Help requested. Christmas sleeper train 1923

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes, as others have said, away travel wasn't a thing - pre WW2 at least - and it was more common for fans to catch another local match on a day when their team was playing away.

That carried on for some time. Certainly in the Sixties, quite a few football supporters in Manchester would watch Manchester City at home one week and then Manchester United the next. Not often were both teams at home on the same afternoon, other than maybe in the earlier rounds of the FA Cup. The only 'away days' would be the occasional FA Cup semi-final or FA Cup final.

 

[James Dutton]

Interesting subject! As mentioned earlier Thompson did replace your grandfather for the boxing day match.

One thing I have learnt after asking lots of questions on here is that during holidays, people were prepared to get up very early even for just a day trip. I have examples of trippers leaving at no less than 3am! from East Lancashire to have a day out in North Wales returning home at around 9pm. The other thing to note is railway companies were very switched on to events such as football matches. It's very likely there was at least one train from London up to Huddersfield for Spurs fans to watch the game, possibly taking the team with them.

I don't know how Jimmy got to where he was going but if there was a football special and he was on it I could easily imagine Jimmy arriving at Huddersfield say around 9am. From there you could assume he'd be in good time for an onward train to get to the wedding.


James, it's a good question. As it's Christmas time there could well have been a brass band playing, some sort of religious ceremony before the game, or maybe sadly a former Huddersfield player had recently died?

Andy.

I know that Thompson replaced my grandfather, but JS was one of the first names on the teamsheet, and isn't known to have been injured, which is why I think he asked to attend his sister's wedding up in the North East.

I don't believe he would have jumped on the Huddersfield train with the Spurs team because that would have involved him having a more complicated journey, as this 1928 map shows. Of course I could be wrong.

PS My profile picture is the only known photo of Minnie Seed in her football strip.

 

[Gloster]

One thought was whether he knew in advance that he could go to the wedding or had to wait until after the Christmas Day match. Would the manager say in advance that he could go and could leave immediately after the Christmas Day match? Or would he have told him that the final decision as to whether he could miss the trip to Huddersfield would have to wait until after they had checked that nobody had picked up any injuries in the Christmas Day match?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One thought was whether he knew in advance that he could go to the wedding or had to wait until after the Christmas Day match. Would the manager say in advance that he could go and could leave immediately after the Christmas Day match? Or would he have told him that the final decision as to whether he could miss the trip to Huddersfield would have to wait until after they had checked that nobody had picked up any injuries in the Christmas Day match?

Would have been easy enough for Tottenham to draft in an additional player from their London Combination side, if needs be.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I know that Thompson replaced my grandfather, but JS was one of the first names on the teamsheet, and isn't known to have been injured, which is why I think he asked to attend his sister's wedding up in the North East.

I don't believe he would have jumped on the Huddersfield train with the Spurs team because that would have involved him having a more complicated journey, as this 1928 map shows. Of course I could be wrong.

PS My profile picture is the only known photo of Minnie Seed in her football strip.

Looking at the 1920 Bradshaw, on a normal weekday, you could leave Huddersfield at 0750 and be in Newcastle for 1113 changing at Leeds New (now City) and York, so not that complicated. Whether any of these trains ran on Boxing Day is another matter of course.

 

[Gloster]

I know that Thompson replaced my grandfather, but JS was one of the first names on the teamsheet, and isn't known to have been injured, which is why I think he asked to attend his sister's wedding up in the North East.

I don't believe he would have jumped on the Huddersfield train with the Spurs team because that would have involved him having a more complicated journey, as this 1928 map shows. Of course I could be wrong.

PS My profile picture is the only known photo of Minnie Seed in her football strip.

A rather odd map that: seemingly classifying Hereford-Brecon-Swansea and Carmarthen-Milford as more important than Rugby-Birmingham and Crewe-Preston-Carlisle. Also it is from 1928, by which time the Big Four had started to reorganise their services, whereas in 1923 they were still operating to pre-grouping patterns.

 

[Taunton]

Christmas was a busy time on the railway; for the Post Office Christmas Eve was the busiest collection of the year, and they tried to have it all delivered on Christmas Day. None of this last post date at the end of November. There will have been enormous overnight mail traffic, no doubt extra vans and possible extra trains.

This on top of a peak travel demand that came very late. My mother worked in a bank in the City of London, but went home to Taunton for Christmas. There was absolutely no prospect of anybody leaving one minute before 5.30, so off to Paddington just for "the next one", where there were enormous queues and extra services, arriving at the house late. Back late on Boxing Day, because you had to be back in the office and at your desk at 9.00 on the 27th.

Regarding football, I don't know one end of the ball from the other, and was thus the despair of our school sports master, but at university in Edinburgh we once travelled in the 1970s to a significant event with colleagues at Aberdeen University on a midwinter Saturday afternoon. Set off in the morning by car but it started to snow heavily so we abandoned it at Dundee and took the train onwards. Now with the novelty of being on expenses we went to the restaurant car for lunch, which I would guess was (like the rest of the train) normally hardly patronised on a Saturday. The only other occupants were a large group of footballers from one of the mainstream Glasgow teams, someone said that the main team from Aberdeen had gone down to Glasgow, and the "Reserve" team then went the other way, to play the Aberdeen Reserve team, I don't know whether in front of spectators or not. You lot will know better whether this was common. Anyway the chef was suddenly confronted with an unexpectedly near-full car, and rose splendidly to the occasion. The reserve footballers seemed a bit of a dreary lot, all in identical suits, and notwithstanding the sustaining lunch doubtless were depressed further looking at the weather outside.

 

[stuving]

I know that Thompson replaced my grandfather, but JS was one of the first names on the teamsheet, and isn't known to have been injured, which is why I think he asked to attend his sister's wedding up in the North East.

I'd agree with that - I can see some evidence to support Jimmy Seed being not selected for Boxing Day by agreement. For one thing players' injuries get a lot of coverage, even if still able to pay. Jimmy twisted his ankle playing against Blackburn on 15th December 1923, but many newspapers report that he was fit to play on 22nd, despite this being in question. Incidentally, one report on that first game says it was extremely violent, though that was not the cause of Jimmy's injury.

So the fact that Jimmy's replacement for 26th was much reported, but never with any reason, suggests to me that it wasn't an injury. And at last one report does say his absence was a weakness. So that all fits with this being for personal reasons, which it was not seen as proper to discuss in the papers.

Yorkshire Evening Post 26 December 1923 p6

 

[James Dutton]

A rather odd map that: seemingly classifying Hereford-Brecon-Swansea and Carmarthen-Milford as more important than Rugby-Birmingham and Crewe-Preston-Carlisle. Also it is from 1928, by which time the Big Four had started to reorganise their services, whereas in 1923 they were still operating to pre-grouping patterns.

I need a better map. This one was just a guide. It does show the route of his jouney from London to Sunderland or Newcastle though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2025 ==

Christmas was a busy time on the railway; for the Post Office Christmas Eve was the busiest collection of the year, and they tried to have it all delivered on Christmas Day. None of this last post date at the end of November. There will have been enormous overnight mail traffic, no doubt extra vans and possible extra trains.

This on top of a peak travel demand that came very late. My mother worked in a bank in the City of London, but went home to Taunton for Christmas. There was absolutely no prospect of anybody leaving one minute before 5.30, so off to Paddington just for "the next one", where there were enormous queues and extra services, arriving at the house late. Back late on Boxing Day, because you had to be back in the office and at your desk at 9.00 on the 27th.

Regarding football, I don't know one end of the ball from the other, and was thus the despair of our school sports master, but at university in Edinburgh we once travelled in the 1970s to a significant event with colleagues at Aberdeen University on a midwinter Saturday afternoon. Set off in the morning by car but it started to snow heavily so we abandoned it at Dundee and took the train onwards. Now with the novelty of being on expenses we went to the restaurant car for lunch, which I would guess was (like the rest of the train) normally hardly patronised on a Saturday. The only other occupants were a large group of footballers from one of the mainstream Glasgow teams, someone said that the main team from Aberdeen had gone down to Glasgow, and the "Reserve" team then went the other way, to play the Aberdeen Reserve team, I don't know whether in front of spectators or not. You lot will know better whether this was common. Anyway the chef was suddenly confronted with an unexpectedly near-full car, and rose splendidly to the occasion. The reserve footballers seemed a bit of a dreary lot, all in identical suits, and notwithstanding the sustaining lunch doubtless were depressed further looking at the weather outside.

Nice stories. And yes, I'd heard that footballer were expectedto look smart when they travelled, as they were representing the Club.

The Reserves teams travelling 'the other way' makes perfect sense.

 

[Dave W]

I'd agree with that - I can see some evidence to support Jimmy Seed being not selected for Boxing Day by agreement. For one thing players' injuries get a lot of coverage, even if still able to pay. Jimmy twisted his ankle playing against Blackburn on 15th December 1923, but many newspapers report that he was fit to play on 22nd, despite this being in question. Incidentally, one report on that first game says it was extremely violent, though that was not the cause of Jimmy's injury.

So the fact that Jimmy's replacement for 26th was much reported, but never with any reason, suggests to me that it wasn't an injury. And at last one report does say his absence was a weakness. So that all fits with this being for personal reasons, which it was not seen as proper to discuss in the papers.
View attachment 192341
Yorkshire Evening Post 26 December 1923 p6

Of course in the case of the YEP it may well have been the writer simply didn't know the reason.

I'm minded now to agree that he probably didn't go *with* the team to Huddersfield, but perhaps they all got the train from White Hart Lane to town first!

Given as it was 1923, I wonder how much "stuff" came with the team - these days there's so much gear that it often comes separately to the team bus. It probably would have been a couple of balls and a bag of kit then!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Given as it was 1923, I wonder how much "stuff" came with the team - these days there's so much gear that it often comes separately to the team bus. It probably would have been a couple of balls and a bag of kit then!

Possibly the team kit was conveyed as luggage, in a big, sturdy wicker laundry hamper, or similar. Be heavy if it wasn't on castors.

 

[6Gman]

Possibly the team kit was conveyed as luggage, in a big, sturdy wicker laundry hamper, or similar. Be heavy if it wasn't on castors.

Worth remembering that the railway was widely used by theatre companies and the like so 15 or more passengers accompanied by substantial amounts of luggage would not be unusual.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2025 ==

The nearest timetable I can find is 1934 so not terribly helpful, but ...

If Christmas Day was a Sunday service then:

5.50pm Kings X-Newcastle arr 11.20pm, dep 11.30pm Sunderland arr 11.55pm

Since the 5.50 was the first train since 12.30 I suspect the connection from Newcastle would be held!

 

[James Dutton]

Worth remembering that the railway was widely used by theatre companies and the like so 15 or more passengers accompanied by substantial amounts of luggage would not be unusual.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2025 ==

The nearest timetable I can find is 1934 so not terribly helpful, but ...

If Christmas Day was a Sunday service then:

5.50pm Kings X-Newcastle arr 11.20pm, dep 11.30pm Sunderland arr 11.55pm

Since the 5.50 was the first train since 12.30 I suspect the connection from Newcastle would be held!

Even though that timetable was from a decade later would the journey times have altered much in the intervening period? The Flying Scotsman locomotive was introduced on that route in early 1922 I believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2025 ==

I'd agree with that - I can see some evidence to support Jimmy Seed being not selected for Boxing Day by agreement. For one thing players' injuries get a lot of coverage, even if still able to pay. Jimmy twisted his ankle playing against Blackburn on 15th December 1923, but many newspapers report that he was fit to play on 22nd, despite this being in question. Incidentally, one report on that first game says it was extremely violent, though that was not the cause of Jimmy's injury.

So the fact that Jimmy's replacement for 26th was much reported, but never with any reason, suggests to me that it wasn't an injury. And at last one report does say his absence was a weakness. So that all fits with this being for personal reasons, which it was not seen as proper to discuss in the papers.
View attachment 192341
Yorkshire Evening Post 26 December 1923 p6

That's great sleuthing, and fits my narative perfectly!

 

[Gloster]

Even though that timetable was from a decade later would the journey times have altered much in the intervening period? The Flying Scotsman locomotive was introduced on that route in early 1922 I believe.

I don’t know how much the OP knows about railway history, but there is a relevant matter here. In 1923 (officially 1st January, but spread over two and a half years) almost all the private railway companies in Britain outside London were combined into four (still private) companies (The Grouping). Previously the pattern of routes had been greatly influenced by the keeping of traffic on your own company’s rails and serving ‘its’ towns and cities. There were routes across two or more companies lines, but this wasn’t the basis of thinking. My feeling is that there were little changes in the first year or so of the Grouping as the new companies were taking stock and combing the various departments: it was only later that they got round to modifying the pattern of routes. (A very simple explanation.)

That is why the times I have given were based on the July 1922 timetable as I doubt that there were many changes between then and Christmas 1923. There might have been, particularly on a prestige route such as the East Coast Main Line, but one has to work with what one has.

 

[James Dutton]

Jimmy Seed was gassed for a second time just before the end of WW1. He was sent to Sheffield Hospital.

I'm trying to work out if his family might have visited him in hospital, but it seems unlikely as the journey looked very complicated (not to mention expensive, for a working-class family).

As a non-expert, it seems to me that travelling between Sunderland and Sheffield by train would have involved either travelling west to Carlisle and then taking a train south.
Or taking a train from Sunderland to a major hub, such as Doncaster or Leeds (which would have involved a change of train), and then catching another connecting train to Sheffield.

I'm leaning towards saying that that would have been too difficult for the family. Am I right do you think?

 

[Gloster]

It is highly unlikely that they would go across to Carlisle. From Sunderland or East Boldon it could be via Newcastle (change) and York or Doncaster (change). A slightly more likely alternative is Sunderland to Leeds on one of the through trains and change there for Sheffield: probably around four to five hours.

Not an easy journey if they weren’t used to travelling, but in those times and circumstances they would have been likely to have received little bits of help from staff and passengers to see them through. Staff at most large stations were probably used to seeing people wandering around looking lost and would help them to visit one of ‘our brave boys’ in hospital. I think that families were often issued warrants to visit wounded soldiers, but I don’t know how this worked.

 

[James Dutton]

It is highly unlikely that they would go across to Carlisle. From Sunderland or East Boldon it could be via Newcastle (change) and York or Doncaster (change). A slightly more likely alternative is Sunderland to Leeds on one of the through trains and change there for Sheffield: probably around four to five hours.

Not an easy journey if they weren’t used to travelling, but in those times and circumstances they would have been likely to have received little bits of help from staff and passengers to see them through. Staff at most large stations were probably used to seeing people wandering around looking lost and would help them to visit one of ‘our brave boys’ in hospital. I think that families were often issued warrants to visit wounded soldiers, but I don’t know how this worked.

Thanks Gloster, the possibilty that they'd be 'helped on their way' is one I hadn't thought of.

 

[6Gman]

Jimmy Seed was gassed for a second time just before the end of WW1. He was sent to Sheffield Hospital.

I'm trying to work out if his family might have visited him in hospital, but it seems unlikely as the journey looked very complicated (not to mention expensive, for a working-class family).

As a non-expert, it seems to me that travelling between Sunderland and Sheffield by train would have involved either travelling west to Carlisle and then taking a train south.
Or taking a train from Sunderland to a major hub, such as Doncaster or Leeds (which would have involved a change of train), and then catching another connecting train to Sheffield.

I'm leaning towards saying that that would have been too difficult for the family. Am I right do you think?

I don't know about c.1917/18 but in later years there were through trains from Newcastle to Sheffield.

Have now traced that as early as 1906 there was an 0930 Newcastle - Cardiff which reached Sheffield at 1244 so a pretty good service!

 

[James Dutton]

I don't know about c.1917/18 but in later years there were through trains from Newcastle to Sheffield.

Have now traced that as early as 1906 there was an 0930 Newcastle - Cardiff which reached Sheffield at 1244 so a pretty good service!

Oh wow, that makes it quite doable then. Thanks for that info. I shall weave it into the narrative as apossible option.

PS My old map is a bit of a let down!

 

[Gloster]

Oh wow, that makes it quite doable then. Thanks for that info. I shall weave it into the narrative as apossible option.

PS My old map is a bit of a let down!

Still running in 1922, but arrival time at Sheffield Midland is 13.23. I just wonder if they might have taken the train south from Sunderland, rather than going in to Newcastle, as it might be cheaper.

 

[WesternLancer]

PS My old map is a bit of a let down!

Actually I was going to comment on the map you uploaded earlier so this is prompt for me to post.

Not sure where you sourced that from but it looks to me like the sort of simplified map of the railways that might be used in an atlas / text book or something like that - so perhaps not the sort of map a passenger at the time would probably use to plan a journey.

As mentioned upthread the 'pre grouping' railway companies had a tendency to produce maps that visually emphasised their own routes (often over emphasised them!) whilst leaving off or diminishing the routes of their competitor companies. So if you found a map at your local station (poster for example) it would not likely look like the one you posted in my opinion.

But since you are talking about the north east it's an excuse to post a link to the superb NE Railway ceramic tile maps they produced - a few of which still exist in situ today

Here we are - you should be able to zoom in on this example for clarity:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co211094/ceramic-tile-map-of-north-eastern-railway

You can see
a) how the visual style draws the eye to their routes, as well as
b) seeing the section to Sheffield indicating that the NER had 'running powers' to get there (ie an agreement with another railway company to use the track to run a train to/from Sheffield)

Graphically all the railway companies probably did this style of map, even if not many did such impressive tiles ones as this but several did (some with maps quite egregiously distorting the importance of some of their routes vs others but that's off topic)

In planning a train trip one might also consult a Bradshaw Timetable, but I am not sure if a working class household that didn't need to travel often by train would have one (but a library probably would) - so would probably be a case of just going to the station ticket office and asking for assistance in booking the ticket by the favoured route, with the staff giving some advice. Passenger may or may not have consulted a map displayed at the station too.

I've no idea of fares in WW1 era for that journey to Sheffield - maybe someone can advise

Once again - many thanks for starting this thread - I know little about football or the history of the sport - but have very much enjoyed reading the thread and your own insights into your family history from your research. Great work on your part.

It also sounds like Minnie Seed was an interesting and pioneering character!

EDIT
Lancs and Yorks railway tiled map at Manchester Victoria might be of interest given the Huddersfield discussion earlier!

File:Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway map at Victoria Station.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

comparing the two (L&Y and NER) illustrates the point about visual route emphasis I think.

 

[Gloster]

A very rough calculation (done from old gradient profiles) makes Sunderland-Sheffield via Hartlepool and Leeds 130 miles, with 133 from East Boldon. From East Boldon to Sheffield via Newcastle and the through train appears to be 141 miles from East Boldon and 144 from Sunderland. (This all presumes that my mental arithmetic hasn’t declined too much.)

If they took the through train from Newcastle it probably ran to the now-closed Sheffield Victoria.

 

[WesternLancer]

A very rough calculation (done from old gradient profiles) makes Sunderland-Sheffield via Hartlepool and Leeds 130 miles, with 133 from East Boldon. From East Boldon to Sheffield via Newcastle and the through train appears to be 141 miles from East Boldon and 144 from Sunderland. (This all presumes that my mental arithmetic hasn’t declined too much.)

If they took the through train from Newcastle it probably ran to the now-closed Sheffield Victoria.

would fares have been fairly closely related to mileage at that time?

 

[Gloster]

would fares have been fairly closely related to mileage at that time?

My understanding is that they were, but it is not an area that I am particular knowledgeable about, i.e. I really don’t know. There were some special fares and this might have included ones for family visiting war wounded or they might have been issued with some sort of warrant for the trip, but I would expect that these would probably have been for the shortest route only. There was of course the railways’ habit of routing traffic via their own or associated lines.

 

[WesternLancer]

My understanding is that they were, but it is not an area that I am particular knowledgeable about, i.e. I really don’t know. There were some special fares and this might have included ones for family visiting war wounded or they might have been issued with some sort of warrant for the trip, but I would expect that these would probably have been for the shortest route only. There was of course the railways’ habit of routing traffic via their own or associated lines.

Thanks for those thoughts.

 

[James Dutton]

Thanks everyone, you've all been immensley helpful. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions, as I'm still working on the Minnie chapter, and have yet to write the one on his relatively short England career, and one about the aftermath of his time at Charlton.
One of the saddest incidents occured on a train, and I'll post that when I've written it. It was just after he was sacked by Charlton in 1956 (prompting my mother to go into labour three weeks early because of the shock - hence my middle name being Charlton).

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks everyone, you've all been immensley helpful. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions, as I'm still working on the Minnie chapter, and have yet to write the one on his relatively short England career, and one about the aftermath of his time at Charlton.
One of the saddest incidents occured on a train, and I'll post that when I've written it. It was just after he was sacked by Charlton in 1956 (prompting my mother to go into labour three weeks early because of the shock - hence my middle name being Charlton).

Further to my earlier post I just read this piece you wrote about Minnie Seed, which was interesting and enjoyable to read.

https://www.wlv.ac.uk/research/research-centres/centre-for-historical-research/football-and-war-network/football-and-war-blog/2021/the-minnie-seed-story/

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don't know about c.1917/18 but in later years there were through trains from Newcastle to Sheffield.

Have now traced that as early as 1906 there was an 0930 Newcastle - Cardiff which reached Sheffield at 1244 so a pretty good service!

Put on as a "ports to ports" service , with an idea that it would be helpful for long distance mariners travelling from 2 very busy ports and a quite incredible piece of "marketing" for the era considering it was a non - London generic service. Deep research into maritime etc journals of the era would no doubt yield some information.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Put on as a "ports to ports" service , with an idea that it would be helpful for long distance mariners travelling from 2 very busy ports and a quite incredible piece of "marketing" for the era considering it was a non - London generic service. Deep research into maritime etc journals of the era would no doubt yield some information.

It had rather an 'exotic' routing coming off the GCR at Banbury too, running from King's Sutton via Chipping Norton and Kingham (A.L.) to Cheltenham (Leckhampton) and then on to Cardiff.

 

[James Dutton]

I don't know about c.1917/18 but in later years there were through trains from Newcastle to Sheffield.

Have now traced that as early as 1906 there was an 0930 Newcastle - Cardiff which reached Sheffield at 1244 so a pretty good service!

That's also very useful. After returning from the war having been gassed Jimmy was rejected by Sunderland who thought his lungs would never recover. Jimmy was doing a bit of labouring and feeling sorry for himself whenm out of the blue (in July 1919) came a letter from the manager of Mid Rhondda FC who offered him a chance to play in the Welsh valleys - Tonypandy, to be precise.

In Jimmy's 1957 auto biography he describes a long and gloomy journey to Tonypandy via steam train. It's interesting to hear that he could have travelled to Cardiff via Newcastle, without too much trouble.