs fast from Finsbury Park to Potters Bar, then Hatfield, so I really can't imagine you got very long to make your call (or take your call) and presumably you had to cut it short if the first tunnel by New Southgate didn't do it for you.

Why didn't you then at least leave first class and go back to standard?

Or if the RPI boarded with you at FPK (more likely than being on there from KGX in my experience) then you must have been done instantly as they'll nearly always start in first class in the peak, given the fact that the gates are usually in operation so most people will have a ticket - just not necessarily one for first class.

If so, did he wait for you to finish your call?

 

[kangzy]

That perfectly ok I'm sure once you have the letter lots of ppl will give you good advice. With RPI's you just have to realise that they have an incredibly hard job and have to treat everyone the same. I've stood listening to ppl who have been deliberately trying to fare evade calling an RPI a jobs worth, calling him the 'c' word and using the 'f' word several times in every sentence. Is it any wonder they are a bit "less polite" at times?

Thanks Dave.

There is no 1628 to Cambridge from King's Cross or Finsbury Park, so I am guessing it was the 1632 service (which calls at FPK at 1637) and would have first class - so not declassified.

It runs fast from Finsbury Park to Potters Bar, then Hatfield, so I really can't imagine you got very long to make your call (or take your call) and presumably you had to cut it short if the first tunnel by New Southgate didn't do it for you.

Why didn't you then at least leave first class and go back to standard?

Or if the RPI boarded with you at FPK (more likely than being on there from KGX in my experience) then you must have been done instantly as they'll nearly always start in first class in the peak, given the fact that the gates are usually in operation so most people will have a ticket - just not necessarily one for first class.

If so, did he wait for you to finish your call?

Sorry yes, the 16.37 I often get confused.

My phone literally just rang as I got on the train. As I couldnt hear the candidate from all the noise and the bad reception (overseas call) I foolishly decided to sit in first single seat available without checking which happened to be the first class section. Within no more than minute the inspector was standing over me to and asked me for my ticket. I produced the ticket whilst swiftly trying to end the call. I explained my mistake and offered to move back to standard class but he wouldnt let me and the asked me at that point to pay the PC. When I couldnt find my wallet he sat me in first as the train was packed and took my details.

When responding to the letter I am sure I will receive shortly.. would you recommend that I mention exactly what happened as above? Or simply apologise and say I was in the wrong and offer to compensate for any inconvenience caused?

 

[snail]

I advise against keeping tickets in a wallet for this very reason - if you lose your wallet at the wrong time you could find yourself on a train with no ticket, no money and facing a potential criminal record. If you're very unlucky.

Absolutely. I sometimes have season and wallet in the same pocket but it lessens the chance of losing both. It also means I don't have to flash my wallet when presenting my ticket, it stays safely in my pocket.

 

[tony6499]

I'm sure if you showed your phone record then that would back the story up and give a mitigating reason.

 

[Dave1987]

Thanks Dave.

When responding to the letter I am sure I will receive shortly.. would you recommend that I mention exactly what happened as above? Or simply apologise and say I was in the wrong and offer to compensate for any inconvenience caused?

Wait until you have received the letter and see exactly what it says then come back to this forum as we are all only speculating on what FCC are going to do.

 

[Ferret]

I'm sure if you showed your phone record then that would back the story up and give a mitigating reason.

It makes no difference to the matter at hand.

 

[causton]

I'm sure if you showed your phone record then that would back the story up and give a mitigating reason.

Unfortunately for FCC you either get away with it or you get the book thrown at you, and "I had to make a phone call" will not wash with them.

However.

Your case details could be lost, they might forget to process it, they may decide not to go any further, something else might happen which means they may not even get back to you! To the OP: Post back when/if FCC sends you a letter about it. Till then, try not to worry too much... as it seems an out of court settlement will be offered by them for some cases such as these...

 

[Squaddie]

I foolishly decided to sit in first single seat available without checking which happened to be the first class section.

That's not quite what you said in your opening post:

I couldnt hear the candidate as it was so noisy so I stupidly decided to sit in a first class seat to take the call.

 

[island]

I'm sure if you showed your phone record then that would back the story up and give a mitigating reason.

No it wouldn't.

 

[tony6499]

No it wouldn't.

At least it would prove what you said to the RPI that the reason you went into the 1st class was to take an important phone call was true.

 

[Ferret]

At least it would prove what you said to the RPI that the reason you went into the 1st class was to take an important phone call was true.

You seem to be under the false impression that the OP's excuse for being in FC has any relevance to the strict liability matter of sitting in First Class on a Standard ticket. To be clear, it has no relevance whatsoever - needing to take a phone call is not a legitimate defence in law.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You seem to be under the false impression that the OP's excuse for being in FC has any relevance to the strict liability matter of sitting in First Class on a Standard ticket. To be clear, it has no relevance whatsoever - needing to take a phone call is not a legitimate defence in law.

Exactly.

I'm sure if you showed your phone record then that would back the story up and give a mitigating reason.

It would not.

 

[Greenback]

At least it would prove what you said to the RPI that the reason you went into the 1st class was to take an important phone call was true.

I'm afraid that is completely irrelevant to the matter in hand.

 

[tony6499]

I'm afraid that is completely irrelevant to the matter in hand.

Then why would he mention it to the RPO ? I know it is black and white in the eyes of the law, he went in 1st class with a std class ticket and would have been better accepting the penalty fare.

I always thought he could accept a penalty fare and pay within a certain time which would have alleviated the problem with the forgotten wallet.

 

[Darandio]

Then why would he mention it to the RPO ?

Because at the time it was in the hope they could get off with it, an entirely understandable and probably automatic reaction.

But it becomes completely irrelevant and isn't useful now.

 

[island]

I always thought he could accept a penalty fare and pay within a certain time which would have alleviated the problem with the forgotten wallet.

That would only have been possible if he could have paid the price of an FDS straight away.

 

[kangzy]

Guys/Girls,

As expected i have received "the notice of intention to prosecute"

The letter reads as follows

On this date "your details were taken by a Revenue Protection inspector en route near Potters bar Station, on board the 16.32 train from Kings Cross station to Cambridge Station.

This letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the Magistrates Court and enclosed form provides you with the opportunity to tell us what happened from your point of view, information should be both factual and honest.

Travel fraud costs the rail industry over £400 million per year and First Capital Connect has a zero tolerance approach to fare evasion on our network. We always ask that the courts impose the maximum penalty for offenders, which can include the following:

• A Criminal record
• Fine of up to £1000
• Prison sentence
• suspended sentence
• Community service
• Seizure of any computer equipment (if involved)
• Compensation
• Costs

You must reply to this letter using the attached document within 14days of the above date.

Please DO NOT send any money with your reply'.

Your sincerely,

Prosecutions Manager



Details of the offence:

On the above date you were stopped and questioned in regard to the following alleged offence

Remain in a reserved seat, Berth or train without an appropriation ticket"

Can someone please advice what I should do/reply? As I am very very worried about this going to court.

Any advice would be greatly greatly appreciated

 

[jon0844]

Don't deny you did it, apologise and seek an out of court settlement - which will be a three figure sum. Pay that and it won't go to court.

Although it is NOT going to be a defence you might want to say you went in to first class because you had to take an important call and that it was noisy outside. Say it was a moment of madness and you didn't truly appreciate the severity of the offence and that you will never do it again. I presume at this stage you've got no record with any TOC on file for any previous offences and it does explain why you did it, even if there's still no excuse.

Chances are they'll not see any benefit taking it to court first time if you're really apologetic, even though they've got a 100% cast iron prosecution if they wanted to. Obviously if you're caught again for anything else in the future, expect them to do so without hesitation.

I am surprised it says it was near Potters Bar though, as I thought it happened almost immediately after leaving Finsbury Park? (Around 1 minute in you said). Not that I expect this will mean anything significant or be a way of trying to get out of it.

However, it does make me wonder why you were still in there to make/take a call after such time that you had gone through countless tunnels and your call would have been long concluded - whether you liked it or not. I can't help but feel you chose to stay in first class thinking you wouldn't get caught (hence the 'sods law' comment) and FCC might well believe you have done this before.

Thankfully, they have no proof of that but it might well make them decide how to proceed, as is their right.

I think the "information should be both factual and honest" bit in the letter above should be taken very seriously!

 

[Greenback]

Because at the time it was in the hope they could get off with it, an entirely understandable and probably automatic reaction.

But it becomes completely irrelevant and isn't useful now.

Indeed. It would have been relevant at the time, as a kindly member of staff may have exercised discretion. Though that might be unlikely, it was probably worth mentioning, but being able to probe that a call was taken at that time would have absolutley no bearing on any decisions taken now. Which is the main thing here.

I also endorse the advie given by jonmorris0844 above. The Op should give a factual account, apologise for what they have done, and give an assurance that the lesson has been learnt and they will not do the same thing again. In addition to this, they should offer to compensate FCC for their losses, both int erms of the fare, and for the time and troubel that has been taken to deal with it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree.

Referring back to your opening post, the only other element from that report which you could add is that you regret having left your wallet at work. Otherwise, no excuses and no accusations.

 

[455driver]

Are the 365s fitted with on board CCTV?
If they are then it is possible that they have pulled the tapes to see exactly when you went in there!

The CCTV on SWT is HD quality, not sure about other set ups.

 

[A-driver]

365s do not have any CCTV fitted.

 

[455driver]

Fair enough, its just that a lot of old trains have been retro-fitted.

 

[A-driver]

365s will start getting CCTV in April when they get their overhauls. They are the only one left in the GN fleet without CCTV and front facing cameras.

 

[kangzy]

thanks for all your advice.. could someone please proof read my letter before I send it?

Just to clarify I took the call as soon as I got on the train but by the time the inspector had questioned me and took my details we were probably at Potters Bar.

 

[MKB]

I am interested that the offence is described as "Remain in a reserved seat, Berth or train without an appropriation ticket".

Presuambly the drafters of this offence intended to differentiate between temporarily occupying a seat and occupying it for an extended duration. This would also explain why some TOCs, like Virgin, don't take action against people who move once their error is pointed out.

Does the OP not have a defence on the grounds of not having remained in the seat? For what %age of the journey was the OP in first class?

 

[Qwerty133]

Don't deny you did it, apologise and seek an out of court settlement - which will be a three figure sum. Pay that and it won't go to court.

Although it is NOT going to be a defence you might want to say you went in to first class because you had to take an important call and that it was noisy outside. Say it was a moment of madness and you didn't truly appreciate the severity of the offence and that you will never do it again. I presume at this stage you've got no record with any TOC on file for any previous offences and it does explain why you did it, even if there's still no excuse.

Chances are they'll not see any benefit taking it to court first time if you're really apologetic, even though they've got a 100% cast iron prosecution if they wanted to. Obviously if you're caught again for anything else in the future, expect them to do so without hesitation.

I am surprised it says it was near Potters Bar though, as I thought it happened almost immediately after leaving Finsbury Park? (Around 1 minute in you said). Not that I expect this will mean anything significant or be a way of trying to get out of it.

However, it does make me wonder why you were still in there to make/take a call after such time that you had gone through countless tunnels and your call would have been long concluded - whether you liked it or not. I can't help but feel you chose to stay in first class thinking you wouldn't get caught (hence the 'sods law' comment) and FCC might well believe you have done this before.

Thankfully, they have no proof of that but it might well make them decide how to proceed, as is their right.

I think the "information should be both factual and honest" bit in the letter above should be taken very seriously!

Was the seat reserved? there letter doesn't even mention what you have actually done? I would probably just deny sitting in a reserved seat and not even mention being in first on a standard ticket

 

[jon0844]

It doesn't just say seat though. Surely they are referring to berth?

It would be very risky to try and be cheeky and get off on a technicality, considering I am sure FCC isn't doing this for the first time!